Gospels don't say Jesus was crucified, scholar claims

[wisdomseeker]

Another one trying to make a name for himself.
this so called scholar is saying that Jesus carried a cross, was nailed to the Cross, yet He was not Crucified. what kind of ignorance is this?

what do you call a man who was nailed to a Cross and died?

 

[Ahimsa]

Ahimsa, todays scripture reading was
Scripture: John 20:24-29

24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.” 26 Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

We Christians believe in the above and hence we are more Blessed.

All of that can also happen with someone nailed to a stake.

The author is making a strictly empirical argument about linguistic meaning. He himself believes Jesus was crucified on a T/t-shaped structure.

 

[wwolverine]

All of that can also happen with someone nailed to a stake.

The author is making a strictly empirical argument about linguistic meaning. He himself believes Jesus was crucified on a T/t-shaped structure.

So what you say is that this discussion of 4 pages is just a waste of time, as it was never meant to be?

The author writes something which he himself does not believe?

 

[estesbob]

All of that can also happen with someone nailed to a stake.

The author is making a strictly empirical argument about linguistic meaning. He himself believes Jesus was crucified on a T/t-shaped structure.

I am not aware of the Romans usng torture stakes to exectue people. in addition death by crucifixion occured by asphyxiation… As they got weaker they could no longer use their legs to keep their upper body from slumping and cutting off their air supply. This is why Pilate ordered their legs broken-so as to speed up their death. There would have been no reason to do this if they had been tied or nailed to a stake

 

[estesbob]

So what you say is that this discussion of 4 pages is just a waste of time, as it was never meant to be?

The author writes something which he himself does not believe?

I am surprised that this was realated as smething new since it has bee the teaching of JWs since 1832

 

[jmcrae]

I see what happens when our “sacred iconic” representations of an event 2000 years removed is questioned.

Since the rest of the New Testament (that is, the testimony of other eye-witnesses) states that the method was crucifixion, the “ambiguity” of the Gospels is thus cleared up, and with no need to reference Tradition, even.

So, unless “sola scriptura” is reducing itself even further to “the four Gospels alone” I think the faith of ordinary Christians, including sola scriptura Protestants, has nothing to be “challenged by” in this work of “scholarship.”

 

[Ahimsa]

So what you say is that this discussion of 4 pages is just a waste of time, as it was never meant to be?

The author writes something which he himself does not believe?

The author argued “The word ‘stauros’ is not limited to a T/t-shaped structure; in fact, up until around the time of Christ, ‘stauros’ meant mostly a stake. So, when the NT uses ‘stauros’, that use of the word in itself says nothing about whether a stake or a T/t-shaped structure was involved.”

Now, the author makes that simple statement. That statement is separate from the question of whether Christ was actually crucified on a T/t-shaped structure.

One can believe Christ was indeed crucified on a T/t-shaped structure, and acknowledge that ‘stauros’ had more than one meaning.

 

[Ahimsa]

As they got weaker they could no longer use their legs to keep their upper body from slumping and cutting off their air supply. This is why Pilate ordered their legs broken-so as to speed up their death. There would have been no reason to do this if they had been tied or nailed to a stake

One can easily imagine a stake on which a person is nailed and tied, such that a weakening of legs led to asphyxiation.

 

[_L]

this is what happens when someone in the 21st century thinks his language skills make his judgment superior to people who actually lived during that time and knew what the gospels said. sheesh.

 

[Contarini]

Since the rest of the New Testament (that is, the testimony of other eye-witnesses) states that the method was crucifixion, the “ambiguity” of the Gospels is thus cleared up, and with no need to reference Tradition, even.

So, unless “sola scriptura” is reducing itself even further to “the four Gospels alone” I think the faith of ordinary Christians, including sola scriptura Protestants, has nothing to be “challenged by” in this work of “scholarship.”

With all due respect, I don’t think you get the argument. The point concerns the meaning of “stauros” and the cognate verb. Obviously wherever that word is used, the same argument will apply.

I wish someone would bother to explain why this is important.

Edwin

 

[momor]

With all due respect, I don’t think you get the argument. The point concerns the meaning of “stauros” and the cognate verb. Obviously wherever that word is used, the same argument will apply.

I wish someone would bother to explain why this is important.

Edwin

It might be a good example to use on SS protestants who think they got all of their religion out of the Bible. Ask them if they think Jesus was crucified on a t cross then ask them to show you where it says that in the Gospels. They might have to actually acknowledge that they got something from Tradition (gasp)!

 

[adstrinity]

I wonder how the “scholar” would explain this piece of graffitti from the 1st century:

3.bp.blogspot.com/_26yUQSefzhA/SslD2xnoW-I/AAAAAAAAAfs/H9N31omsiOM/s320/Christian+graffiti.jpg

It’s a fake. I’m not saying that as the “scholar”, I’m saying that I think that has been debunked as graffitti to take at face value.

 

[scipio337]

I don’t think the OED is available online for free.

So, do you have a subscription? How can you claim it says that, if you can’t copy and paste a link?

You’ve done nothing to refute my claims. If you’ve ever studied and ancient language, you’d realize how “out there” these claims are.

 

[Ahimsa]

So, do you have a subscription? How can you claim it says that, if you can’t copy and paste a link?

Many public libraries have an OED.

I’ll paste the first and second definitions of “cross” in the OED. Notice that, even in English, a “cross”, in definition #1, may mean a mere stake used for criminal punishment:

1. A kind of gibbet used by the ancients (and in later times by some non-Christian nations); a stake, generally with a transverse bar, on which they put to a cruel and ignominious death certain criminals, who were nailed or otherwise fastened to it by their extremities.

The general sense does not appear in Eng. so early as the specific (2), being mostly of modern occurrence in works on Ancient History: but early mention of the cross occurs also in Christian Martyrology and Saints’ Lives. In the Vulgate crux is applied widely to any gibbet or gallows on which malefactors were hung, and is there also literally rendered cros, crosse by Wyclif.

a1300 Cursor M. 21533 (Cott.) He fand tua crosses [v.r. croices]. 1382 WYCLIF Gen. xl. 19 Pharao shal…honge thee in the crosse. Esther v. 15 Aman…comaundide to be maad redi an hei cros. 1460 J. CAPGRAVE Chron. (1858) 60 Andrew was…martired on a crosse. 1483 Cath. Angl. 84 To do on Crosse, crucifigere. 1741 EARL OF HARDWICKE in Athenian Lett. (1792) II. 115 Apollonides the physician was condemned to the cross, and executed just before we left Susa. 1827 HEBER Hymn, ‘The Son of God’, Twelve valiant saints, their hope they knew, And mock’d the cross and flame. 1844 THIRLWALL Greece VIII. 205 The body of Cleomenes was flayed and hung on a cross.

2. spec. a. The particular wooden structure on which Jesus Christ suffered death, believed to have consisted of an upright post, with a horizontal crossbar; the holy rood. (Often written with capital C.)

 

[scipio337]

Many public libraries have an OED.

I’ll paste the first and second definitions of “cross” in the OED. Notice that, even in English, a “cross”, in definition #1, may mean a mere stake used for criminal punishment:

1. A kind of gibbet used by the ancients (and in later times by some non-Christian nations); a stake, generally with a transverse bar, on which they put to a cruel and ignominious death certain criminals, who were nailed or otherwise fastened to it by their extremities.…

That’s still not a link. The same info can be found on any JW or “name of God” sect website.

yaim.org/Articles/deathonacross.htm

My Princeton University Latin Dictionary (3rd ed, 1992) and Latin dictionary from University of Notre Dame (5th edition 2004) both list “cux” simply as “cross”.

There’s also this:

Oxford English Dictionary, Λήμμα: “Cross”

1. A kind of gibbet used by the ancients (and in later times by some non-Christian nations); **a stake generally with a transverse **bar, on which they put to a cruel and ignominious death certain criminals, who were nailed or otherwise fastened to it by their extremities.

1. spec. a. The particular wooden structure on which Jesus Christ suffered death, believed to have consisted of an upright post with a horizontal crossbar.

el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%AE%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7:Titulus

Given the Liddell and Scott Lexigraph, the accounts in the Epistle of Barnabas, St. John Chrysostom, Irenaeus and others, this argument doesn’t really have any legs unless one is willing to throw out all conventional scholarship.

 

[Ahimsa]

That’s still not a link. The same info can be found on any JW or “name of God” sect website.

Public libraries still exist, I’ve heard.

There’s also this:

1. A kind of gibbet used by the ancients (and in later times by some non-Christian nations); a stake generally with a transverse bar, on which they put to a cruel and ignominious death certain criminals, who were nailed or otherwise fastened to it by their extremities.

That’s from the OED. Notice the word “generally” – which means that, even in English, “cross” may mean “stake”, as seen in Wyclif’s translation of Genesis 40:19, in which he uses “cross”, but other translations use “stake”.

Genesis 40:19 (Wyclif): Pharao shal…honge thee in the crosse
Genesis 40:19 (NAB): within three days Pharaoh will lift up your head and have you impaled on a stake…

 

[scipio337]

Public libraries still exist, I’ve heard.

My guess is that you’re not at a public library, and you did’t type the post from free-hand.

Sorry, the historical consensus and linguistic consensus is “cross” for both “σταυρός” and “crux” is cross.

One lone historian attempt at getting tenure really does nothing in the face of 2,000 years of historical evidence and precedent.

 

[Nine_Two]

My guess is that you’re not at a public library, and you did’t type the post from free-hand.

Sorry, the historical consensus and linguistic consensus is “cross” for both “σταυρός” and “crux” is cross.

One lone historian attempt at getting tenure really does nothing in the face of 2,000 years of historical evidence and precedent.

The Greek word can mean both cross or stake, additionally the author of the study himself said that he himself accepts that Christ was crucified, his point was the bible does not explicitly say it. If anything he provided an argument for the Holy Tradition which many protestant churches are throwing away.

 

[swariffin]

Dear brother Ahimsa,

Perhaps you can dig further. Historically, how did the Roman executed the prisoners in the land of Judea during Jesus’ time?

 

[Ahimsa]

Dear brother Ahimsa,

Perhaps you can dig further. Historically, how did the Roman executed the prisoners in the land of Judea during Jesus’ time?

From my perspective, Jesus died on a T/t-shaped cross, just like in the photos.

The author is simply suggesting that, if one rejects Christian “Tradition” (as many Protestants tend to do), one cannot prove – from the Greek Gospels alone – that Jesus died on a T/t-shaped cross.