Gorgeous

[AJV]

Id choose the Tridentine over the Sarum or Dominican any day…why? Because I agree with its spirituality. I agree with its prayers. I love its prayers…timeless prayers…whispered by priests in ancient churches for more than a thousand years.

That is ironic because the Dominican is in most ways an older version of the Roman liturgy.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

That is ironic because the Dominican is in most ways an older version of the Roman liturgy.

Well, If you have read the rest of my post…my point was exactly that something being ‘old’ or ‘reverent’ is not the grounds on which I choose my liturgical preference.

If I wanted the most ancient liturgy…id be in an Eastern Catholic Church right now.

But no…it is the Tridentine that I love. And its prayers that I have memorized and adore.

 

[Ham1]

If the NO Mass was intended to be celebrated the way yours supposedly is…why did they change it at all.

Why they changed isn’t really my decision. It was changed authoritatively. Period.

You expressed your opinion that you prefer it. That’s nice for you. But don’t tell me it’s somehow superior. It’s not. When you push your agenda, you do a disservice to everyone who prefers the old Mass and wants to see it said widely.

I fully support the Vatican and the Pope who advocate more Tridentine Masses and more reverent NO Masses. It’s too bad that you can’t see fit to do the same from your perspective.

Also, when you use words like “counterfeit” you further weaken your position as one who desires to be taken seriously. That’s no way to speak about the Holy Mass.

 

[AJV]

Well, If you have read the rest of my post…my point was exactly that something being ‘old’ or ‘reverent’ is not the grounds on which I choose my liturgical preference.

I was responding to the thousand year statement only. Nitpicking as usual

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Why they changed isn’t really my decision. It was changed authoritatively. Period.

You expressed your opinion that you prefer it. That’s nice for you. But don’t tell me it’s somehow superior. It’s not. When you push your agenda, you do a disservice to everyone who prefers the old Mass and wants to see it said widely.

I fully support the Vatican and the Pope who advocate more Tridentine Masses and more reverent NO Masses. It’s too bad that you can’t see fit to do the same from your perspective.

Also, when you use words like “counterfeit” you further weaken your position as one who desires to be taken seriously. That’s no way to speak about the Holy Mass.

I push my agenda?

I open a thread in the Traditional Catholicism forum about the beauty of a TLM video.

You come in and bring up the topic of “Well at my NO Church its pretty much the same.”

Alright…ill stop ‘pushing my agenda’.

But in order for you to practice what you preach…youd stop posting in this thread as well. Unless of course it has to do with the original topic…which is the beauty of the Tridentine Mass.

And on a side note…if you speak the truth and your parish celebrates Mass like they do in that video.

Thats is a very good thing for Holy Mother the Church.

 

[Ham1]

I didn’t push an agenda. I remarked that it resembled the beautiful liturgy at my parish. I wasn’t trying to start anything.

You claim you want this thread to be about the beauty of the Tridentine Mass, but you diverted it, not me. You diverted the thread when you then went out of your way to tell another poster to “never go back” to the NO liturgy and then later called that liturgy “counterfeit.” What do those comments have to do with the “beauty of the Tridentine”?

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

I didn’t push an agenda. I remarked that it resembled the beautiful liturgy at my parish. I wasn’t trying to start anything.

You claim you want this thread to be about the beauty of the Tridentine Mass, but you diverted it, not me. You diverted the thread when you then went out of your way to tell another poster to “never go back” to the NO liturgy and then later called that liturgy “counterfeit.” What do those comments have to do with the “beauty of the Tridentine”?

Seemed pretty straightforward to me…

She never saw a TLM before…she remarked that its beautiful…said she might go…I told her to go…and I jokingly (though it was a joke with a foundation in my personal beliefs) remarked…never go back.

If the TLM can make her cry and appreciate the liturgy…than why should she go back?

Anyways…comments dont translate well over the internet. So my apologies for whatever offense you took at that statement.

