Good Works, or Faith Alone?

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KathleenGee said:
I find Protestants really stuck on the idea of ‘works’.

So I am coming to the conclusion that this whole idea of ‘works’ is a spin.
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Its only a vocabulary disconnect. Protestants are comfortably talking about their Christian Service to God. Christian Service is EXPECTED of them, if they are the Reborn In Christ. But, when they hear a Catholic talk of Works … they automatically think of legalistic Pharisetical efforts to earn salvation by keep of Torah.
 
Kathleen and brb,

I agree with you both. Sometimes I feel like Catholics and Protestants just like to fight.

We always need to make sure we are clear in what we say and try to find common ground while never backing down from the Truth.

That’s what Catholic Answers is so good for–learning the Truth and how to explain it clearly.
 
That is why it is so important when the Word of God is used in such a way, people have to go to the origins of faith to see how the original people responded and developed their practices in response.

So I don’t get into it with quote vs quote…but I also am lacking in knowing more about our ancient liturgies and history in implementing the Oral Tradition of Christ and the development of the Mass.

You can’t divorce the Word of God from His people. You always have to take into context the times. And that there are different levels of truth…the greatest being the doctrines held in communion by the papacy in union with all the bishops (who represent us) that includes in this context the early church fathers. To draw on a great Catholic theologian alone doesn’t mean you are drawing on an ecclesial truth in practice. Many of them had ideas that were not in the spirit of Christ and the Church…or science either.
 
The member who was deleted (activechristian) and I had a very long discussion, where I tried to convince him tha (most) Protestants and Catholics believe the same thing. He adamantly denied it, insisting that no good Protestant would dare think that. Somebody even posted a quote from the CCC about the Catholic teaching on faith and works to prove that it was really the same as Protestant “faith alone” and he claimed that the Church didn’t teach that…which makes no sense since it was an official teaching.

Anyway, near the end of this long discussion I fianlly conceded that perhaps he was with that small group of Portestants who don’t believe the two can be reconciled. He said that no good Protestants would ever reconcile faith alone with faith and works but then said something like, “Good, now that we agree justification is through faith alone works stem from that!”

…Which is what Catholics believe. Because the obvious response is, “What if works don’t stem from that?”

Protestant: “Well, it’s not true Faith.”

Catholic: “So you need faith and works?”

Protestant: “No no. Only faith is necessary, works are a result.”

Catholic: “Right, and without works resulting fom it it’s not true faith. So, faith and works.”

…and the arguement became very circular. But I still think we believe the same thing.
 
Mark Anthony,

Yes, agree…was starting to glean this…they are indoctrinated to hold such ideas about the Church, or people hold on to the sins of certain clegy of the times of the Reformation, and they can’t get beyond that.
 
Thanks, Loboto-me for your link. Alot of good references, links and posts to review.
 
“indoctrination” takes place on both sides. RCIA, catechism, EWTN, and Catholic Answers could be accused of indoctrination just as easily as Protestant media and theologians.
KathleenGee said:
Mark Anthony,

Yes, agree…was starting to glean this…they are indoctrinated to hold such ideas about the Church, or people hold on to the sins of certain clegy of the times of the Reformation, and they can’t get beyond that.
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Ironically Catholics talk about works far more than Protestants in here. A Protestant says the word “faith” and “grace” and immediately he is hammered and peppered with James and Early Fathers fighting for works, works, works. Catholics are more stuck on works than Protestants by their own admition.
KathleenGee said:
Diana Leslie,

I find Protestants really stuck on the idea of ‘works’.

IF I look at the good the members do of parishes and faith communities…they are ALL doing good works in response to the Gospel.

So I am coming to the conclusion that this whole idea of ‘works’ is a spin.
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In response to your photo with your name, we live in different empires.

Luther did not want to break, but when he did, it became a freefall. Meaning, he was excommunicated…and it must have been very painful and hypocritical considering the corruption of the clergy.

I think the whole ‘works’ vs. faith and grace—which the CC says we are saved by grace alone – is Babel.

Corruption vs scruples.

So the work of ecumenism is how long are we going hold out on the past…

The Anglicans are drawing more and more to return to the Church and there is great progress with Lutherans.
 
I think this quot from as sermon sums it up quite well. Here it is let me know what you think.

“Instead, faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives
new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits,
our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t
stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good
works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many
words”.
 
Workingman,

That is ecumenism…thanks! I like the short prayer in the Breviary…:Lord, you have made us brethren, remove the Tower of Babel from our lives’…some thing to that effect.
 
workingman said:
I think this quot from as sermon sums it up quite well. Here it is let me know what you think.

