Grace saves not our works! no works no heaven?

[Tom]

www.scborromeo.org:

1966 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it:
If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there . . . the perfect way of the Christian life. . . . This sermon contains . . . all the precepts needed to shape one’s life.

Well, this should give you a general idea of the teachings, there are many many more on “works” but it would be better for you to just go and read it, if you’ve got problems with anything in it let’s talk, but please be specific, paragrahs help a lot. Not “what Catholics beleive”.

 

[Tom]

www.scborromeo.org:

2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities. Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead. Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:
He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none and he who has food must do likewise. But give for alms those things which are within; and behold, everything is clean for you. If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?

BTW the Church teaches specifically one CAN NOT “earn his way into heaven” by doing good works.

 

[Tom]

www.scborromeo.org:

1829 The fruits of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.

 

[littleone]

BTW the Church teaches specifically one CAN NOT “earn his way into heaven” by doing good works.

You are right and all people should know that it is by GRACE alone which is the building mix to enable us to love one another to see the needs of one another and this in itself allows the love of God through faith in us to help us relate to each others needs, as the Apostils did.

 

[Tom]

I know, I promised to stop, but…
www.scborromeo.org:

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

The teachings really are beautiful, if some people knew the teachings of the Church they probably wouldn’t hate the Church the way they do.

 

[Tom]

Tom, why then do you do good works?

This is one reason:
www.scborromeo.org:

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

 

[littleone]

I know, I promised to stop, but…
The teachings really are beautiful, if some people knew the teachings of the Church they probably wouldn’t hate the Church the way they do.

Originally Posted by www.scborromeo.org
2186 ***Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life. ***

I think this is a little narrow since Jesus told the teachers that sunday was made for man not the other way around. He also spoke of the person who if they had a sheep held up in a bramble bush would go and retreve it from the bush.I think we should think more spung like, flexable.

 

[Tom]

You are right and all people should know that it is by GRACE alone which is the building mix to enable us to love one another to see the needs of one another and this in itself allows the love of God through faith in us to help us relate to each others needs, as the Apostils did.

Alright I must pose a question to your “grace alone” theory. God offers everyone sufficient grace to come to know Him, correct? I mean He doesn’t “offer” you more than He offers me. What if I reject His grace? We do it every day. We fall into our little sins, even though God offers us the grace we need to live according to His will. So if I refuse to accept His grace, am I still saved? Of course not, I have to accept His grace don’t I? After all, God offers everyone grace, but not everyone takes the action (work) when offered that grace.
Now I totally agree, we can do nothing without His grace. But we also "can " do nothing with His grace. A little play on words.

 

[Tom]

Originally Posted by www.scborromeo.org
2186 ***Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life. ***

I think this is a little narrow since Jesus told the teachers that sunday was made for man not the other way around. He also spoke of the person who if they had a sheep held up in a bramble bush would go and retreve it from the bush.I think we should think more spung like, flexable.

A little out of context, the Church isn’t saying only Sunday, it is simply it’s saying espicially Sunday.

 

[LSK]

We get to heaven by calling on the name of jesus, not by doing good works. Good works come from a desire to do gods will. Its is the fruit from our faith. Catholics do good works because they believe they NEED to, to be saved. They believe that the power lies in them to achive salvation, Protestants do good works because they WANT to please God whom we all love. Not because they believe it will get them into heaven.

This is not true. You do not understand the Catholic Faith and have broken the 8th Commandment.

I would refer you to the Catholic Catechism:

**1966 **The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it:

If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there . . . the perfect way of the Christian life. . . . This sermon contains . . . all the precepts needed to shape one’s life.
Catholics do good works because we have been commanded BY GOD to do good works.

Catholics are saved, are being saved and hope to be saved, working out their salvation in fear and trembling just as St. Paul did - just as it says in Holy Scripture and as taught in Sacred Tradition.

 

[littleone]

Alright I must pose a question to your “grace alone” theory. God offers everyone sufficient grace to come to know Him, correct? I mean He doesn’t “offer” you more than He offers me. What if I reject His grace? We do it every day. We fall into our little sins, even though God offers us the grace we need to live according to His will. So if I refuse to accept His grace, am I still saved? Of course not, I have to accept His grace don’t I? After all, God offers everyone grace, but not everyone takes the action (work) when offered that grace.
Now I totally agree, we can do nothing without His grace. But we also "can " do nothing with His grace. A little play on words.

And that is where the other atributes of God come in, that we havent mentioned. I am speaking of God’s mercy, and we can take that word a long way. How about the other point Jesus mentioned. Be joyous more so that our name is writen in the book of life.
I see your point though Tom. I have to go home now and will be back to enjoy the debate ( wholesome one at that) tonight.
God bless you .

