Grace & Justification

[AlegreFe]

I don’t disagree with that article either. This goes back to my point here about Grace alone being our salvation, but only if we show our Faith through our works. I also believe that if we never showed our Faith, that God still has mercy and grace to give us so that we can be saved. We would have to beg for forgiveness in the end and show our love that way.

It seems as if they are talking about “works” of which we think we can do all on our own. I would never say that my good works are the result of my own mustering up of them, NEVER. :nope: In turn, I only believe that the showing of my works is to prove that I have Faith in Jesus Christ. I also know that if it wasn’t for God’s Grace, I would not have that faith to begin with.

From the same link above;
“It is a special conversion that does not consist in abandoning
the bad, but abandoning the good, in a way,” he said. “It means
detaching oneself from everything one has done, repeating to
oneself, 'We are useless servants; we have done only what was
required.’”

 

[pumpqeen]

Did not the Pharisees had faith when they went for baptism by John the baptist at the river?

Did not Balaam have faith when he cursed the Jews?

All these people have faith. But did their faith save them? NO.

We need to qualify everything that we say. Faith in ACCORDANCE to God’s will is righteousness. Faith alone will not save if you do not even know who God is. There will be miracle workers knocking at heaven’s door. You mean these people have NO faith? I think they have more faith than many of us here.

BUT they are not saved.

“I am the truth, the way and the life”. The ONLY way to be saved is to put on christ and live for God.

 

[AlegreFe]

Did not the Pharisees had faith when they went for baptism by John the baptist at the river?

Did not Balaam have faith when he cursed the Jews?

All these people have faith. But did their faith save them? NO.

We need to qualify everything that we say. Faith in ACCORDANCE to God’s will is righteousness. Faith alone will not save if you do not even know who God is. There will be miracle workers knocking at heaven’s door. You mean these people have NO faith? I think they have more faith than many of us here.

BUT they are not saved.

“I am the truth, the way and the life”. The ONLY way to be saved is to put on christ and live for God.

I agree.

I’m not sure if you are disputing anything I’m saying or not. If you are disputing, then you should go back and re-read my posts in here.

 

[simbagizmo]

I don’t disagree with that article either. This goes back to my point here about Grace alone being our salvation, but only if we show our Faith through our works. I also believe that if we never showed our Faith, that God still has mercy and grace to give us so that we can be saved. We would have to beg for forgiveness in the end and show our love that way.

It seems as if they are talking about “works” of which we think we can do all on our own. I would never say that my good works are the result of my own mustering up of them, NEVER. :nope: In turn, I only believe that the showing of my works is to prove that I have Faith in Jesus Christ. I also know that if it wasn’t for God’s Grace, I would not have that faith to begin with.

From the same link above;
“It is a special conversion that does not consist in abandoning
the bad, but abandoning the good, in a way,” he said. “It means
detaching oneself from everything one has done, repeating to
oneself, 'We are useless servants; we have done only what was
required.’”

I think this is where we just do not agree, and will have to leave it here. Otherwise we are just repeating ourselves. Just one parting comment though. Once you choose Faith, you receive the Grace. The Grace you received through faith is sufficient for salvation. You do not need to keep “filling up” with it. You believe that one gets more grace when one does their good works. I do not see this in Scripture. Actually, Scripture teaches that Grace abounds when we sin, not when we do Good works.

Rom 5:19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

But even these verses do not actually state we receive more grace. It simply states that the grace we have is sufficient to cover all sin. And it is through faith that the Grace is received. The Gospel message is about Faith and belief in Jesus Christ. That we are all sinners and nothing we can do will get us to heaven, but dieing to ourselves and being reborn in Christ, through Faith. It is true that we are saved by the Grace and Mercy of God, but it is also true that it is by Faith we receive this free Gift.

After we receive that gift, we have them put Jesus in control of our llives. We allow Him to work through us. All good works done are not done by us, but by Jesus who is in us. So when you say

I only believe that the showing of my works is to prove that I have Faith in Jesus Christ

I would ask you, whom are you trying to “prove” that you have faith? If you are trying to prove this to God, you do not have to do works for that. He knows your heart and this is unnecessary and dangerous. Because this would put you under the Law and not Grace. If you are trying to prove it to man, this again is dangerous because if you are doing this for recognition of man, that will be your reward for the works.

God will continue to offer the Grace to all he calls, but it is through Faith, and acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior, that one receives the salvation and justification.