But I assure you…if I was going to push an agenda…Id do it much more clearly than above

 

[Ham1]

Seemed pretty straightforward to me…

She never saw a TLM before…she remarked that its beautiful…said she might go…I told her to go…and I jokingly (though it was a joke with a foundation in my personal beliefs) remarked…never go back.

If the TLM can make her cry and appreciate the liturgy…than why should she go back?

Anyways…comments dont translate well over the internet. So my apologies for whatever offense you took at that statement.

But I assure you…if I was going to push an agenda…Id do it much more clearly than above

Apology accepted. I didn’t get that it was a joke.

Thanks!

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Apology accepted. I didn’t get that it was a joke.

Thanks!

No. Thank you for expressing the true Christian virtue of understanding and not dragging out an arguement to uncharitable ends.

Which we both know happens all the time on these forums.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

It is a heresy to call the NO Mass (or any liturgy proposed by the Church) a “counterfeit.”

 

[James0235]

It is a heresy to call the NO Mass (or any liturgy proposed to the Church) a “counterfeit.”

What about calling it a “fabricated Liturgy”? I know of a German fellow who said something like that once.

James

 

[JKirkLVNV]

What about calling it a “fabricated Liturgy”? I know of a German fellow who said something like that once.

James

“Counterfeit” would imply that it’s fake. Do you alledge that it is unable to do what the Church says it is able to do?

And I wouldn’t take any bets on that German fellow doing away with the Pauline Rite. He’s seems quite content to celebrate it for the faithful, at the Holy See and wherever he goes.

 

[James0235]

“Counterfeit” would imply that it’s fake. Do you alledge that it is unable to do what the Church says it is able to do?

And I wouldn’t take any bets on that German fellow doing away with the Pauline Rite. He’s seems quite content to celebrate it for the faithful, at the Holy See and wherever he goes.

I’d really suggest you go back and read what I wrote.

I said nothing to imply that I believed the NOM was counterfeit. I do believe it was fabricated and is not really an organic development. In that belief I am in good company (the German fellow).

And I said nothing to indicate that I believed the aforementioned German fellow would do away with the Pauline Rite (or even that he should).

I quite often attend the NOM. On Ash Wednesday I attended 2 such Masses - one was absolutely beautiful and amazingly reverent. The other was full of Liturgical abuses, horrible music (of the “singing to ourselves about how great we are” variety), and no reverence - basically very tacky.

(I’d bet that forum members familiar with Central Ohio could probably guess the first parish. The second would probably be impossible to guess - it accurately describes most parish around here.)

And the made it clear that my post was at least partially in jest.

God bless,

James

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

I’d really suggest you go back and read what I wrote.

I said nothing to imply that I believed the NOM was counterfeit. I do believe it was fabricated and is not really an organic development. In that belief I am in good company (the German fellow).

And I said nothing to indicate that I believed the aforementioned German fellow would do away with the Pauline Rite (or even that he should).

I quite often attend the NOM. On Ash Wednesday I attended 2 such Masses - one was absolutely beautiful and amazingly reverent. The other was full of Liturgical abuses, horrible music (of the “singing to ourselves about how great we are” variety), and no reverence - basically very tacky.

(I’d bet that forum members familiar with Central Ohio could probably guess the first parish. The second would probably be impossible to guess - it accurately describes most parish around here.)

And the made it clear that my post was at least partially in jest.

God bless,

James

Yes I agree. The Novus Ordo came about unorganically.

And when I said counterfiet…im talking about the liturgy.

The NO Missal, in my opinion, is a type of ‘pretend-TLM’.

But the Eucharist is the same in the TLM and the NO.

It is the same Jesus in the Host. That part is not counterfiet…for me to say so would be heretical.

Its just the rubrics and text of the Mass in the NO…that I feel is a watered down version of the TLM.

 

[Ham1]

Since you guys brought up the “fabrication” quotation, here is what fabricate means:

“1. to make by art or skill and labor; construct: The finest craftspeople fabricated this clock.
2. to make by assembling parts or sections.
3. to devise or invent (a legend, lie, etc.).
4. to fake; forge (a document, signature, etc.).”

