Gospels don't say Jesus was crucified, scholar claims

[SonCatcher]

Which epistles did you have in mind?

1 Corinthians 1:18 uses the same Greek word the Gospels use for “cross”, “stauros”.

My point was that he spent all that time “studying” and ignored a large portion of source material. What else did he ignore in drawing his conclusions?

 

[Garyjohn2]

ok ok ok ok ok…I think I got this figured out guys. Before Christ, stauros usually meant stake. It wasn’t until after Christ that the word was used for cross.

And the Gospels were written…after Christ! Case closed.

I am so smart.

 

[estesbob]

His point, though, is that before Christ, stauros overwhelmingly signified stake, rather than cross. Given that, his argument that the Gospels do not explicitly argue for a “cross-fixion” is cogent.

The claim that stauros was overwhelmingly used to signify a stake before Christ is false.

 

[Ahimsa]

Please point out the instances it uses it as such, and which translators translate it as such in those cases.

You’re whistling in the dark here.

You’ll have to ask the folks at the Oxford English Dictionary for that sort of information. They said it; not me.

 

[rivera01]

I wonder how the “scholar” would explain this piece of graffitti from the 1st century:

3.bp.blogspot.com/_26yUQSefzhA/SslD2xnoW-I/AAAAAAAAAfs/H9N31omsiOM/s320/Christian+graffiti.jpg

 

[Contarini]

I wonder how the “scholar” would explain this piece of graffitti from the 1st century:

3.bp.blogspot.com/_26yUQSefzhA/SslD2xnoW-I/AAAAAAAAAfs/H9N31omsiOM/s320/Christian+graffiti.jpg

I don’t think that’s first century.

Edwin

 

[scipio337]

You’ll have to ask the folks at the Oxford English Dictionary for that sort of information. They said it; not me.

Link, please?

The only sites I can find are subscription only.

I would be interested to see if the etymology is as you state it.

 

[momor]

The Shroud of Turin shows that Jesus was pierced with nails.

 

[choy]

ok ok ok ok ok…I think I got this figured out guys. Before Christ, stauros usually meant stake. It wasn’t until after Christ that the word was used for cross.

And the Gospels were written…after Christ! Case closed.

I am so smart.

you may claim your prize at the entrance :yeah_me:

 

[magdelaine1173]

Whatever this scholar preaches, it is not looked upon in agreement with the Roman Catholic Church or the Popes approval. He is just what he claims to be, a scholar. I don’t see how a body can be ‘‘suspended’’ on vines if there isn’t a crossbar to tie the vines to. Whether he was nailed and hung or just hung, it was an extremely painful death. Not to mention humiliating. Being stripped naked is not the proper thing to do to the human body either when millions can see someone hang in their presence while the person is dying. Being mocked, and spit upon is not a term that was mentioned in my days of going to ccd either. But Christ was spit on and mocked.
I prefer to trust my Catholic Church’s teaching that crucifixtion was brutal, involved using nails AND ropes or vines for suspension of our Lord, and that metal was driven through His palms into His wrists and into His feet. Along with the slashing of His side, the impailing of His heart, and the crowning of thornes into the vagus nerve in His head to cause Him very severe pain. And that the Passion of the Christ by Mel Gibson has truth to it. And that those who do not believe that crucifixtion is painful, demeaning and execution of the body in the most painful way possible, they had best get their noses out of the books and ask Catholics around the world what they were taught as Catholics, and read an encyclical or two of the Pope’s upon the crucifixtion.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
Thank goodness for Sacred Tradition which has paased down to us the correct visual of how Christ was killed.

You seem to have missed my point. I guess I wasn’t very clear.

Regardless of what term was appropriate to use in the text, and how clear or vague it might seem to us today, the fact is that from the apostolic times forward the image has been Christ on the “Cross” and not on a “stake”. This fact, coming from ancient, apostolic, Sacred Tradition, in this matter, should be sufficient to clarify that, at least ca 33 AD in Palestine, crucifixion meant hanging from a cross shaped upright stake.

