Got Milk? Got Ethics?

[Sean_Boyle]

I am only trying to share why this choice resonates with my faith, what motivates me - what resonates with me. I can only say that 5 years ago I didn’t know anything about the issues of factory farming - after learning what I have learned I believe I had to make changes and try to inform others - for some people it resonates, for others it doesn’t.

I wondered if there were something that if you learned it - that might cause you to make a change too?

What exactly are you trying to tackle with your choice to be vegan. Factory Farms or animal cruelty?

animal cruelty is against the law for a reason. The sad fact of life for some of us is that we count on other people to produce our food. Some are good at heart and some are struggling.

Here is my big picture point…The percentage of food producers that abuse animals for greed or fun is the same if you are buying from them or if I am.

You can generalize all you want but you can’t get around that fact, but it won’t change the fact. You can try to minimalize the amount of animal cruelty that exists, we all do, but you can’t change the overall percentages of animal abusers in this world and you can’t be certain that each of your food producers is a good one or their suppliers are.

I’ve learned enough to know that God is calling me to, appreciating all food and where is comes from. Making fast clean kills when necessary not letting any of the animal go to waste. That is what God calls me to do.

Is there something that if you learned, you would see that your choice may just be a phase in your growth?

 

[4elise]

What exactly are you trying to tackle with your choice to be vegan. Factory Farms or animal cruelty?

animal cruelty is against the law for a reason. The sad fact of life for some of us is that we count on other people to produce our food. Some are good at heart and some are struggling.

Here is my big picture point…The percentage of food producers that abuse animals for greed or fun is the same if you are buying from them or if I am.

You can generalize all you want but you can’t get around that fact, but it won’t change the fact. You can try to minimalize the amount of animal cruelty that exists, we all do, but you can’t change the overall percentages of animal abusers in this world and you can’t be certain that each of your food producers is a good one or their suppliers are.

I’ve learned enough to know that God is calling me to, appreciating all food and where is comes from. Making fast clean kills when necessary not letting any of the animal go to waste. That is what God calls me to do.

Is there something that if you learned, you would see that your choice may just be a phase in your growth?

Thanks Sean - I appreciate your comments - and your observations. It isn’t that my not eating meat or dairy will reduce the number of factory farms, I didn’t have that big an appetite to make that big a difference, I realize! (joke) – but - I do believe that even as one - I need to make choices that reflect what I think is the right choice.

You are certainly right to appreciate your food and be grateful to God for it - I am as well.

What could I learn that would make me think this is just a phase in my growth? I think I would have to learn that it takes the same resources to produce the plant and animal based diet - that a plant based diet caused more pollution than an animal based diet, that workers who produced a plant based diet were exposed to the same or greater dangers than the workers in slaughterhouses / commercial fishing ----

I know I am only one. I know I couldn’t possibly make a dent in the issue. But I also think I need to make sure that my actions reflect what I have learned, even if it is counter cultural - even if - even here among other Catholics - people make accusations that it means I care more about animals than people - and I find that I need to defend this position when some just get angry -

At 54, if anything, the phase that I see this in my growth is finding additional ways to LIVE my faith so that my daily choices actually reflect my faith, fair trade coffee, trying to avoid products made in China, etc.

So again - Sean - is there something - that if you learned it - you would make a change to your diet? The answer may be no. Could be that you think any kind of actions taken to bring food to the market is ok - I do not think gratitude means that we should ignore where and how our food comes to us.

Is it possible that you stay engaged in this discussion because there is something about it that also pulls on you - or is it only to refute my opinion?

 

[4elise]

Buy as much food as you can from local growers and beekeepers.

**Go Local!! **

thanks for keeping bees… I read somewhere that bees are really in danger - boy our world would change dramatically if we lose these little most important pollinator!!

 

[Newbie2]

Sigh…

Another “animal rights” thread. I’d like once, just once to see a thread that strictly addressed animal welfare rather than argue over “rights”. It always seems to be the big, bad companies are mistreating these poor animals. Bad companies. Bad companies!

That’s how I see these threads directed. What I find lacking is a reasoned discussion about what reforms can reasonable be instituted, given the reality of corporate farming, the demand for animal products that’s not going away, even a few hundred thousand people become vegans overnight.

The premise always seems to be Big companies, bad, therefore they should stop being bad. How about “here are some solutions” rather than “if they have legs, they need to run, wings to fly, fins to swim, etc. etc.” Reasonable solutions rather than Garden-of-Eden thinking. Compromise solutions rather than all-or-none.

Yes, I’ve read some of the major authors and remain unconvinced of their *a priori *arguments on animal rights. Lindzey, Jones, etc. are pretty much all the same to me.

Carry on, all.

 

[4elise]

Sigh…

Another “animal rights” thread. I’d like once, just once to see a thread that strictly addressed animal welfare rather than argue over “rights”. It always seems to be the big, bad companies are mistreating these poor animals. Bad companies. Bad companies!

That’s how I see these threads directed. What I find lacking is a reasoned discussion about what reforms can reasonable be instituted, given the reality of corporate farming, the demand for animal products that’s not going away, even a few hundred thousand people become vegans overnight.

The premise always seems to be Big companies, bad, therefore they should stop being bad. How about “here are some solutions” rather than “if they have legs, they need to run, wings to fly, fins to swim, etc. etc.” Reasonable solutions rather than Garden-of-Eden thinking. Compromise solutions rather than all-or-none.

Yes, I’ve read some of the major authors and remain unconvinced of their *a priori *arguments on animal rights. Lindzey, Jones, etc. are pretty much all the same to me.

Carry on, all.

There have been some advances and you are right - we should not ignore the positive changes!!

Many states are eliminating - or scheduling for elimination at some date future - gestation crates / battery cages / tail docking / — and some of these things have been ‘fought for’ by us crazy vegans!

For me, and I think for many others who have shared their reason for moving to a plant based diet it is not only the animals welfare issue - issues of pollution, resources, workers —

I agree with you - we should all be trying to make this industry a better one - even if we don’t eat meat, dairy, eggs, etc… because as you say ---- not everyone will embrace a plant based diet to be sure

Blessings

 

[Jolly_Joe]

PETA attacks monks for their farming practices. They are called a factory farm for both chickens and milk though they only have 100 dairy cows.

secure.peta.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=2723

A good question if you ever talk to the PETA people about their complaints is that they are calling for the “ethical” treatment of animals, so how could chickens be raised for eggs and slaughter in a manner that they consider ethical and how could cattle be milked and slaghtered in a manner they consider ethical.

The answer of course is there is no way that animals can be used for food in a manner PETA considers ethical. Many don’t even consider keeping a dog or cat as a pet ethical.

 

[sidbrown]

Of course they do. Let’s consider what a “right” is. Rights are bestowed by one party onto another party. Animals have rights because we gave them rights; we just need to give them more rights.

There was a time when women had no rights. The Women’s Liberation movement changed that. For example, in the USA women gained the right to vote in 1920. Similarly the Civil Rights movement gave rights to people of color and children’s rights gave rights to children, Prior to the bestowal of rights upon all of the people, women, people of color, and children had no rights. Now, the animal rights movement is recognizing that animals deserve rights too. These may not be the exact same rights as humans have, but they are still rights. Consider, for example, the fact that children have rights, but they do not have the same rights as adults. For example, children do not have the right to vote.

Currently, there are laws against animal abuse. These laws give animals the right to be free from cruelty and impose penalties on humans who violate these rights. The laws against animal cruelty are not merely laws against harming a person’s pet, which may be considered property. These laws also protect stray animals, which are no one’s property.

I think that animals should be treated in a decent manner. Otherwise you are being cruel and abusive, which is wrong.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Is it possible that you stay engaged in this discussion because there is something about it that also pulls on you - or is it only to refute my opinion?

My primary purpose is to engage in discussion, to highlight inconsistencies in what is pass off as “the faith” so individuals that wish to learn about “the faith” here won’t confuse The Faith with a personal opinion tied to faith.

I’ve seen several comments that resemble something like this: “How can a faithful Catholic continue to eat meat when they see the effect of factory farming or animal abuse?”

That sort of question, questions “the faith” not a personal understanding. Personal understanding don’t amount to The Faith.

“Vegan” is a slippery slope on many fronts for the faithful. Sort of like pray labyrinths.

 

[4elise]

My primary purpose is to engage in discussion, to highlight inconsistencies in what is pass off as “the faith” so individuals that wish to learn about “the faith” here won’t confuse The Faith with a personal opinion tied to faith.

I’ve seen several comments that resemble something like this: “How can a faithful Catholic continue to eat meat when they see the effect of factory farming or animal abuse?”

That sort of question, questions “the faith” not a personal understanding. Personal understanding don’t amount to The Faith.

“Vegan” is a slippery slope on many fronts for the faithful. Sort of like pray labyrinths.

Well, I believe I have tried to be clear, and if I have been otherwise, I beg your forgiveness - my choice to omit meat, dairy, fish, eggs etc… because of the many factors related to factory farming, (pollution, resources, animals treated like commodities) - it is a way that I believe I can live my faith.

I do not believe all people are required to do likewise.

I would agree that any choice one makes, has the potential to lead us closer to God or away - and one should always be mindful of this, examining self motivation, etc.

Wishing you a blessed Lent.

 

[4elise]

My primary purpose is to engage in discussion, to highlight inconsistencies in what is pass off as “the faith” so individuals that wish to learn about “the faith” here won’t confuse The Faith with a personal opinion tied to faith.

I’ve seen several comments that resemble something like this: “How can a faithful Catholic continue to eat meat when they see the effect of factory farming or animal abuse?”

That sort of question, questions “the faith” not a personal understanding. Personal understanding don’t amount to The Faith.

“Vegan” is a slippery slope on many fronts for the faithful. Sort of like pray labyrinths.

P.S. — not wanting to sound overly persistent - this was the question that I was hoping you might answer:

• is there something - that if you learned it - you would make a change to your diet - to omit meat or dairy or eggs or fish??

The answer may be no. Could be that you think any kind of actions taken to bring food to the market is ok, the more ‘efficient’ the better - and again - personally I do not think gratitude means that we should ignore where and how our food comes to us.*

 

[Sean_Boyle]

• is there something - that if you learned it - you would make a change to your diet - to omit meat or dairy or eggs or fish??

The answer may be no*. Could be that you think any kind of actions taken to bring food to the market is ok, the more ‘efficient’ the better - and again - personally I do not think gratitude means that we should ignore where and how our food comes to us.

answer paraphased from a previous post: God speaking through his Church telling all that a vegan diet is the only one that is acceptable or pleasing to God.

Or the whole farming industry would have to be proven equally sinful in there actions to provide food to us.

This of course would mean the your food source is just as polluted. The whole industry is guilty of fostering over-consumption both vegan produces and the meat, diary and poultry industries. One industry is not more guilty, not possible. Vegan produces aren’t better people as a whole. Pride may lead some to believe that they are. The reality is greed and cruelty among the vegan producers is at the same percentage level as the rest of the food industry. Your alienated one part of the food industry for your self sacrifice. What good does that do? The farmers that grow your US raised soy beans shoot deer in their bean fields and leave them to rot. They are driven by the same greed as meat producers. You can’t dispute that fact.

Most people today seem to lazy or selfish or both to produce there own food and to hunt for it. Many will say to that point, well I don’t have the time or the means to move to where I can produce my own food. That excuse proves my point. lazy and selfish.

I produce some of my own food, and I hunt for meat as well. I have distanced myself from the food industry, more so than many.

What prevents you from hunting for meat if you are against the meat industry??

It could be that you would never hunt and kill an animal for food. Does that point to a bigger reason other than being against the meat producers and animal cruelty? What is that underlying reason for not eating meat?

 

[CPA2]

hacres.com/home

“Hallelujah Acres® is a non-denominational Christian ministry that provides education, products, services, and other resources to help people everywhere understand and practice God’s ways to ultimate health. We hope that you will find both the information and inspiration to get on the road to health and to stay healthy for life.”

This is the vegan lifestyle that I follow. It is a vegan diet with 85% raw food and only 15% cooked food.

 

[4elise]

answer paraphased from a previous post: God speaking through his Church telling all that a vegan diet is the only one that is acceptable or pleasing to God.

Or the whole farming industry would have to be proven equally sinful in there actions to provide food to us.

This of course would mean the your food source is just as polluted. The whole industry is guilty of fostering over-consumption both vegan produces and the meat, diary and poultry industries. One industry is not more guilty, not possible. Vegan produces aren’t better people as a whole. Pride may lead some to believe that they are. The reality is greed and cruelty among the vegan producers is at the same percentage level as the rest of the food industry. Your alienated one part of the food industry for your self sacrifice. What good does that do? The farmers that grow your US raised soy beans shoot deer in their bean fields and leave them to rot. They are driven by the same greed as meat producers. You can’t dispute that fact.

Most people today seem to lazy or selfish or both to produce there own food and to hunt for it. Many will say to that point, well I don’t have the time or the means to move to where I can produce my own food. That excuse proves my point. lazy and selfish.

I produce some of my own food, and I hunt for meat as well. I have distanced myself from the food industry, more so than many.

What prevents you from hunting for meat if you are against the meat industry??

It could be that you would never hunt and kill an animal for food. Does that point to a bigger reason other than being against the meat producers and animal cruelty? What is that underlying reason for not eating meat?

Ummm… well I too have a small garden, and grow some of my own food - and No - I won’t hunt because I do not need to kill an animal for my diet - I do fine without having to do that -

Do I know that the fields where the organic soy comes from to make my tofu in fact has some farmer killing deer to let them rot, no, I do not. Do you? I do know that many hundreds of thousand chickens are raised in what I consider to be unnecessarily cruel - so I don’t eat chicken or eggs or turkey — I do know that commercial fishing is terribly dangerous taking many human lives each year - and farm grown fish causes water pollution - so I don’t eat fish — I do know that the amount of resources taken to raise a pound of beef or pork can go further if used to feed people directly, (water & grain) so I don’t eat beef or pork - I’ve looked into this quite a bit, I’m not a kid - and I made this change beyond my 5th decade ---- because I believe that the choice makes sense in light of my Catholic faith - it feels to me like it would be selfish for me not to be vegan — I know not everyone makes this connection and this choice - I can only share why I do.

I for one think your approach to hunting if you want meat is certainly preferential to getting it from a factory farm. I agree people are quite removed from where their food comes from - and should learn, and perhaps if they want meat should do exactly what you do - they should be directly involved in getting it to the table.

So, even though you haven’t answered directly - should I assume from your reply that there would be nothing that you could learn - *short of the Catholic Church saying you had to * — about how your food comes to you that would cause you to pause and reconsider?