Gospel of Thomas...

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I did this earlier, but here’s a fuller comparison between the Greek and Coptic texts. For the moment, here’s P. Oxy. 654.

Nag Hammadi (Codex II):

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These are the hidden words that the living Jesus spoke and Didymus Judas Thomas wrote down.
(1) And He said, “He who finds the interpretation of these words will not taste of death.”

P. Oxy. 654:

Οιτοι οἱ (= Οὗτοι οἱ) λόγοι οἱ ἀπόκρυφοι οὓς ἐλά]
λησεν ΙΗϹ ὁ ζῶν καὶ ἔγραψεν Ἰούδας ὁ]
καὶ Θωμᾶ{ς} και είπεν ὃς ἄν τὴν ἑρμηνεί]
αν τὸν λόγον τοῦτον εὕρισκῃ θανάτου]
οὐ μὴ γεύσεταί -----

These are the [hidden] words [that] the living Jesus spoke an[d Judas who is] also Thomas [wrote down.]
(1) And He said, “[He who finds the interpretat]ion of the[se] words will certainly not taste [of death].”

===

Nag Hammadi (Codex II):

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(2) Jesus said, “Let him who seeks not stops seeking until he finds. And when he finds he will be troubled, and when he is troubled he will be astounded, and he will reign over the all (lit. ‘the all-of-it’).”

P. Oxy. 654:

-------- Λέγει ΙΗϹ]
Μὴ παυσάσθω ὁ ζητῶν τοῦ ζητεῖν ἕως ἂ]
εὕρη καὶ ὅταν εὕρῃ θαμβηθήσεται καὶ θαμ]
βηθεὶς βασιλεύσ{ει} καὶ βασιλεύσας ἀναπα]
ήσεται.

(2) [Jesus says,] “Let him who see[ks] not stop [seeking unti]l he finds. And when he finds [he will be astounded, **and] having been [astoun]ded he will reign, an[d having reigned] he will [rest.]”

===

Nag Hammadi (Codex II):

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(3) Jesus said this, “If those who lead you say to you, ‘Behold, the kingdom is in heaven,’ then the birds of the heaven will precede you. If they say to you this: ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. But the kingdom is within you and is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then they will know you, and you will know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are the poverty.”

P. Oxy. 654:

Λέγει Ἰη{σοῦ}ς· Ἐὰν]
οἱ ἕλκοντες {ὑ}μᾶς εἴπωσιν ὑμῖν· Ἰδοὺ]
ἡ βασιλεία ἐν οὐρανῷ ὑμᾶς φθήσεται]
τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἐὰν δ᾿ εἴπωσιν ὅ]
τι ὑπὸ τὴν γήν ἐστιν εἰσελεύσονται]
οἱ ἰχθύες τῆς θαλάσσης προφθάσαν]
τες ὑμᾶς· καὶ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ]
ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐ]σ̣τι κἀκτός· ὃς ἂν ἑαυτὸν]
γνῷ, ταύτην εὑρή
σει καὶ ὅτε ὑμεῖς]

ἑαυτοὺς γνώσεσθ{ε} εἴσεσθε ὅτι υἱοί]
ἐστε τοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ ζῶντος εἰ δὲ μὴ]
γνώσ{εσ}θε ἑαυτοὺς ἐν τῇ πτωχείᾳ ἐστὲ]
καὶ ὑμεῖς ἐστε ἡ πτωχεία]

(3) Je[sus] says, “[If] those pulling you [say to you, ‘Behold], the kingdom is in heaven,’ then the birds of the heaven [will precede you. If they say that] it is under the earth, then the fish of the sea [will enter it, preceding] you. And the [kingdom **((of God))] is within you ((and outside.)) He who] knows [himself] will find this. [And when you] know yourselves, [you will know that] you are [sons] of the [living] Father. [But if you] will [not] know yourselves, [you are] in [poverty] and you are the poverty.”
 
Nag Hammadi (Codex II):

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(4) Jesus said, “The man aged in days will not hesitate to ask a boy-child of seven days about the place of life and he will live. For many of the first will be last, and they will become a single one.”