In the long run though I find the whole thing to hardly be worth 4 pages of responses, though I must admit that I like reading about the different words and their roots/meanins/etemology etc.
In the end though - it has no real bearing on our faith walk - or at least it shouldn’t.

Peace
James

 

[Ahimsa]

Link, please?

The only sites I can find are subscription only.

I would be interested to see if the etymology is as you state it.

I don’t think the OED is available online for free.

 

[SteveVH]

 

[Hipeeon]

**John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands **and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”

Not to make anyone look dumb…but I don’t know why such simple & blatant lies by this guy can even get past the editorial press. Obviously, there are tons more people who do not know The Bible than we can imagine.

The word crucified may not be mentioned…but being nailed certainly was. So, if I say you were not hit by the ongoing car…but the car slammed flat into you and you showed injuries for it…I suppose its not the same thing??? Goodness!..Why do people even bother with such nonsensical claims?

 

[Ahimsa]

**John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands **and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”

Not to make anyone look dumb…but I don’t know why such simple & blatant lies by this guy can even get past the editorial press. Obviously, there are tons more people who do not know The Bible than we can imagine.

The word crucified may not be mentioned…but being nailed certainly was. So, if I say you were not hit by the ongoing car…but the car slammed flat into you and you showed injuries for it…I suppose its not the same thing??? Goodness!..Why do people even bother with such nonsensical claims?

One can be nailed to a stake.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

The writers of the Gospels all made Several Huge Assumptions -

1. That almost all of their readers & hearers would be familiar with Psalm 22 (the version before the Scribal Changes);
2. That almost all of their readers & hearers would be familiar with Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12 (The “Suffering Servant Hymn”);
3. That almost all of their Readers & Hearers were familiar with the Standard Roman Method for Executing Criminals, Subversives & Revolutionaries - CRUCIFIXION… and, That they didn’t need to have the Crucifixion described in gory detail to know that Jesus Christ was CRUCIFIED;
4. As the Gospel of Matthew was written before 50 AD and Mark & Luke both written before 60 AD (Based on the science of Papyrology), when many of those who saw our Lord’s Crucifixion were still alive, there was no need to describe it - because they had seen it, and Matthew’s Gospel was a reminder of what they had seen…

Historically -

1. When St. Helena & friends looked into the Tomb of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, what they found were the objects we would expect if the Gospels were true - Crossbeam, 4 nails, “helmet” of thorns (gigantic intertwined thorns), etc…
2. This was AFTER the Tomb had been buried by Hadrian in 135 AD, and had stayed buried for nearly 200 years…
3. The Early Church used Symbols in her worship & Liturgy

The only things we get wrong are
Skinny Christ - Jesus was a Carpenter - Stone-Mason & the man on the Shroud of Turin reflects that;
Clean Christ - Jesus on the Cross was a MESS - Jewish Law prohibited cleaning up that mess because His death was violent;
Nails through Palms - They were actually through the middle area of the wrists per shroud & forensics…

In Christ, Michael

PS: As Catholics, we are required to listen to the WHOLE Scriptural Testimony, and to the Apostolic Teaching & not just to the Gospels. and, The Scriptures and the Apostolic Teaching both teach that Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ gave Himself over to evil men so He could be CRUCIFIED, and that He Rose again on the Third Day.

 

[Hipeeon]

One can be nailed to a stake.

So? The point? Crucified on a cross is not the same as crucified on a stake? Because one has a capital “C” and the other a lower “c” ?

The cross object is mentioned many times in the Bible, and historians have also shown that these nailing acts (crucifixion), were performed on these crosses.