Thanks again for the conversation, I has been enlightening.

 

[AlegreFe]

I think this is where we just do not agree, and will have to leave it here. Otherwise we are just repeating ourselves. Just one parting comment though. Once you choose Faith, you receive the Grace. The Grace you received through faith is sufficient for salvation. You do not need to keep “filling up” with it. You believe that one gets more grace when one does their good works. I do not see this in Scripture. Actually, Scripture teaches that Grace abounds when we sin, not when we do Good works.

It sounds like you believe in OSAS… do you? Because I don’t believe in OSAS. And therefore I believe that we need to keep working at our Faith so that we can obtain more graces to help us along. I do believe that we can lose our salvation and that is through sin, mainly mortal sin. So we show our Faith by repenting for those sins and because of that we receive more Grace. Perhaps that is also what you meant by your comment “Grace abounds when we sin, not when we do Good works.” I also believe in that because we need to repent. And how are we going to repent for our sins if God does not give us the Grace that we need to do that? You see what I’m saying? I also believe that when we are “down” or weak, God fills us up. I must decrease so that He can increase. But in order to do that, I must put my TRUST fully in Jesus Christ so that those Graces can flow. And that is where my Faith comes in to “save” me. But like I said, it is an ongoing process. We are pilgrims on a journey here on earth trying to reach our final destination, our HOME. What would that journey be if we were only to “believe” and that once we do, that is it, and I don’t have to do anything else? Not much of a journey. We are to strive every day. We are to “work out our salvation in fear and trembling.”

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

You have 20+ years on me but I know what you mean. I haven’t heard of the word growing up in school or at home either.

School and home for me and my siblings was more on how we are to be loving towards other people and “the golden rule” was always stressed in our house. Even though at the time I did not know it as “the golden rule.” We just knew it for the meaning of it, which is really what matters here. Just because we haven’t heard the name of a certain term or just because we haven’t heard a certain word does not mean that we don’t know how to act towards one another. I think I was brought up in a good way to love others. And as far as “justification” we were brought up to obey the Ten Commandments because that meant obeying God and if we obeyed God we would be with Him in the end. That is how I was raised.

It doesn’t matter how much a person knows certain “big” words. God said that Himself. We can have all the degrees in the world but if we don’t love God and our neighbor, those degrees won’t matter a thing, neither in Heaven nor in Hell.

Agreed, that it is more important to live by a quality, than to be able to define it - but, OTOH…I keep finding posts which down-play the importance of the Bible, or the value of knowing it well, or the value of being able to recognise & place a verse: & this is apt to give a very poor impression: I’m just grateful I was spared a Catholic childhood. And I’m more grateful than I can say, that I was brought up a Protestant. I might have been totally ignorant of the Bible otherwise - the Church seems *almost *to resent it, to wish it would go away; but Protestants never cease to praise & honour & love it. I wish we had a culture of doing so; the Fathers certainly did. All the Papal letters in creation are not worth one letter of St. Paul.​

Doctrine matters: it matters whether we are justified by the merits of Christ, because justification affects our eternal condition before God. If we don’t know these words & their meanings, how can we say what our state in relation to God is ? They are the map to it. People worry about the “road-map” to peace between Israel & the Palestinians: surely the way to peace & reconciliation with God is incalculably more important. If we care whether milk is rancid or fresh, even though these it is for these bodies of ours which will become corruption, should we not take even more care of a thing as important as our state in eternity ?

 

[AlegreFe]

Agreed, that it is more important to live by a quality, than to be able to define it - but, OTOH…I keep finding posts which down-play the importance of the Bible, or the value of knowing it well, or the value of being able to recognise & place a verse: & this is apt to give a very poor impression: I’m just grateful I was spared a Catholic childhood. And I’m more grateful than I can say, that I was brought up a Protestant. I might have been totally ignorant of the Bible otherwise - **the Church seems *almost ***to resent it, to wish it would go away; but Protestants never cease to praise & honour & love it. I wish we had a culture of doing so; the Fathers certainly did. All the Papal letters in creation are not worth one letter of St. Paul.​

But the bible does matter to the Church. What makes you think that it doesn’t?

I hope you didn’t think that I thought the bible does not matter just because I was brought up to Love others and to obey God. I’m not saying that the bible is unimportant because loving others is more important.

I do agree that the Bible should have been read in my schools. But I am reading the bible now. So Loving God and my neighbor in addition to reading the bible is good.