P. Oxy. 654:

----- Λέγει Ἰη{σοῦ}ς]
Οὐκ ἀποκνήσει ἄνθρωπος παλαιὸς ἡμε]
ρῶν ἐπερωτῆσ{αι} παιδίον ἑπτὰ ἡμε]
ρῶν περὶ τοῦ τόπου τῆς ζωῆς και ζή]
σετ{αι}· πολλοὶ ἔσονται π̣ρῶτοι ἔσχατοι καὶ]
οἱ ἔσχατοι πρῶτοι καὶ εἰς ἓν καταντήσου- / ζωὴν αἰώνιον ἕξου-]
σιν

(4) [Jesus says,] “A m[an old in day]s will not hesitate to ask a b[oy-child of seven day]s about his place in [life and] he will [live.] For many of the f[irst] will be [last, **and] many of the last will be first, and they [will **become one ((or ‘have eternal life’?))].”

===

Nag Hammadi (Codex II):

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(5) Jesus said, “Know what is before your face, and what is hidden from you will be revealed to you. For there is nothing hidden that will not be made manifest.”

P. Oxy. 654:

-------- Λέγει Ἰη{σοῦ}ς Γνῶθι τὸ ὃν ἔμπροσ]
θεν τῆς ὄψεώς σου καὶ τὸ κεκαλυμμένον]
ἀπό σου ἀποκαλυφ{θ}ήσεταί σοι οὐ γάρ ἐσ]
τιν κρυπτὸν ὃ οὐ φανερὸν γενήσεται]
καὶ {τ}εθαμμένον ὃ οὐκ ἐγερθήσεται]

(5) Jesus says, “K[now what is be]fore your face, and [what has been hidden] from you will be reveal[ed to you. For there i]s nothing hidden that will not [be made] mani[fest] and (nothing) buried that will not [be raised up.]”

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Nag Hammadi (Codex II):

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(6) His disciples asked him, they said to him this, “Do you want us to fast? And how should we pray? Should we give alms? And what foods should we abstain from?” Jesus said this, “Do not lie, and what you hate, do not do. For all things are revealed in the sight of heaven. For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered which will remain without being uncovered.”

P. Oxy. 654:
  • Ἐξ]*ετάζουσιν αὐτὸν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ]
    λέ]γουσιν πῶς νηστεύσομεν καὶ πῶς προσ]

    *ευξόμ]*εθα καὶ πῶς ἐλεημοσύνην ποιήσο]
    μεν κα]ὶ τί παρατηρήσομεν περὶ τῶν βρω]

    *μάτω]*ν̣ λέγει Ἰη{σοῦ}ς μὴ ψεύδεσθε καὶ ὃ]
    τι μισ]εῖτ{ε} μὴ ποιεῖτ̣ε ὅτι πάντα ἐνώπ]
    ιον τ]ῆς ἀληθε]ίας ἀναφαίνεται οὐδὲν]
    γάρ ἐστι]ν ἀπ]οκεκρ̣υμμένον ὃ οὐ φανερὸν]
    ἔσται]
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(6) [His disciples] question Him [and s]ay, “How [should we] fast, [and how should] we [pray] and how [should we give alms, a]nd what should [we] observe [concerning the foods?”] Jesus says, “[Do not lie, and what] you [hate], do not do. [For all things are made visible before the] truth. [For there is nothing] hidden [that will not become visible.”]

(Alt.: [His disciples] question Him [and s]ay, “How [should we] fast, [and how should] we [pray] and how [should we give alms, a]nd what should [we] observe [concerning the foods?”] Jesus says, “[Do not lie, and what] you [hate], do not do. For all things will be full of] truth be[fore heaven. [For there is nothing] hidden [that will not become visible.]”)
 
Nag Hammadi (Codex II):

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Jesus said, “Blessed is the lion that the man will eat so that the lion becomes human. And cursed is the man whom the lion will eat, and the lion will become human.”

