Good Works, or Faith Alone?

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Scripture also says in James 2:19: Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

2 Corinthians 13:5 also states; Try your own selves if you be in the faith; prove ye yourselves. Know you not your own selves, that Christ Jesus is in you, unless perhaps you be reprobates?

This makes clear that one needs to examine ones self to see if you are living your faith. It is not a onetime event that was given us by Christ. Our faith a gift from God must be nourished. Good works, Sacraments, and the Church. So much more than faith alone.
:twocents:
 
Marc_Anthony said:
You took Trent out of context. I not only explained it, I gave you an official teaching of the Church explaining exactly what we believe and you came out and said we don’t believe that. Except that we do.
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Ah, I see the spin continues. If the plain reading doesn’t say what you want then we are at fault
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Um, I said he wasn’t justified before man. Which means that the only possible to way to take that passage in James is that Abraham was justified through his faith in God and the works that proved his faith TO God. If Abraham hadn’t done what God wanted-God’s works-it would have been false faith. He needed faith AND works.
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Yet your church says Faith plus works to get to Heaven which is a falsehood
 
workingman said:
Scripture also says in James 2:19: Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

2 Corinthians 13:5 also states; Try your own selves if you be in the faith; prove ye yourselves. Know you not your own selves, that Christ Jesus is in you, unless perhaps you be reprobates?

This makes clear that one needs to examine ones self to see if you are living your faith. It is not a onetime event that was given us by Christ. Our faith a gift from God must be nourished. Good works, Sacraments, and the Church. So much more than faith alone.
:twocents:
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Initial Salvation (Justification by Christ) is a one time event. Sanctification is a life long event
 
Spin?

I gave an official teaching of the Church interpeting it. The teaching was official. That is no spin.

So, if Abraham still had faith in God but decided not to listen to him-not do his works-he would’ve gotten to Heaven? In other words, if he hadn’t done what God asked him too he would have gotten to Heaven?

I don’t think that if Abraham said, “God, I have complete faith in you, but I don’t want do your works” he would be quite as revered as he is today.

Thus, Abraham needed faith and works. I said it. I have no idea what you’re talking about, actually. You talk about a “spin” yet we’re the ones stating exactly wehat we mean and you’re the one saying that we don’t really believe what we say we do. Which makes no sense.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Spin?

I gave an official teaching of the Church interpreting it. The teaching was official. That is no spin.
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No your interpretation was spin. Trent plainly says Faith plus Works earns heaven.
Marc_Anthony said:
So, if Abraham still had faith in God but decided not to listen to him-not do his works-he would’ve gotten to Heaven? In other words, if he hadn’t done what God asked him too he would have gotten to Heaven?
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Yes just as even Moses didn’t obey God precisely God never abandoned Moses.
Marc_Anthony said:
I don’t think that if Abraham said, “God, I have complete faith in you, but I don’t want do your works” he would be quite as revered as he is today.

Thus, Abraham needed faith and works. I said it. I have no idea what you’re talking about, actually. You talk about a “spin” yet we’re the ones stating exactly what we mean and you’re the one saying that we don’t really believe what we say we do. Which makes no sense.
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Before God nothing Abraham could do would get him to Heaven. If Abraham had not obeyed God he would been punished somehow, but works never, ever save anyone.

Your problem is the same that I had. I never wanted to believe the RCC believed faith plus, but as I studied more it was very clear that the RCC believes Christ is not enough and like you I tried for years to spin it so it never said that. It was not easy to admit the RCC was completely wrong and I had to leave and go follow Christ not a church.
 
God doesn’t abandon ANYBODY…and my interpretation was not the only one given. We gave an official interpretation sanctioned by the Church that you flatly said wasn’t true. Which made no sense.

Of course Abraham’s works don’t matter without faith. But he needs works to prove to God that it is justifying faith. As for Moses, the one time he doubted God and didn’t do what he asked (the whole thing with hitting the rock instead of asking it to bring out water) he was denied entrance into the promised land. He was still incredibly holy and followed God (almost) perfectly in every other instance, so that’s how he (presumably, eventually, though we don’t know this for sure) made it into Heaven. Also, this was before Jesus Christ instituted the Sacrament of Reconciliation and opened the gates of Heaven so that we could ask and be granted forgiveness of our sins from God.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
God doesn’t abandon ANYBODY…and my interpretation was not the only one given. We gave an official interpretation sanctioned by the Church that you flatly said wasn’t true. Which made no sense.

Of course Abraham’s works don’t matter without faith. But he needs works to prove to God that it is justifying faith.
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No he didn’t. God knew his heart and nothing Abraham could do would be good enough, there are no works that any one can do. Abraham didn’t need to prove anything to God.
 
Well then what’s the point of doing anything God says?

There is none. We’re saved anyway. I have faith in God. I know He loves me. No need to do good works, right? I mean, sure, they normally result from it but I know in my heart that God will love me regardless.

This type of thinking strikes me as harmful. And if you say that good works are a natural result of faith, then once again I assert that Catholics and Protestants’ views on justification can be reconciled. If you don’t agree with that, then frankly I like the Catholic teaching better.

Even if I didn’t like the Catholic teaching more, that is besides the point. I don’t follow the Church because I like certain doctrines and dogmas and think it’s fun to be in. I follow it because I believe it to be true.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
Well then what’s the point of doing anything God says?

There is none. We’re saved anyway. I have faith in God. I know He loves me. No need to do good works, right? I mean, sure, they normally result from it but I know in my heart that God will love me regardless.
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Because as Christian we have a heart of obedience, not from anything we do but from Christ coming in and changing us.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation; old things have passed away, and look, new things have come.

2 Cor. 5:17

We don’t obey God because we want to earn Heaven, we obey Him because we now love Him and desire to do His will. Still we could never do enough to gain Salvation, no work can justify us
Marc_Anthony said:
This type of thinking strikes me as harmful. And if you say that good works are a natural result of faith, then once again I assert that Catholics and Protestants’ views on justification can be reconciled. If you don’t agree with that, then frankly I like the Catholic teaching better.
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Good works are a consequence of Faith, we do them without thinking. In Catholic thought that doesn’t happen a man must have Faith plus Works to hope to get to Heaven. Our two views of Justification can not be reconciled because we believe Scripture that Justification before God comes by Faith in Christ alone. Catholics believe that one is Justified before God by Faith and Works. The Reformation was in part about that if our views were the same than there wouldn’t have been no problems in that area
Marc_Anthony said:
Even if I didn’t like the Catholic teaching more, that is besides the point. I don’t follow the Church because I like certain doctrines and dogmas and think it’s fun to be in. I follow it because I believe it to be true.
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I follow Christ who is more true than any church
 
I see James 2:19 was ignored. The devil’s believe also and tremble
 
I guess you don’t realize that the faith ALONE was an addition in the KJV right? Nowhere does it say faith alone in the original bible. You are following a wrong teaching.
 
Loboto-Me said:
I guess you don’t realize that the faith ALONE was an addition in the KJV right? Nowhere does it say faith alone in the original bible. You are following a wrong teaching.
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No it wasn’t. That is a myth, the word alone was added for clarification not for nefarious reasons on to the next myth 🤷
 
Who says that following Christ and the Church is incompatible? I believe Christ is true. I believe he established his onre true Church in order to spread the Truth. I believe Christ is the head and the Church is his body.

It’s silly to say that because I believe the Church is true I can’t believe Christ is true. In fact, it’s the opposite. I believe the Church is true BECAUSE I believe Christ is the Truth. Come on now, that’s faulty logic of the highest order that you used to make yourself sound somehow more righteous or religious than me.
 
So where did Luther get the authority to decide how people interpret Sacred Scripture? How did he get the authority to actually add words that weren’t in the original works?
 
Actually the words faith alone DO appear in the Bible.

“See how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

-James 2:24
 
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