So, I have 2 questions:

1. Which of these meanings did Pope Benedict intend?
2. Perhaps more importantly, what was the german word used in his book and does it also share the 4th meaning of the word?

Does the word fabricate carry a negative meaning in other languages or is that negativity specific to the English language.

Any German speakers out there?

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Since you guys brought up the “fabrication” quotation, here is what fabricate means:

“1. to make by art or skill and labor; construct: The finest craftspeople fabricated this clock.
2. to make by assembling parts or sections.
3. to devise or invent (a legend, lie, etc.).
4. to fake; forge (a document, signature, etc.).”

So, I have 2 questions:

1. Which of these meanings did Pope Benedict intend?
2. Perhaps more importantly, what was the german word used in his book and does it also share the 4th meaning of the word?

Does the word fabricate carry a negative meaning in other languages or is that negativity specific to the English language.

Any German speakers out there?

When the quote is taken in context…it clearly shows the Holy Father’s discontent with the way the New Mass came about. The origins of the word fabricate become superflous when you consider the whole quote.

 

[Ham1]

When the quote is taken in context…it clearly shows the Holy Father’s discontent with the way the New Mass came about. The origins of the word fabricate become superflous when you consider the whole quote.

It is important because the word fabricate may have a much more negative meaning in english than the equivalent in german. Imagine if the word he used was translated as “constructed” or “created”. It would severely lessen the negativity.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’d really suggest you go back and read what I wrote.

I said nothing to imply that I believed the NOM was counterfeit. I do believe it was fabricated and is not really an organic development. In that belief I am in good company (the German fellow).

And I said nothing to indicate that I believed the aforementioned German fellow would do away with the Pauline Rite (or even that he should).

I quite often attend the NOM. On Ash Wednesday I attended 2 such Masses - one was absolutely beautiful and amazingly reverent. The other was full of Liturgical abuses, horrible music (of the “singing to ourselves about how great we are” variety), and no reverence - basically very tacky.

(I’d bet that forum members familiar with Central Ohio could probably guess the first parish. The second would probably be impossible to guess - it accurately describes most parish around here.)

And the made it clear that my post was at least partially in jest.

God bless,

James

Yes, it was QUITE the hoot now that I reread it.

The word I was addressing, however, was not “fabrication,” it was “counterfeit.”

 

[bear06]

When the quote is taken in context…it clearly shows the Holy Father’s discontent with the way the New Mass came about. The origins of the word fabricate become superflous when you consider the whole quote.

In all of his writings, the then Cardinal Ratzinger never suggested ditching the Novus Ordo and going back the the TLM. He and Fr. Fessio spent many years plugging the “Adoremus” version of the Mass. Yes, I can agree that he said fabrication but he certainly never would refer to an “Adoremus” style Mass as a counterfit of a TLM. He wants the implementation of the Mass as called for by Vatican II.

 

[lizaanne]

If the TLM can make her cry and appreciate the liturgy…than why should she go back?

Because I can appreciate the mass in both forms - and I have been to many NO masses that have left me in tears as well.

You see - the beauty is in the fact that Christ is present to me on the altar, not how he got there. Yes, the video is extremely beautiful and moving. But it does not lessen the fact, the reality, that Christ is still there in the NO mass - no less of Him than is present at the TLM.

In the end He is all I need. He would not be less glorious or less present if He were brought forth in a filthy hole in the corner of a concentration camp in the elements of a week old crust of bread. I’m sure that Saint Maximilian Kolbe would agree with me on this one.

You see - this is why this divisiveness is so horrible and wrong. I am convinced that it will tear our beloved Church at her seams. Traditional this and NO that - it only serves to divide us, and until we realize and respect the fact that we are truly One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and stop drawing lines, we will only continue to participate in the destruction of the Faith from the inside out.

~Liza