“Instead, faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives
new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us
completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits,
our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with
it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this
faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t
stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone
asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without
ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an
unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good
works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.
Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many
words”.
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👍

Jon
 
Thank you Kathleen and John. I couldn’t find a better way to word it. People get so hung up on one over the other or where the emphasis should be. The fact of the matter is they go hand in hand.

Still Love M. Luther. The man is still quite insightful.:idea:
 
I think Catholics are accused of works…it seems that way to me.

I have been formally trained and have worked a little in RCIA…having taken care of my family…and I can’t say it is indoctrination rather than as initiation…for those seeking it.

People are asked to bring up any concern they have. There is absolutely no pressure. The person must freely choose to become a Catholic and go through the public initiation process where the members meet the candidates at Mass, welcome them and pray for them.

Indoctrination is the teaching of doctrine. We explain the nature of God, of Christ in particular and how Catholics relate to their faith.
 
JonNC said:
Do good works save us? No.
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I think MANY Protestants misunderstand this [the works thing]. No Catholic, at least that I know of, including myself, says works and works alone saves us. However, faith and works go hand in hand to bestow grace. For it is through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that we’re saved, and by no merit of our own. To say we’re saved by faith or works is to say that we’re responsible for our salvation. We aren’t responsible for our salvation. The only part we play is that God offers us the gift of salvation, we can accept it or deny it. None of us on earth are worthy of salvation. No one has the faith or works that can get them to Heaven. Only through Christ we are saved.
JonNC said:
Grace through faith in Christ saves us, but the regenerate are bound to do good works, in obedience to His will.
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How do you account for all of the un-saved people out there who do good works? Atheists, agnostics, pagans, etc… are always doing good works. If you’re a good human being, you’ll do good works simply because they’re the right thing to do for your fellow man. Doing good works has nothing to do with being saved!

Peace,

Jean
 
Jean_1958 said:
I think MANY Protestants misunderstand this [the works thing]. No Catholic, at least that I know of, including myself, says works and works alone saves us. However, faith and works go hand in hand to bestow grace. For it is through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that we’re saved, and by no merit of our own. To say we’re saved by faith or works is to say that we’re responsible for our salvation. We aren’t responsible for our salvation. The only part we play is that God offers us the gift of salvation, we can accept it or deny it. None of us on earth are worthy of salvation. No one has the faith or works that can get them to Heaven. Only through Christ we are saved.

How do you account for all of the un-saved people out there who do good works? Atheists, agnostics, pagans, etc… are always doing good works. If you’re a good human being, you’ll do good works simply because they’re the right thing to do for your fellow man. Doing good works has nothing to do with being saved!

Peace,

Jean
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Hi Jean,
I should have been more clear - all people can do “good works” by earthly standards. What makes good works of the regenerate good in God’s eyes is Grace.

Jon

EDIT: Jean, it wasn’t my intent to imply that Catholics believe works and works alone save.
 
As usual, putting words in my mouth and being presumptuous. You know your word choice isn’t charitable here and that you would be angered if a Protestant used that sad choice of words to describe your faith and beliefs. It’s the simple old addage–treat others as you’d like to be treated. It’s not nuclear physics, very simple stuff. Loaded language doesn’t make for a good argument, just theatre and dramatics to use as filler for a lack of substance.
Lapey said:
Thanks for the compliment! I agree, telling truth would be presentation, telling lies would be spewing. Glad we can agree.👍
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I’m not sure what Luther was thinking when he was excommunicated. He burned the papal bull of excommunication so he couldn’t have taken it that seriously. Only he knows.

Regarding Anglicans, if you do the math and look at the number of conversions with the ordinariates, it’s not as impressive as you think. Very few Anglicans have defected is the reality of the situation out on the ground. Not everyone is chomping at the bit to join the Catholic Church as some in here might think. My Anglican parish laughed it off and didn’t consider it for five seconds. None of the ACNA except for a handfull of priests have moved. Most of the movement has been from Anglo-Catholics in England who were marginalized and had precious few other options.
KathleenGee said:
In response to your photo with your name, we live in different empires.

Luther did not want to break, but when he did, it became a freefall. Meaning, he was excommunicated…and it must have been very painful and hypocritical considering the corruption of the clergy.

I think the whole ‘works’ vs. faith and grace—which the CC says we are saved by grace alone – is Babel.

Corruption vs scruples.

So the work of ecumenism is how long are we going hold out on the past…

The Anglicans are drawing more and more to return to the Church and there is great progress with Lutherans.
Click to expand...
 
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