God is great. He brings these bible-loving Christians into His Church. That way the converts can show us a thing or two. I love Scott Hahn, Steve Wood, Stephen Ray, Tim Staples, Michael Cumbie, Alex Jones, (who is now a Catholic Deacon) Marcus Grodi (Coming Home Network) and all those cradle Protestants who wanted to know the TRUTH and got the FULLNESS of Truth in the Catholic Church. I also love that there are cradle Catholics who got a “wake up” call to their faith and started to want to learn more about their faith and started to read the bible. I fall into that category. And of course there are those cradle Catholics who just seemed to always know their faith.

The diversity in the Church is great. Each convert brings in a little of their own denomination into the Church. I especially like Alex Jones. I love his conversion story. I have it on DVD and he made us laugh and cry too. I liked when he would say, “I’m gonna get ‘Pentecostal’ on you now.”

Oh btw, your “religion” sounds somewhat like what Michael Cumbie would call himself. Now it wasn’t like your name. But he would combine different denominations and then throw in the “Catholic” name to kind of define what he thought he was. His conversion story is very enlightening and powerful and funny too, very funny. He’s a very likable guy.

 

[simbagizmo]

It sounds like you believe in OSAS… do you?

I do believe that one of Faith is assured salvation. That is the Gospel message (John3:16). I know this sidesteps the question, so let me say that I believe one can fall out of Faith. I will be hammered by the OSAS crowd now.

Because I don’t believe in OSAS. And therefore I believe that we need to keep working at our Faith so that we can obtain more graces to help us along.

As you said in your previous post, you “do work to prove your faith”. I will ask again, Who are are trying to prove your faith to? Also, I never heard the plural of grace ever used before. Scripture teaches grace as singular, and that the Grace you receive through Faith is sufficient.

I do believe that we can lose our salvation and that is through sin, mainly mortal sin.

Scripture teaches that the one sin the leads to death is the rejection of Jesus Christ.

So we show our Faith by repenting for those sins and because of that we receive more Grace. Perhaps that is also what you meant by your comment “Grace abounds when we sin, not when we do Good works.”

One does not receive more Grace, one receives the Grace through Faith. And that Grace is sufficient to drown out all sin. Bible does not teach getting more Grace or running low on Grace.

I also believe in that because we need to repent. And how are we going to repent for our sins if God does not give us the Grace that we need to do that? You see what I’m saying?

It is not Grace that causes us to repent, but Faith. Through Faith we receive the Grace.

I also believe that when we are “down” or weak, God fills us up.

God come in us and us in him when we put our Faith in Jesus. I assume you are still talking Grace here, but Scripture does not treat Grace like a gas tank that needs refilling.

I must decrease so that He can increase. But in order to do that, I must put my TRUST fully in Jesus Christ so that those Graces can flow. And that is where my Faith comes in to “save” me.

To decrease and Jesus increase, you must put your FAITH fully and solely in Jesus Christ. Through your Faith, your receive His Grace and salvation. I do not know if you intend this, but it sounds like Faith is almost a word you do not want to say. You say Grace and Works, but Faith seems to have an after thought like, “oh yea, faith also”. If this is the case, please rethink this. I believe some Catholics and Protestants take extreme positions just to create a divide. Protestants, not wanting to be anything close to Catholics, do not mention works at all. They could just say they believe and continue unrepentant life thinking that was Faith. Some Catholics, trying to separate themselves from the Protestants, makes Faith a trival consequence or action, and making works everything. Both of these are not correct.

But like I said, it is an ongoing process. We are pilgrims on a journey here on earth trying to reach our final destination, our HOME.

I agree one grows in Faith by seeking His wisdom and His will. To continue to depend on Him for everything in our lives and how we can do nothing without Him. The journey HOME, as you put it, is when we come to Jesus and Jesus comes in us. Though we are not in heaven, we are in HIM. We die to ourselves and are reborn though the baptism of the Holy Spirit that we are given when we come to Faith. Once this happens, we are guarenteed eternal salvation as long as we are within the Faith. This is God’s Word.

What would that journey be if we were only to “believe” and that once we do, that is it, and I don’t have to do anything else? Not much of a journey. We are to strive every day. We are to “work out our salvation in fear and trembling.”

This is where I think you trivialize what is meant by “believe” or “faith”. Just believe that Jesus is the Son of God, as stated in Scripture is not what this means. It means believing in your innermost being that Jesus is your one and only Savior and Lord. He is God. I owe everything to HIM, my job, my life, my salvation. That I pursue His will and forsake my own. It no longer matters what I want, it is what He wants. This is not “only” to believe. This is Faith. And once you do this, God says your salvation is assured. I know this bursts having to earn your way to heaven, but Jesus said

Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
Mat 11:30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

 

[AlegreFe]

I do believe that one of Faith is assured salvation. That is the Gospel message (John3:16). I know this sidesteps the question, so let me say that I believe one can fall out of Faith.

I had a feeling you were going to mention that scripture verse, John 3:16. Well Catholics do not believe in OSAS.

simbagizmo:

As you said in your previous post, you “do work to prove your faith” Who are are trying to prove your faith to? I never heard the plural of grace ever used before. Scripture teaches grace as singular, and that the Grace you receive through Faith is sufficient.

I am showing my Faith through my works. Catholics do not believe in FAITH ALONE. We believe in Faith and Works. We also believe in Grace Alone, but we should show our Faith so that God can pass on the grace that we need. Jesus dying on the cross is the reason I may go to Heaven. But just “saying” that I have Faith and nothing else is not what Jesus said when He was asked “What must I do to gain eternal life?”

simbagizmo:

Scripture teaches that the one sin the leads to death is the rejection of Jesus Christ.

I agree. If I break one of God’s Commandments that means that I reject Jesus Christ.

simbagizmo:

One does not receive more Grace, one receives the Grace through Faith. And that Grace is sufficient to drown out all sin. Bible does not teach getting more Grace or running low on Grace.

This goes back to the fact that Catholics do not believe in OSAS.

simbagizmo:

It is not Grace that causes us to repent, but Faith. Through Faith we receive the Grace.

Grace causes us to do EVERYTHING that is good in the eyes of God. Without God’s Grace we can do nothing. But I have to show my Faith so that I can get more Grace. “All depends on Faith, Everything is Grace.” God supplies the Grace, we move with that Grace to show our Faith. God “animates” us with His Grace. But I know that my Faith is very important in order for me to get that Grace.

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Cont

simbagizmo:

God come in us and us in him when we put our Faith in Jesus. … but Scripture does not treat Grace like a gas tank that needs refilling.

This is part of a huge problem of Protestantism. You go by Bible ALONE. And “Bible Alone” is NOT scriptural.

The Catechism says that there are two types of Graces; Actual and habitual or better word, Sanctifying Grace.
Actual Grace is what is given on an ongoing basis. This is what “animates” us so that we can show our Faith.

Here is something from the CCC in brief about Grace. You can scroll up and read more.

simbagizmo:

To decrease and Jesus increase, you must put your FAITH fully and solely in Jesus Christ. … I do not know if you intend this, but it sounds like Faith is almost a word you do not want to say. You say Grace and Works, but Faith seems to have an after thought like, “oh yea, faith also”. If this is the case, please rethink this…

Of course I believe that we have to have Faith and I have to SHOW that Faith too. I never said just Grace & works. I said Faith AND Works. I don’t have to “rethink” anything. I know what I believe.

When God breathes His Grace on us, we have to breathe that Grace in. That is what we call works that shows our Faith. If I don’t “breathe” that Grace in, then I die. No Grace, No Life.

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Cont

simbagizmo:

I agree one grows in Faith by seeking His wisdom and His will. To continue to depend on Him for everything in our lives and how we can do nothing without Him. The journey HOME, as you put it, is when we come to Jesus and Jesus comes in us. Though we are not in heaven, we are in HIM. We die to ourselves and are reborn though the baptism of the Holy Spirit that we are given when we come to Faith. Once this happens, we are guarenteed eternal salvation as long as we are within the Faith. This is God’s Word.

I don’t disagree with you here. But then OSAS creeps in and we don’t believe in that.

BTW, when Catholics are in Mass, we are in Heaven.

simbagizmo:

This is where I think you trivialize what is meant by “believe” or “faith”. Just believe that Jesus is the Son of God, as stated in Scripture is not what this means. It means believing in your innermost being that Jesus is your one and only Savior and Lord. He is God. I owe everything to HIM, my job, my life, my salvation. That I pursue His will and forsake my own. It no longer matters what I want, it is what He wants. This is not “only” to believe. This is Faith. And once you do this, God says your salvation is assured. I know this bursts having to earn your way to heaven, but Jesus said

I am NOT trivializing anything here. The only thing is that I don’t believe in OSAS and I do not believe in Faith alone. I DO believe in Grace Alone. We did NOTHING to deserve Grace. But God gives it to us freely. But I have to “breathe” in that Grace so that I can let God do His Will.

I believe it’s all about our relationship with God. Grace is freely given to us because He loves us. I love God so I participate in that Grace so that God can do His Will. I don’t want to sin because I love God. But I know that would be impossible if it weren’t for God’s Grace.

 

[simbagizmo]

I had a feeling you were going to mention that scripture verse, John 3:16. Well Catholics do not believe in OSAS.

Whether you want to believe this or not is really irrelevant to the truth. It is irrelevant whether I believe fire is hot or not. The truth is it is hot and I will get burned.

Same here.

John 3
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

believeth again does not mean just to believe Jesus is God’s son as shown by the definition of the word below.

G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo’-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

If you do not believe this message. How do you walk unbelievers through the Gospel message when you are fullfilling the commission you were given?

I am showing my Faith through my works.

Who are you showing or proving your faith to?

Catholics do not believe in FAITH ALONE. We believe in Faith and Works. We also believe in Grace Alone,

If it is Faith and works, it cannot be Grace “Alone”. Grace is the favor given as the consequence to Faith. By Grace, Through Faith. If there is no Faith you receive no Grace.

but we should show our Faith so that God can pass on the grace that we need.

One has the Grace of the Holy Spirit within you when you come to Faith. How does one loose Grace. Can you give Scripture to support this. Maybe that will help me understand.

Jesus dying on the cross is the reason I may go to Heaven.

Jesus dying on the cross is NOT the reason you may go to heaven. That would mean that everyone goes to heaven, because he died for everyone. But this is not the case. Only a select few will get to heaven. The select few that entrust their salvation in Jesus will get to heaven.

But just “saying” that I have Faith and nothing else is not what Jesus said when He was asked “What must I do to gain eternal life?”

What was the answer Jesus gave.

John 6
26 Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
**29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” **

I agree. If I break one of God’s Commandments that means that I reject Jesus Christ.

Committing sin is not rejecting Jesus Christ. It is disobedience, but not rejection. A child may do not put his toys away like the parents say. The child is disobeying his parents, but he does not reject his parent because of that act.

Grace causes us to do EVERYTHING that is good in the eyes of God. Without God’s Grace we can do nothing.
Grace is unmerritted favor. It does not cause us to do anything. It is Faith that causes us to become reborn in Spirit and drives us to do the will of Jesus.

But I have to show my Faith so that I can get more Grace. “All depends on Faith, Everything is Grace.” God supplies the Grace, we move with that Grace to show our Faith. God “animates” us with His Grace. But I know that my Faith is very important in order for me to get that Grace.

Who do you show your Faith to?

 

[simbagizmo]

…Cont
I don’t disagree with you here. But then OSAS creeps in and we don’t believe in that.

I am just talking about Faith here. I did not bring up the Once Saved Always Saved. I am just bringing up Faith Alone for salvation.

I am NOT trivializing anything here. The only thing is that I don’t believe in OSAS and I do not believe in Faith alone. I DO believe in Grace Alone. We did NOTHING to deserve Grace. But God gives it to us freely. But I have to “breathe” in that Grace so that I can let God do His Will.

I have never brought up OSAS in this whole conversation. I am talking about Faith Alone. How do you “breathe” in Grace? Please explain.

I believe it’s all about our relationship with God.

That is what Faith Alone is about. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Grace is freely given to us because He loves us.

And we have put our Faith in Him. In order to receive it.

I love God so I participate in that Grace so that God can do His Will.

God can do His will through your Faith

I don’t want to sin because I love God.

And it is Faith in Him that caused that love for him

But I know that would be impossible if it weren’t for God’s Grace.

This I agree with.

 

[AlegreFe]

AlegreFe:

Catholics do not believe in OSAS

Whether you want to believe this or not is really irrelevant to the truth. It is irrelevant whether I believe fire is hot or not. The truth is it is hot and I will get burned.

I agree. Just believing in something doesn’t necessarily make it true. That is why OSAS is not true. And you believing it does not make it true. We can all lose our salvation so how can it be true that once saved always saved? It can’t.

simbagizmo:

Who are you showing or proving your faith to?

To God. Who else. God knows everything but it is up to me, by accepting God’s Grace, to let God know that I know about His Love and Mercy that He shows me by granting me Graces. I have nothing to prove to you that I have faith by telling you that I pray such a prayer and I do such a thing so many times a week or whatever else I might do in my Faith. That would be bragging and the only thing I am showing then is foolish Pride, which is one of the seven deadly sins and thee one that started it all. I only prove or show my faith to God. Now if I do say something about what I do, it would probably only be to demonstrate something that coincides with Scripture to try to get you to see Scripture through the eyes of the Church.

In the book of Genesis when Adam & Eve showed shame because they were naked, God asked them, “who told you that you were naked?” God did not have to ask them because He already knows what happened. He was trying to get them to admit this. So in turn God wanted them to show or in this case specifically “tell” Him something that He already knows.

If that ^ isn’t enough, here is something else in scripture that clearly states what I’ve just said about proving/showing my faith to God;

2 When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you,
as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets
to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have
received their reward.
3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand
know what your right is doing,
4 so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your
Father who sees in secret will repay you.
5 "When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who
love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street
corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to
you, they have received their reward.
6 But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the
door, and pray to your Father in secret. And
your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
Mat 6:2-6

BTW, giving alms is one of the things I have to do to show God I am perfect. In my case, it is showing Him that I want to be perfect, because I’m not. But I want to be.

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Cont

Here is a verse that says that I receive grace on top of grace which means that I could receive more grace. If one could receive more grace after the OT, then why wouldn’t it be true after the NT?

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory
as of the only Son from the Father.
15 (John bore witness to him, and cried, “This was he
of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before
me, for he was before me.’”)
16 And from his fulness have we all received, grace
upon grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and
truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is
in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
John 1:14-18

Jesus and Mary are the only ones in Scripture to be described as “full of grace.” As Catholics we see “full” meaning that nothing else can “fit” inside their souls, only Grace and therefore no sin. We are NOT “full of grace” and therefore can keep getting “filled” with more grace until it overflows and there is no more room for anything else but Grace. But because sin takes refuge in our soul, there is less room for grace. So when that sin departs by my going to confession, more grace can now be poured into my soul. God will continue to do this until my soul is also “full of grace.” That seems almost impossible to do it all here on earth. Therefore God will continue His loving purification in Purgatory. That is if we died in His graces or what we call “state of grace.”

After I go to confession, that concupiscence is still left inside of me, meaning it is still possible for me to sin again. So that tendancy to sin has to be taken away completely. Those are the “works” that I built on sand instead of gold & silver. Those “works built on sand” have to be taken away from me. That is also the self-love that I have. That also has to be taken away and my soul has to be filled with Love only for God and others. If self-love takes any part away from the Love I should have for God then it needs to be taken away from me. If it doesn’t happen here on earth then it will happen in Purgatory. That is God’s burning Love for us.

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Cont

simbagizmo:

If it is Faith and works, it cannot be Grace “Alone”.

Yes it could, because GRACE is everything. Without Grace there is no way that I can have Faith. The way that I show God that I know of His Loving Grace, is by showing my Faith to Him, and therefore receiving the Grace that I need to be Sanctifyed.

simbagizmo:

Grace is the favor given as the consequence to Faith. By Grace, Through Faith. If there is no Faith you receive no Grace.

If there is no Faith I receive no further Sanctifying Grace. But God is merciful and He wants souls so he continues to grant actual Graces. It is up to us to “breathe in” those Graces. God’s Grace is His Mercy & Love. It is what keeps us alive.

I received Sanctifying Grace at baptism, which wiped original sin from my soul and made me a child of God. I did not receive actual graces at that time because as an infant I cannot “show” my faith. When I do receive actual Graces, I must accept the Grace and then “act” on that by showing my faith. If I do not accept God’s Grace there is no way that I can show my Faith. One of the things that Catholics do to show their Faith to God is to go to Confession. When we do, we receive more Sanctifying Grace, which wipes MY sins from my soul.

I guess you could possibly have this misunderstanding because of the types of Graces there are. Perhaps if you understood that there are two types of Graces then maybe you would understand this better.

or habitual grace - Catholic EncyclopediaSanctifying Grace
Among the three fundamental ideas – sin, redemption, and
grace – grace plays the part of the means, indispensable and
Divinely ordained, to effect the redemption from sin through
Christ and to lead men to their eternal destiny in heaven.

Actual grace derives its name, actual, from the Latin actualis
(ad actum), for it is granted by God for the performance of
salutary acts and is present and disappears with the action
itself. Its opposite, therefore, is not possible grace, which is
without usefulness or importance, but habitual grace, which
causes a state of holiness, so that the mutual relations between
these two kinds of grace are the relation between action and
state, not those between actuality and potentiality. Later, we
shall discuss habitual grace more fully under the name of
sanctifying or justifying grace. As to actual grace, we have to
examine: (1) its Nature; (2) its Properties.

Romans chapter 6 says a lot about the Graces that abound when we sin. The reason for that is that God wants us to be aware of our sin so that we can go to Confession and confess our sins.

Here is just one of the verses in that chapter that states that we could be saved if we do not sin;

6 We know that our old self was crucified with him, so
that our sinful body might be done away with, that we
might no longer be in slavery to sin.

11 Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as
(being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal
bodies so that you obey their desires.
13 And do not present the parts of your bodies to
sin as weapons for wickedness, but present
yourselves to God as raised from the dead to life
and the parts of your bodies to God as weapons
for righteousness.
14 For sin is not to have any power over you, since
you are not under the law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not
under the law but under grace? Of course not!
Rom 6:6, 11-15

Why should sin be specified here if we did not sin? Since we are sinners and we sin all the time (maybe not mortal all the time), then why should Paul mention it here? And why should it matter to us if we are supposedly already “saved?” I don’t think Paul would need to mention it if we were “saved” by “accepting Jesus as Lord & Savior.”

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Cont

simbagizmo:

One has the Grace of the Holy Spirit within you when you come to Faith. How does one loose (it’s lose) Grace.

When we commit mortal sin, the Holy Spirit departs. The grace of Salvation at that moment is gone. But since God is merciful He does continue to grant actual graces so that I can be motivated or “animated” to go to confession and repent of my mortal sin. With that, God will grant me the Grace of eternal Salvation. That is if I died right after I went to Confession and received Jesus Christ in Holy Communion, I died in a State of Grace so I will go to Heaven. But I will most likely make a “pit stop” in Purgatory. But that’s for another thread which already exists. I received Sanctifying Grace in Confession.

simbagizmo:

AlegreFe:

Jesus dying on the cross is the reason I may

go to Heaven.Jesus dying on the cross is NOT the reason you may go to heaven. That would mean that everyone goes to heaven, because he died for everyone.

You didn’t notice I said “may?” That word is all over the Bible and non-Catholic Christians don’t seem to take that word at its value. To me and hopefully to everyone else, that word “may” means “maybe” or “might.” My salvation could happen but it is up to me to show my Faith so that it will happen.

may
Definition:

1. indicates possibility: indicates that something
   is possibly true
   That may be the best way to do it.
2. indicates that something could happen: indicates
   that something could have happened, or could happen in
   the future
   The crash may well have been caused by faulty brakes.
   The comet may be remembered best for its nonscientific impact.

simbagizmo:

But this is not the case. Only a select few will get to heaven. The select few that entrust their salvation in Jesus will get to heaven.

I agree that not everyone is going to heaven. There is no such thing as OSAS. And the “concept” of “once saved always saved” has a lot to do with what we are talking about here. Even those that have “accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior” might not make it. There are some Catholics that might not make it either. But I want to look at it as “some might make it.”

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Cont

simbagizmo:

What was the answer Jesus gave.

John 6
26 Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled

.
…

Well those are not the scripture verses that I was talking about. But nonetheless this is a good one. But you have to keep going in that chapter in the book of St. John. This is one of my favorites because it is what separates Catholic Christians from non-Catholic Christians; not that I like to be separated, I wish you were here so that you can experience the beauty & the richness of having the Fullness of the Truth. What I do like is the fact that we have Jesus Christ substantially present right here in all the Catholic Churches of the world. And that is the Holy Eucharist. Protestants seem to take most everything in a literal way when it comes to reading Scripture, except for these verses in John chapter 6. This is something else we have to do in order that God will raise us on the last day; and that is to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

51 I am the living bread that came down from
heaven; whoever eats this bread will live
forever; and the bread that I will give is
my flesh for the life of the world."
John 6:51

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has
eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true
drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood
remains in me and I in him. John 6:54-56

I was actually talking about these verses from St. Matthew. So along with eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood, we must also do what Jesus tells us in the following verses. You see, if we do not follow the Commandments, we cannot receive Jesus in Holy Communion. Then that will mean taking Him unworthily. It would have to be a mortal sin however to make it unworthy to receive Jesus.

16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher,
what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good?
There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into
life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, "
’You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall
not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall
love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have
observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go,
sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have
treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Mat 19:16-21

Here are verses where Jesus states that we must “be perfect” just as our Father in Heaven is perfect. This is one of His commandments of Love. Not everyone is perfect like this. Not all Catholics are perfect and not even Protestants who “accepted Jesus” as their Lord & Savior. So how can you say that you are guarenteed eternal salvation if Jesus is telling us to “be perfect?”

43 "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your
neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those
who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;
for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and
sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?
Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you
doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly
Father is perfect. Mat 5:43-48

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

…Cont

simbagizmo:

Committing sin is not rejecting Jesus Christ. It is disobedience, but not rejection. A child may do not put his toys away like the parents say. The child is disobeying his parents, but he does not reject his parent because of that act.

If I commit a mortal sin I AM rejecting Jesus. I am turning away from God and turning to the “world.” If I loved Jesus and accepted Him then I would want to obey His commandments in order I gain eternal life. I obey and accept Him because I love Him. But when I do commit a mortal sin and I am aware of it and only because of the actual Grace of God. That Grace “animates” me to go to Confession so that I can be reconciled to God again and receive Jesus in Holy Communion and therefore in a State of Grace again. IF I keep going to Mass and receive Jesus in Holy Communion and follow His commandments I can continue to stay in a State of Grace. By doing all of that I am showing my Faith and therefore stay in a State of Grace. But I can lose that but I’ll just be going in circles if I just repeat myself; so read above. lol

takes the soul The fact that mortal sin****out of the state of grace
is due to the very nature of mortal sin. Mortal sin is an absolute
turning away from God, the supernatural end of the soul, and
is an absolute turning to creatures; therefore, habitual mortal
sin cannot exist with habitual grace any more than fire and
water can co-exist in the same subject. But as venial sin does
not constitute such an open rupture with God, and does not destroy
the friendship of God, therefore venial sin does not expel
sanctifying grace from the soul.

simbagizmo:

Grace causes us to do EVERYTHING

that is good in the eyes of God. Without God’s Grace we can do nothing.
Grace is unmerritted favor. It does not cause us to do anything. It is Faith that causes us to become reborn in Spirit and drives us to do the will of Jesus.

That’s strange. If you say that Grace does not cause us to do anything then how is it that I am having Faith in the first place? How is it that I obey God’s commandments? How is it that I live and breathe and grow? Do you think that I muster everything up? Do you really think that I could even have the least bit of Faith all on my own? There is no way that anyone can have Faith without God touching us first with His Grace. God is the one that motivates us or “animates” us to do good.

 

[AlegreFe]

I am just talking about Faith here. I did not bring up the Once Saved Always Saved. I am just bringing up Faith Alone for salvation.

But OSAS has to do with this because you are talking about Faith and you think it is by “Faith Alone” that you are saved. Also if you don’t think we can receive more grace then you must believe in OSAS. Do you?

simbagizmo:

How do you “breathe” in Grace? Please explain.

By actually accepting it. I accept it by showing my Faith and doing the good works that I have to in order to show that Faith.

simbagizmo:

That is what Faith Alone is about. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

“Faith Alone” is NOT scriptural.

24 See how a person is justified by works and
not by faith alone. Jas 2:24

Now that we’ve established that, it is because of God’s Grace that I am able to have a relationship with God. He shows me He loves Me by humbling Himself and becoming Man, then by dying on the Cross for me. With that He gives me Grace. I, in turn, have to show my Love for Christ by accepting His Graces and showing my Faith.

simbagizmo:

And we have put our Faith in Him. In order to receive it.

Yes, I am not disagreeing here. But we also receive Grace if Faith is in jeopardy. He pulls us back with His Grace so that our Faith can abound.

simbagizmo:

AlegreFe:

I love God so I participate in that Grace so that God can do His Will.

God can do His will through your Faith

God can do His will through my Faith because of His Grace. Without that Grace I would not have had the Faith at all.

simbagizmo:

And it is Faith in Him that caused that love for him

The Love for God was caused by the Grace that God gave me. I then show that Love by showing my Faith.

But I know that would be impossible if it weren’t for God’s Grace.

This I agree with.

Aah, but if you agree then why did you say that it was “Faith in Him that caused that love for him?”