P. Oxy. 654:

Μα]κ̣άριός] ἐστιν …]
…]ν̣ ἔστ*…]*
…]** ὃ̣ν*…]*

Bless[ed] is …]
…]
…]

The linen shroud from Oxyrhynchus:

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Jesus said, “Nothing is buried that will not be raised up.” +
 
Just a side note. Referring to ‘gnostics’ is the same as referring to ‘Protestants’: there are different groups who only hold a few of things in common such as the belief that matter is evil, and the belief in the necessity of secret knowledge which grants emancipation. In everything else (tenets, ritual, etc.), they often differ wildly. So if one wants to speak of ‘gnostics’, I say that we’ve got to specify which gnostics we are talking about. Is it the Sethians? The Valentinians? The Borborites? The Carpocratians? The Ophites? The Mandaeans? The Manichaeans? The Cainites? The Basilidians? The Cerinthians?

Personally I think that while Thomas does convey (or can be read as conveying) gnostic ideas I don’t think we can pin it to any particular group (the text doesn’t have any identifying characteristics), and it doesn’t exactly fit the pattern of blatantly gnostic texts (like the Pistis Sophia or the Gospel of Philip). Just my nitpicking behavior cropping up, but I think ‘proto-gnostic’ might be a good adjective.

P.S. There was actually a heavily-edited copy of Plato’s Republic at Nag Hammadi.
My personal favorite is the Carpocratians.
 
catholic.com/quickquestions/did-the-church-suppress-the-gospel-of-thomas-because-it-was-afraid-of-what-it-contain
yet another gnostic-influenced “gospel” written in the second or third century, long after the canonical gospels were penned. A few of these sayings are genuine because they were taken from the canonical Gospels. Others combine bits of things said in the true gospels. And still others are wholly made up, not only lacking any basis in the gospels but also contradicting things taught in them. The so-called Gospel of Thomas is a fake. It was written between one and two centuries after the apostle Thomas’s death. It contains some authentic sayings of Jesus because it is partially based on the canonical Gospels. It doesn’t belong in the Bible.
catholic.com/quickquestions/why-isnt-the-gospel-of-thomas-in-the-bible
The writing to which you refer is spurious and was composed by a member of a gnostic sect, probably in the late second century. The so-called Gospel of Thomas really isn’t a Gospel at all, but a collection of 114 sayings or logia attributed to Jesus. Approximately one-fourth of these sayings are the same as those found in the canonical Gospels. Of the remainder, some are very similar to those in our Gospels, but have been adapted for gnostic purposes. Others are completely gnostic in origin and form.
catholicexchange.com/what-is-the-gospel-of-st-thomas/
The “Gnostic Gospel” is an earlier text, perhaps dating to the mid second century, but it has only been accepted and preserved by heretics (i.e., in the Nag Hammadi Library, a collection of Gnostic texts). All of these so-called “Thomas Gospels” contain problems and heresies that cannot be reconciled with Church teaching. The “Gnostic Gospel” informs the reader that it contains the “secret words” of Jesus written down by “twin Judas Thomas,” which, when their interpretation is known, grant immortality. Like many Gnostic writings, the “Gnostic Gospel of Thomas” is almost unintelligible with unexplained symbolism. many sayings are nothing like Gospel sayings: “Where there are three gods, they are gods; where there are two or one, I am with him." it is difficult to give it a non-Gnostic reading, and probably impossible to give it an orthodox Christian reading. This “Gospel” represents neither the teaching of Jesus Christ nor the teaching of His Church, and has never been considered an authentic Gospel.
carm.org/questions-about-the-gospel-of-thomas
Jesus: A wise teacher: divine, but not necessarily human. Jesus is not the Messiah.
Salvation: By learning secret knowledge
The Nature of God: many gods.
Physical Body: bad
View of Women: anti-feminine
Just look at how this “gospel” begins:
These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke …] Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death.
Seriously :confused: Is that the good news? Figure it our or you are dead? :confused:

And now, some quotes that are supposed to come from our Beloved.
 
Thanks for the posts patrick. One thing that concerns me is how good it actually sounds. It does have a grounding in reality. I find it hard to trust the text when it was found with other texts that have to be wrong.
 
Thank you for confirming why I should not bother to read it again.
 
On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?
🤷
Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.
Heaven and earth came into being for the sake of the apostle James? :confused:
And he took him and withdrew and told him three things. When Thomas returned to his companions, they asked him, “What did Jesus say to you?” Thomas said to them, “If I tell you one of the things which he told me, you will pick up stones and throw them at me; a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up.”
Compare with the real Gospel:
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.
If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits.
🤷
when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter [the kingdom]."
?:coffeeread:
When you disrobe without being ashamed …] then [will you see] the Son of the Living One
This one is actually very disturbing.
Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me.
?:coffeeread:
he who has found the body is superior to the world
:confused:

I would never consider these (or anything in these texts) to be sayings of the Lord unless the Church unequivocally states that this is so. Until someone finds an official declaration of the Church saying that these statements are truly from our Lord, I will stay away from them as if they were most harmful deceptions.
 
To continue for a bit: P. Oxy. 655.

Nag Hammadi (Codex II):

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(26) Jesus said this, “You see the speck in your brother’s eye, but you do not see the beam which is in your own eye. When you cast out the beam from your own eye, then you will see outward to cast out the speck from your brother’s eye.”

P. Oxy. 655:

…καὶ τότε διαβλέψεις
ἐκβαλεῖν τὸ κάρφος
τὸ ἐν τῷ ὀφθαλμῷ
τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ σου

(26) “…] and then you will see to cast out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.”

Nag Hammadi (Codex II):

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(27) “If you do not abstain from the world, you will not find the kingdom. If you do not make the sabbath a sabbath, you will not look upon the Father.”

P. Oxy. 655:

Λέγει
Ἰ{ησοῦ}ς· Ἐὰν μὴ νηστεύση
τ{ε} τὸν κόσμον οὐ μὴ
εὕρητ{ε} τὴν βασιλεί
αν τοῦ θ{εο}ῦ· καὶ ἐὰν μὴ
σαββατίσητε τὸ σάβ
βατον οὐκ ὄψεσθε τὸ{ν}
π{ατέ}ρα.

(27) Jesus says, “If you do not fast from the world, you will not find the kingdom of God. And if you do not sabbatize the sabbath, you will not see the Father.”

Nag Hammadi (Codex II):

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(28) Jesus said this, “I stood to my feet in the midst of the world and in flesh I appeared to them. I found all of them drunk; I none thirsting among them. And my soul was afflicted for the sons of men, for they are blind in their heart, and they do not see. For they have come into the world empty, (and) again empty they seek to leave the world. But now they are drunk. When they have cast off their wine, they will repent.”

P. Oxy. 655:

Λέγει Ἰ{ησοῦ}ς· Ἔσ]την
ἐν μέσῳ τοῦ κόσμου
καὶ ἐν σαρκ{{ε}}ὶ ὤφθην
αὐτοῖς καὶ εὗρον πάν
τας μεθύοντας καὶ
οὐδένα εὗρον δ{ε}ιψῶ
ν]

τα ἐν αὐτοῖς καὶ πο
νεῖ ἡ ψυχή μου ἐπὶ
τοῖς ϋἱοῖς τῶν ἀν{θρώπ}ων
ὅτι τυφλοί εἰσιν τῇ καρ
δίᾳ αὐτῶν καὶ οὐ] βλ̣έπ̣-
ουσιν…]

(28) Jesus said, “I stood in the midst of the world and in flesh I appeared to them. And I found all drunk, and I found none thirsting among them. And my soul grieves for the sons of men, for they are blind in thei[r] hearts and [they] do [not] see …]”
 
Just a side note. Referring to ‘gnostics’ is the same as referring to ‘Protestants’: there are different groups who only hold a few of things in common such as the belief that matter is evil, and the belief in the necessity of secret knowledge which grants emancipation. In everything else (tenets, ritual, etc.), they often differ wildly. So if one wants to speak of ‘gnostics’, I say that we’ve got to specify which gnostics we are talking about. Is it the Sethians? The Valentinians? The Borborites? The Carpocratians? The Ophites? The Mandaeans? The Manichaeans? The Cainites? The Basilidians? The Cerinthians?
Or you could do as I did–and base your argument on the two things they do hold in common. . . . 🙂
 
I’m sure all those people who didn’t “achieve gnosis” are going to burn though right?

Is every mentally challenged person therefore doomed to hell? What if you cannot comprehend the “gnosis” or “mystical hidden super secret knowledge”? Do you then go to hell? What about people like me who think that mysticism stuff is demonic? If I am wrong and have been deceived do i burn for it according to a gnostic?

I have read Gnostic texts that indicate a “god” that is above our God and the real God doesn’t know about their “god”. What? I am not even going to address how stupid that sounds. They also believe that Jesus was sent from the “god” that does not exist that is above, according to them, the real 1 true God.

I have read a bit of gnostic material. I feel I am worse of for even considering their outrageous ideas.

As for Thomas… It fits perfectly into Gnostic ideas. It was found with Gnostic texts. It talks of secret mystical knowledge that is the only way into heaven.

Its not terrible unrepentant sinners that go to hell it is stupid people. duh how did we miss this (sarcasm).
 
I’m sure all those people who didn’t “achieve gnosis” are going to burn though right?

Is every mentally challenged person therefore doomed to hell? What if you cannot comprehend the “gnosis” or “mystical hidden super secret knowledge”? Do you then go to hell? What about people like me who think that mysticism stuff is demonic? If I am wrong and have been deceived do i burn for it according to a gnostic?
As mentioned, I don’t think that there’s a clear-cut concept of an afterlife in gnosticisms. The emphasis was more on people in the material world being in a state of slavery and ignorance, and breaking free of that ignorance through gnosis. Some groups (like the Sethians, the Valentinians, the Basilideans or the Manicheans) apparently believed that the ‘ignorant’ souls are reincarnated in some way when they die. In this they are either influenced by Greco-Roman thought or (such as in the case of groups like the Manicheans) Eastern philosophies like Buddhism or Hinduism. This is however by no means a universal belief. The Coptic Apocalypse of Peter and the Pistis Sophia do imply a sort of damnation, but the latter work also proposes that souls are reincarnated over and over until they finally are able to achieve gnosis.
 
As mentioned, I don’t think that there’s a clear-cut concept of an afterlife in gnosticisms. The emphasis was more on people in the material world being in a state of slavery and ignorance, and breaking free of that ignorance through gnosis. Some groups (like the Sethians, the Valentinians, the Basilideans or the Manicheans) apparently believed that the ‘ignorant’ souls are reincarnated in some way when they die. In this they are either influenced by Greco-Roman thought or (such as in the case of groups like the Manicheans) Eastern philosophies like Buddhism or Hinduism. This is however by no means a universal belief. The Coptic Apocalypse of Peter and the Pistis Sophia do imply a sort of damnation, but the latter work also proposes that souls are reincarnated over and over until they finally are able to achieve gnosis.
Listen here smart guy I like what I said and I’m sticking to it.

lol jk once again thank you for the post. You seem to know a lot more than me about this.
 
I have read Gnostic texts that indicate a “god” that is above our God and the real God doesn’t know about their “god”. What? I am not even going to address how stupid that sounds. They also believe that Jesus was sent from the “god” that does not exist that is above, according to them, the real 1 true God.
Another standard feature of most gnosticisms is that they are of the idea that the material world was made by someone else other than the true God. Some groups, like the Manicheans, have a dualist thinking. In this scenario, two opposing forces, light and darkness, fight against each other; in the ensuing scuffle certain elements of the light are trapped in the darkness. Others, like the Sethians, hold a qualified dualism in that the world is thought to have been made by a lesser divinity different from, and subordinate to, the true God. Here, the two sides aren’t equal: the material world and its creator is inferior to God and the spiritual realm wherein He dwells.

I’m out of time so I’ll continue later.
 
I don’t see how they can possibly reconcile this with our Lord telling us to pay attention to the physical world so that we can see what is happening in the spiritual.

Also, how could they ever think God’s light could be “trapped”?

Are they intentionally heretical or just confused?
 
To continue a bit.

Still others have a sort of either qualified dualism or monism: it is arguable whether the being who made the universe (the title Demiurge, from Plato, is sometimes used for this) is divine/semi-divine or not. This can be seen in some Valentinian thinking. There the Demiurge is not so much malevolent but ignorant: his flawed creation stems not from any ‘evil’ in his part but due to his imperfection and ignorance of the existence of higher powers.
 
Last night, my roommate was looking this particular Gospel up and intends on memorizing it. I say good for him, but I’d like to know why this Gospel was taken out of the Bible and why does it predate the other four gospels?
Because it never was in the Bible. The so called Gospel of Thomas is a Manichæans document from the 4th or 5th century. The authentic, canonical Gospels were all written in the same century as Christ lived.
 
Because it never was in the Bible. The so called Gospel of Thomas is a Manich口ans document from the 4th or 5th century. The authentic, canonical Gospels were all written in the same century as Christ lived.
It isn’t. Some Fathers reported that a ‘gospel of Thomas’ was being used by the Manicheans, but the surviving fragments of our Thomas (we aren’t entirely sure whether these are the same text - perhaps a different version from the Greek and the Coptic text we have - or a different one) date from the 3rd century (in the case of the three Oxyrhynchus papyri) and the 4th (Codex II from Nag Hammadi).
 
I don’t see how they can possibly reconcile this with our Lord telling us to pay attention to the physical world so that we can see what is happening in the spiritual.

Also, how could they ever think God’s light could be “trapped”?

Are they intentionally heretical or just confused?
Now this is whese things get more confusing.

The Manicheans believed that there were two realms. One was the World of Light, ruled by the Father of Greatness together with his five Shekhinas (divine attributes of light), and the other war the World of Darkness, ruled by the King of Darkness. The King of Darkness notices the presence of the World of Light, becomes greedy for it and attacks it. In response, the Father of Greatness calls upon the Mother of Life. The Mother of Life sends her son, Original Man, off to war, armed with five shields of light - the light of the five Shekinas. Eventually, however, Original Man is defeated and becomes trapped, the shields having been used as bait for the light-hungry inhabitants of the World of Darkness.

The Father then calls upon the Living Spirit, who calls upon his five sons. He also sends a Call to the Original Man; in response, the Original Man sends back an Answer to the Father. (Call and Answer thus become two deities in the Manichean pantheon.) The Mother of Life, the Living Spirit and his five sons begin creating the universe out of the bodies of the evil beings of the World of Darkness, together with the light that they have swallowed. All in all, ten heavens and eight earths are created, all consisting of various mixtures of the evil material beings from the World of Darkness and the swallowed light. The sun, moon, and the stars are considered to be remnants of the stolen light, which gradually make their way back to the World of Light as time passes.

The Father of Greatness then begins the third phase of creation: light is recovered from out of the material bodies of the male and female evil beings and demons, by causing them to become sexually aroused in greed, towards beautiful images of the beings of light, such as the Third Messenger and the Virgins of Light. The plan somewhat backfires though, because as soon as the light came out of them and fell down to Earth, the demons tried to eat them back. (Some of the tainted light which were not eaten again became fallen angels known as the ‘Abortions’.) After consuming huge quantities of light, the demons then gave in to lust. Their unions produced Adam and Eve, who both had the light within them.

The Father then sent Radiant Jesus to earth to awaken Adam and to enlighten the couple about the source of the light within them, but Radiant Jesus’ teaching fell on deaf ears. Adam and Eve had children, and the light they had was divided and became trapped into more bodies. Which is where Mani comes in: he claims to be a prophet sent by the World of Light to reveal the true source of the spiritual light imprisoned within material bodies.

I’ll post about a few other creation myths later.
 
Hey Patrick these are very interesting posts, thanks! 🍿

I’ll save them as a reference, for sure.

(And, by the way, praying for your intentions ;))
 
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