This thread is wasting everybody’s time. Saying that Christ was not crucified but nailed on the cross until death is a waste of everyone’s time.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Wm Scott -

Matthew 10:38 - And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. (ESV) Greek uses “Stauros” (Strongs Number 4716) which according to Strongs was the Cross…
Matthew 16:24 - Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” (NIV) Greek uses “Stauros” (Strongs Number 4716)…
Matthew 27:32 - As they went out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. They compelled this man to carry his cross. (ESV) Greek uses “Stauros” (See above)

Matthew 27:40-42 - “Look at you now!” they yelled at him. “You said you were going to destroy the Temple and rebuild it in three days. Well then, if you are the Son of God, save yourself and come down from the cross!” The leading priests, the teachers of religious law, and the elders also mocked Jesus. ** He saved others,” they scoffed, “but he can’t save himself! So he is the King of Israel, is he? Let him come down from the cross right now, and we will believe in him!" (NLB) Greek uses “Stauros” ( See above)

Mark 8:34 - Then Jesus called the crowd to himself along with his disciples. He said to them, “Those who want to follow me must say no to the things they want, pick up their crosses, and follow me." (GOD’S WORD) Greek uses “Stauros” (See above)
Mark 15:21 - They pressed into service a passer-by coming from the country, Simon of Cyrene (the father of Alexander and Rufus), to bear His cross. (NASB) Greek uses “Stauros” (See above)
Mark 15:30-32 - Well then, save yourself and come down from the cross!” The leading priests and teachers of religious law also mocked Jesus. “He saved others,” they scoffed, “but he can’t save himself! Let this Messiah, this King of Israel, come down from the cross so we can see it and believe him!” Even the men who were crucified with Jesus ridiculed him. (NLT) Greek “Stauros” (See above)

I want you to note that the word our Lord used for what we need to carry (or the one the Divinely Inspired Apostles believed translated what He said) is the same for what he was nailed to. Either our Lord meant what he said (& what the Apostles & the Church believe He meant), or he believed we were to carry around a bunch of stakes!

I think we know the answer to that, because only one really makes any sense.
Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[wwolverine]

The author is only talking about the Gospels, not the whole NT.

In Matthew 10:38, for instance, the word “cross” in Greek is “stauron”, which means “an upright stake”, as well as a “cross”. The author argues that, thus, the Gospels do not explicitly talk about a T-shaped cross.

Ahimsa, todays scripture reading was
Scripture: John 20:24-29

24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.” 26 Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

We Christians believe in the above and hence we are more Blessed.

 

[wwolverine]

Wm Scott -

Matthew 10:38 - And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. (ESV) Greek uses “Stauros” (Strongs Number 4716) which according to Strongs was the Cross…
Matthew 16:24 - Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” (NIV) Greek uses “Stauros” (Strongs Number 4716)…
Matthew 27:32 - As they went out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. They compelled this man to carry his cross. (ESV) Greek uses “Stauros” (See above)

Matthew 27:40-42 - “Look at you now!” they yelled at him. “You said you were going to destroy the Temple and rebuild it in three days. Well then, if you are the Son of God, save yourself and come down from the cross!” The leading priests, the teachers of religious law, and the elders also mocked Jesus. * He saved others,” they scoffed, “but he can’t save himself! So he is the King of Israel, is he? Let him come down from the cross right now, and we will believe in him!"* (NLB) Greek uses “Stauros” ( See above)

Mark 8:34 - Then Jesus called the crowd to himself along with his disciples. He said to them, “Those who want to follow me must say no to the things they want, pick up their crosses, and follow me." (GOD’S WORD) Greek uses “Stauros” (See above)


Mark 15:21 - They pressed into service a passer-by coming from the country, Simon of Cyrene (the father of Alexander and Rufus), to bear His cross. (NASB) Greek uses “Stauros” (See above)
Mark 15:30-32 - Well then, save yourself and come down from the cross!” The leading priests and teachers of religious law also mocked Jesus. “He saved others,” they scoffed, “but he can’t save himself! Let this Messiah, this King of Israel, come down from the cross so we can see it and believe him!” Even the men who were crucified with Jesus ridiculed him. (NLT) Greek “Stauros” (See above)

I want you to note that the word our Lord used for what we need to carry (or the one the Divinely Inspired Apostles believed translated what He said) is the same for what he was nailed to. Either our Lord meant what he said (& what the Apostles & the Church believe He meant), or he believed we were to carry around a bunch of stakes!

I think we know the answer to that, because only one really makes any sense.
Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael