grace and dependant origination

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billcu1

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It sounds to me like Jesus came to save us from continual suffering. Take for example the 12 links of dependant origination and the deluded mind. We can’t save ourselves but grace instills divine virtues we can’t obtain. Does this make sense to anyone. Nagarjuna and Shantideva seem to agree.
 
Jesus came to save us from judgment for our sins, something we ourselves were not capable of doing. Where is that in all of the Twelve Links of Dependent Origination?
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Jesus came to save us from judgment for our sins, something we ourselves were not capable of doing. Where is that in all of the Twelve Links of Dependent Origination?
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As buddhism teaches we need someone that is ahead of us (like Jesus) who can create a “pure land” like Dewachen. As Jesus said “I go to prepare a place for you”. A place where we can go to get out of this endless suffering. It from beginingless time has been ignorance (buddhism) and christianity doesn’t seem to IMO reach as far. “In the beginning” for example. I took a buddhist vow before my baptism as a catholic and I don’t see the conflicts. I guess that’s from knowledge. Karma creates consciousness. It would be the Karma level that Jesus acts on to forgive our sins.

HTH
 
billcu1 said:
As buddhism teaches we need someone that is ahead of us (like Jesus) who can create a “pure land” like Dewachen. As Jesus said “I go to prepare a place for you”. A place where we can go to get out of this endless suffering. It from beginingless time has been ignorance (buddhism) and christianity doesn’t seem to IMO reach as far. “In the beginning” for example. I took a buddhist vow before my baptism as a catholic and I don’t see the conflicts. I guess that’s from knowledge. Karma creates consciousness. It would be the Karma level that Jesus acts on to forgive our sins.
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Why do you need Buddhism when you have Christ? Is Christ not enough?

You do understand that Buddhism, at least some forms of Buddhism, are rather atheistic in nature and are more a way of life than a religion? Forms of Buddhism that are actually religious or of a religion would clearly be contradictory to Christ. Can you demonstrate, from the scriptures of both religions, that they are compatible?
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Why do you need Buddhism when you have Christ? Is Christ not enough?

You do understand that Buddhism, at least some forms of Buddhism, are rather atheistic in nature and are more a way of life than a religion? Forms of Buddhism that are actually religious or of a religion would clearly be contradictory to Christ. Can you demonstrate, from the scriptures of both religions, that they are compatible?
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I have studied and even been buddhist for many years and took my vow before I was baptized as a catholic. I have never seen atheistic buddhism. The church may like to say that or misunderstand. It is non-theistic. There is not even a mention of a one higher being. to deny something you have to have a position on it. Christ is enough. If you read Theological Germanica you will see that all sin is is turn from the unchanging to the changing. My questions are very deep. As far as the bible in a lot of ways it to me raises more questions than answers. Not in all cases though for the church has the tradition to interpret.
I might be able to demonstrate from scriptures if that’s what you need but you might not be ready to see these things. I would have to write many posts on many forums to try to get you to understand. There is nothing higher than truth. And if you’ll read about truth you just don’t take what’s handed to you and accept it you seek and study. A way of life is what we need not a “religion”. To simply call catholicism a “religion” is missing the boat on everything. My catholicism is not a religion but a way of life.

god bless
 
A Christian already has spiritual truth - Jesus Christ.

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” [John 8:31-32]
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
A Christian already has spiritual truth - Jesus Christ.

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” [John 8:31-32]
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I really don’t think there’s a difference in the buddha and Jesus. Like there’s no difference in you and I there’s only god. We are just to blind to see this now.
 
billcu1 said:
I really don’t think there’s a difference in the buddha and Jesus. Like there’s no difference in you and I there’s only god.
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Jesus is God, and you cannot possibly compare him to anyone, let alone say there isn’t a difference.

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” [John 8:58]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." [John 14:6]
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Jesus is God, and you cannot possibly compare him to anyone, let alone say there isn’t a difference.

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” [John 8:58]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." [John 14:6]
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The real god, real self, real people. It’s all god. Read St. Agustine and check out that link I showed you. Relax and take a deep breath. Open your mind and be prepared to study and learn. Don’t teach.

GB
 
billcu1 said:
The real god, real self, real people. It’s all god. Read St. Agustine and check out that link I showed you. Relax and take a deep breath. Open your mind and be prepared to study and learn. Don’t teach.

GB
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“The real god, real self, real people. It’s all god.” Is this a teaching of the Catholic Church?

By the way not everything Augustine believed was embraced by the CC teaching office. 🙂
 
billcu1 said:
The real god, real self, real people. It’s all god. Read St. Agustine and check out that link I showed you. Relax and take a deep breath. Open your mind and be prepared to study and learn. Don’t teach.
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I did open my mind and was prepared to study and learn. The difference is I studied the word of God, where my salvation is, not going to other religions.

Can you quote me a passage of God’s word which confirms your statement, “the real god, real self, real people. It’s all god”?
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
I did open my mind and was prepared to study and learn. The difference is I studied the word of God, where my salvation is, not going to other religions.

Can you quote me a passage of God’s word which confirms your statement, “the real god, real self, real people. It’s all god”?
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“Contemplation is a long, loving, listening, joyful look at the real God, at our real self,'at real people and at the real world. Down in the depths of contemplation, we play no games… we are dealing there “in the sacred sanctuary of the core of our being,” says St. Augustine. Simply stated, it is a personal experience of God, a direct and immediate contact with the divine. It is as Moses experienced…seeing God face-to-face, not through a concept or an image but directly through faith.”

From the link I showed you. I have looked at what you call the word of god the bible. I don’t let anyone give me anything hit me on the head with it and say “read this and nothing else” that’s dangerous. I have seen the bible changed around too many times over the years to believe that. If you believe as you say then you have all you need and need no more. I myself need more. I study the church’s moral theology and mystical theology. Click the link in the message from earlier.

God Bless
Teresa Avilla, Francis of assis and thomas Aquinas are good to study along with the bible. It will agreeto the bible and what you have allowed yourself to see as truth. But that’s not truely an open mind the open mind always questions, speculations and is in flux.
 
billcu1 said:
“Contemplation is a long, loving, listening, joyful look at the real God, at our real self,'at real people and at the real world. Down in the depths of contemplation, we play no games… we are dealing there “in the sacred sanctuary of the core of our being,” says St. Augustine. Simply stated, it is a personal experience of God, a direct and immediate contact with the divine. It is as Moses experienced…seeing God face-to-face, not through a concept or an image but directly through faith.”

From the link I showed you. I have looked at what you call the word of god the bible. I don’t let anyone give me anything hit me on the head with it and say “read this and nothing else” that’s dangerous. I have seen the bible changed around too many times over the years to believe that. If you believe as you say then you have all you need and need no more. I myself need more. I study the church’s moral theology and mystical theology. Click the link in the message from earlier.

God Bless
Teresa Avilla, Francis of assis and thomas Aquinas are good to study along with the bible. It will agreeto the bible and what you have allowed yourself to see as truth. But that’s not truely an open mind the open mind always questions, speculations and is in flux.
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What I am picking up here is a sense that you feel you are enlightened and anyone disagreeing with you is only doing so because they are not enlightened and have not been endowed with your secret knowledge. This amounts to gnosticism. As a Catholic you are required to believe everything Holy Mother Church teaches, and it does not embrace Buddhism as part of its belief system. You say Christ is sufficient but you act as though he is not. You need something more. What more so you need?
 
billcu1 said:
It sounds to me like Jesus came to save us from continual suffering.
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Human suffering can only be explained by the fact that God permits horrible suffering for many millions of people in this life, yet others live content happy lives. That says (to me anyway) that grace only exists in this life for a select few. Grace can only exist universally in heaven.
 
billcu1 said:
“Contemplation is a long, loving, listening, joyful look at the real God, at our real self,'at real people and at the real world. Down in the depths of contemplation, we play no games… we are dealing there “in the sacred sanctuary of the core of our being,” says St. Augustine. Simply stated, it is a personal experience of God, a direct and immediate contact with the divine. It is as Moses experienced…seeing God face-to-face, not through a concept or an image but directly through faith.”

From the link I showed you. I have looked at what you call the word of god the bible. I don’t let anyone give me anything hit me on the head with it and say “read this and nothing else” that’s dangerous. I have seen the bible changed around too many times over the years to believe that. If you believe as you say then you have all you need and need no more. I myself need more. I study the church’s moral theology and mystical theology. Click the link in the message from earlier.
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Bill;

You say that it’s dangerous to say “read this and nothing else.” I never said that, however. What I did say was that salvation is only found in scripture, not any where else. It is our sole source of spiritual fulfillment, guidance and nourishment.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. [2 Ti 3:16-17]

You say, however, “I myself need more.” My friend, that is a dangerous thing to say. You essentially say “God’s word is not enough.” You essentially say, “Christ is not enough.” You cannot say with the Psalmist: “I delight in your law” (Ps 119:70); and “If your law had not been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction” (Ps 119:92). You cannot say with Christ in the Sermon on the Mount: “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied” (Mt 5:6), that righteousness being the righteousness of Christ.

My friend, you need to truly consider your salvation. A person who has been regenerated would never seek out and try to find spiritual satisfaction in other religions and concepts. Carefully consider these things, and ask yourself, on the day of judgment, when you stand before God, will you truly be justified for your sins?
 
SteveVH said:
What I am picking up here is a sense that you feel you are enlightened and anyone disagreeing with you is only doing so because they are not enlightened and have not been endowed with your secret knowledge. This amounts to gnosticism. As a Catholic you are required to believe everything Holy Mother Church teaches, and it does not embrace Buddhism as part of its belief system. You say Christ is sufficient but you act as though he is not. You need something more. What more so you need?
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I am by no means enlightened. I am struggling too. There is a secret knowledge but it’s only secret because people don’t want to look or are not at that point yet which is fine. We are on different places on the sme path. Your talking dogmatic theology. At this point in time I am having a real problem with that. Pray for me. Jesus taught different people different things. The church has Constantine with them. They would not lose. What you are seeing is someone who looks at different points and perspectives.

Glod bless
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Bill;

You say that it’s dangerous to say “read this and nothing else.” I never said that, however. What I did say was that salvation is only found in scripture, not any where else. It is our sole source of spiritual fulfillment, guidance and nourishment.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. [2 Ti 3:16-17]

You say, however, “I myself need more.” My friend, that is a dangerous thing to say. You essentially say “God’s word is not enough.” You essentially say, “Christ is not enough.” You cannot say with the Psalmist: “I delight in your law” (Ps 119:70); and “If your law had not been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction” (Ps 119:92). You cannot say with Christ in the Sermon on the Mount: “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied” (Mt 5:6), that righteousness being the righteousness of Christ.

My friend, you need to truly consider your salvation. A person who has been regenerated would never seek out and try to find spiritual satisfaction in other religions and concepts. Carefully consider these things, and ask yourself, on the day of judgment, when you stand before God, will you truly be justified for your sins?
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I will consider my salvation and thanks for the reproofs I can use them. What is the righteousness of christ? Is it not the righteousness of the buddha? I think so. I am not enlightened and I am struggling too. I have found a lot of peace and comfort in catholicism.
 
billcu1 said:
I will consider my salvation and thanks for the reproofs I can use them. What is the righteousness of christ? Is it not the righteousness of the buddha? I think so. I am not enlightened and I am struggling too. I have found a lot of peace and comfort in catholicism.
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There is no other righteousness except that of Christ. Not Buddha, not Allah, not any one. You say you are a Roman Catholic - here is a quote from the “first pope” regarding Christ and our salvation:

“And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” [Acts 4:12]

If you are struggling, I can tell you that if you lean upon Christ and trust on him, and upon no one or nothing else, you will find peace and comfort. It is he who “is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them” (Heb 7:25). No one else will give such intercession before the Father.
 
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