 

[mikeledes]

All of this was thorougly discussed in the thread entitled “Help Me! Does Romans 4 teach Sola Fide.” It includes a debate with several Protestants and debunks many of their misconceptions of Catholic teaching and exposes the errors in their soteriology. The discussion ended just a couple of says ago.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Tom]

www.scborromeo.org:

1697 Catechesis has to reveal in all clarity the joy and the demands of the way of Christ.22 Catechesis for the “newness of life”(Rom 6:4) in him should be:

• a catechesis of the Holy Spirit, the interior Master of life according to Christ, a gentle guest and friend who inspires, guides, corrects, and strengthens this life;
• a catechesis of grace, for it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life;
• a catechesis of the beatitudes, for the way of Christ is summed up in the beatitudes, the only path that leads to the eternal beatitude for which the human heart longs;
• a catechesis of sin and forgiveness, for unless man acknowledges that he is a sinner he cannot know the truth about himself, which is a condition for acting justly; and without the offer of forgiveness he would not be able to bear this truth;
• a catechesis of the human virtues which causes one to grasp the beauty and attraction of right dispositions towards goodness;
• a catechesis of the Christian virtues of faith, hope, and charity, generously inspired by the example of the saints;
• a catechesis of the twofold commandment of charity set forth in the Decalogue;
• an ecclesial catechesis, for it is through the manifold exchanges of “spiritual goods” in the “communion of saints” that Christian life can grow, develop, and be communicated.
  1698 The first and last point of reference of this catechesis will always be Jesus Christ himself, who is “the way, and the truth, and the life.”( Jn 14:6)) It is by looking to him in faith that Christ’s faithful can hope that he himself fulfills his promises in them, and that, by loving him with the same love with which he has loved them, they may perform works in keeping with their dignity:

I ask you to consider that our Lord Jesus Christ is your true head, and that you are one of his members. He belongs to you as the head belongs to its members; all that is his is yours: his spirit, his heart, his body and soul, and all his faculties. You must make use of all these as of your own, to serve, praise, love, and glorify God. You belong to him, as members belong to their head. And so he longs for you to use all that is in you, as if it were his own, for the service and glory of the Father (St. John Eudes, Tract)
For to me, to live is Christ (Phil 1:21).

 

[Tom]

And that is where the other atributes of God come in, that we havent mentioned. I am speaking of God’s mercy, and we can take that word a long way. How about the other point Jesus mentioned. Be joyous more so that our name is writen in the book of life.
I see your point though Tom. I have to go home now and will be back to enjoy the debate ( wholesome one at that) tonight.
God bless you .

Good night, and may the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ be with you.

 

[Tom]

All of this was thorougly discussed in the thread entitled “Help Me! Does Romans 4 teach Sola Fide.” It includes a debate with several Protestants and debunks many of their misconceptions of Catholic teaching and exposes the errors in their soteriology. The discussion ended just a couple of says ago.

God Bless,
Michael

Thanks Mike, I’ll go look at it.

 

[mikeledes]

We get to heaven by calling on the name of jesus, not by doing good works. Good works come from a desire to do gods will. Its is the fruit from our faith. Catholics do good works because they believe they NEED to, to be saved. They believe that the power lies in them to achive salvation, Protestants do good works because they WANT to please God whom we all love. Not because they believe it will get them into heaven.

Please explain James 2:24 and Romans 2:6-7 to me. As Catholics, we believe that truly righteous acts pleasing to God can only flow out of a regenerated heart (i.e. justified). In justification, we become a new creation, capable of keeping the commandments and doing good works. However, if we do not live live up to the call to righteousness that comes with being justified, we will not experience glorification. We become like the branch cut off, withered, and thrown into the fire for being unfruitful (John 15:1-6).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[setter]

We get to heaven by calling on the name of jesus, not by doing good works. Good works come from a desire to do gods will. Its is the fruit from our faith. Catholics do good works because they believe they NEED to, to be saved. They believe that the power lies in them to achive salvation, Protestants do good works because they WANT to please God whom we all love. Not because they believe it will get them into heaven.

My dear brother in Christ, most folks disagree with Catholic’s on the basis of what they believe that the Church teaches, nopt what it actually teaches. Salvation ultimately comes down to having a saving relationship with the One who was sent down from heaven to save us.

It is a misnomer to claim that Catholics believe that they need to do good works to be saved. This is at best a childish understanding of one’s faith and eludes the faith relationship aspect necessary for salvation. Jesus cuts through the chase and makes it plain that faith is the necessary requisite for living the life of faith pleasing to God:

“Then they said to him, ‘What must we do, to be doing the works of God?’ Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.’” **John 6: 28-29 **

Again, what husband will not naturally “perform” the works of charity for his wife (and their children) as a evidence of the integrity of his covenantal vow? If he failed to do so, one would be left questioning if he actually meant those vows or has since recanted from his original commitment to love his beloved for better or for worse, …until death …

 

[dan85]

What happens to a person if he or she was a believer in christ but commited more sins then they did good works at the end of their life? Would they go to heaven or hell?

 

[Tom]

What happens to a person if he or she was a believer in christ but commited more sins then they did good works at the end of their life? Would they go to heaven or hell?

You don’t get remission of sin from doing good works. It’s not a contest. Your sins are forgiven by the grace of the Sacraments, you don’t earn this. The grace of the Sacraments are directly from God, delivered thru His body, the Catholic Church. Now your next question will be if you’re not “Catholic” my response is in the Catechism, in the broadest terms EVERY Christian is a member of the Catholic Church, you might not be a practicing Catholic, but since the Catholic Church is the body of Christ, you are a member. This is affirmed in the first century of Christianity, read the writings of Apostolic Fathers of the Church. You may not like it, and you may deny it, and you may not be practicing, but you are, if you’re a Christian, a member of the Catholic Church.

 

[dan85]

Your sins are forgiven by the grace of the Sacraments

I dont understand this. What do you mean by grace of the sacraments?