Grace without Sacraments?

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BCven86

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What about those people who say that they are being moved by the Holy Spirit and appear to be, or those who say they have spoken in tongues in the name of Christ (ex), and have never received any of the Sacraments? i.e. many Protestants, especially those who have not received a *valid *Baptism (some Baptisms can transfer over). I realize that God can and does offer some graces outside of the Sacraments, and, in most cases, in order to get you *to *these Sacraments; but what of these people who seem to receive as much Grace without ever entering into them?

Additionally, what of this happening apparently at such a large scale (to all Protestants who say they have had a true conversion) ?
 
BCven86 said:
What about those people who say that they are being moved by the Holy Spirit and appear to be, or those who say they have spoken in tongues in the name of Christ (ex), and have never received any of the Sacraments? i.e. many Protestants, especially those who have not received a *valid *Baptism (some Baptisms can transfer over). I realize that God can and does offer some graces outside of the Sacraments, and, in most cases, in order to get you *to *these Sacraments; but what of these people who seem to receive as much Grace without ever entering into them?

Additionally, what of this happening apparently at such a large scale (to all Protestants who say they have had a true conversion) ?
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Anyone who has not been validly Baptized is subject to the full influence of satan and has little protection against him. They may be moved by a spirit but which one?
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
Anyone who has not been validly Baptized is subject to the full influence of satan and has little protection against him. They may be moved by a spirit but which one?
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Apparently the same one that we are moved by. This spirit leads them to volunteer, give alms, do mission work, etc.
 
BCven86 said:
What about those people who say that they are being moved by the Holy Spirit and appear to be, or those who say they have spoken in tongues in the name of Christ (ex), and have never received any of the Sacraments? i.e. many Protestants, especially those who have not received a *valid *Baptism (some Baptisms can transfer over). I realize that God can and does offer some graces outside of the Sacraments, and, in most cases, in order to get you *to *these Sacraments; but what of these people who seem to receive as much Grace without ever entering into them?

Additionally, what of this happening apparently at such a large scale (to all Protestants who say they have had a true conversion) ?
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God does as He wills, despite the insinuation of the RCC that only they can validly baptize. I suppose obviously regenerate protestant Christians might be seen by RC’s to have the so called “baptism of desire” as a possible explanation. “By their fruits you shall know them”
 
BCven86 said:
Apparently the same one that we are moved by. This spirit leads them to volunteer, give alms, do mission work, etc.
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So do Hindu’s, Buddhists, Muslims, and atheists. They are not moved by the Holy Spirit.
 
TriuneUnity said:
So do Hindu’s, Buddhists, Muslims, and atheists. They are not moved by the Holy Spirit.
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I was thinking more of protestants that do not believe in baptism. Since Baptism and Confirmation are the normal ways that we receive the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit, why does it seem that the Holy Spirit is acting in such a broad scale outside of this Sacrament?
 
BCven86 said:
I was thinking more of protestants that do not believe in baptism. Since Baptism and Confirmation are the normal ways that we receive the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit, why does it seem that the Holy Spirit is acting in such a broad scale outside of this Sacrament?
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If a person refuses to be Baptised…now, not someone who cannot be Baptised, or had no opportunity to before death…for the average person living in western society…I cannot say that anything they do is moved by the Holy Spirit. Those who refuse Christ’s command to repent and be baptized… we should question their salvation, not for the sake of judgment, but for the sake of their souls, so that they may submit to the waters of regeneration.
 
TriuneUnity said:
If a person refuses to be Baptised…now, not someone who cannot be Baptised, or had no opportunity to before death…for the average person living in western society…I cannot say that anything they do is moved by the Holy Spirit. Those who refuse Christ’s command to repent and be baptized… we should question their salvation, not for the sake of judgment, but for the sake of their souls, so that they may submit to the waters of regeneration.
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I understand and agree with you. I have a good friend that is non-denominational and unbaptized, yet he does things like lead Bible studies and is very active in spreading the word. He does not believe and baptism and does desire to be baptized, and thus would not have received the Sacrament by desire. If not by the Holy Spirit, why does he do such things as I mentioned previously? What is he moved by then? This is one example but I feel as though there are many protestants out there that have similar situations. This is why I am wondering what makes this possible theologically.
 
God will make the best of all situations. I think that we are capable of receiving grace from God without the sacraments just like we are still capable of receiving some grace from God in a state of mortal sin. God does not abandon us and perhaps will work through these people and eventually they will be influenced and see why they should be validly baptized. In the mean time, it is great that they are motivated to help people and I would think this still comes from God. Likewise, while not the fullness of the truth, God is not going to deprive Protestants of his love. He may eventually lead some of them back to the Catholic Church but he will still be with them always.
 
wjp984 said:
God will make the best of all situations. I think that we are capable of receiving grace from God without the sacraments just like we are still capable of receiving some grace from God in a state of mortal sin. God does not abandon us and perhaps will work through these people and eventually they will be influenced and see why they should be validly baptized. In the mean time, it is great that they are motivated to help people and I would think this still comes from God. Likewise, while not the fullness of the truth, God is not going to deprive Protestants of his love. He may eventually lead some of them back to the Catholic Church but he will still be with them always.
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I do not believe that God communicates His saving grace through any means other than the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments; God always comes to us through tangible, material ways. Protestants who do not believe they need to be baptised, if they truly believe when they hear the Word, will still need to submit to baptism because Christ has clearly commanded it; if they refuse, their faith will die.
 
TriuneUnity said:
I do not believe that God communicates His saving grace through any means other than the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments;
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The Sacraments are the ordinary means of Grace, but the Holy Spirit can do whatever he wants to move a soul towards Himself.
 
BCven86 said:
I understand and agree with you. I have a good friend that is non-denominational and unbaptized, yet he does things like lead Bible studies and is very active in spreading the word. He does not believe and baptism and does desire to be baptized, and thus would not have received the Sacrament by desire. If not by the Holy Spirit, why does he do such things as I mentioned previously? What is he moved by then? This is one example but I feel as though there are many protestants out there that have similar situations. This is why I am wondering what makes this possible theologically.
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Because not every unbeliever is an axe murderer; That is to say, unbelievers do nice things all the time. Civic righteousness, as it is sometimes called. They build cancer hospitals, give to charity, etc. They are still dead in their tresspasses and sins, though because they lack faith in Christ; in the case of those who profess their faith in Christ and do not follow the command of Baptism, they may believe for a while, but I would say they would fall away. From a theological perspective, while their works may be appear good from a human perspective, from God’s perspective it is merely rotten fruit, because the tree is already bad.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
The Sacraments are the ordinary means of Grace, but the Holy Spirit can do whatever he wants to move a soul towards Himself.
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I do not believe in immediate operations of the Spirit; He always works through means. The Gospel and the Sacraments.
 
TriuneUnity said:
I do not believe in immediate operations of the Spirit; He always works through means. The Gospel and the Sacraments.
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That is your problem. Stop putting constraints on God, He need not go by your standards.
 
BCven86 said:
Apparently the same one that we are moved by. This spirit leads them to volunteer, give alms, do mission work, etc.
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Human beings can simply act with human compassion, it can be just a humanitarian response not necessarily a spiritual one.
 
BCven86 said:
I was thinking more of protestants that do not believe in baptism. Since Baptism and Confirmation are the normal ways that we receive the graces and gifts of the Holy Spirit, why does it seem that the Holy Spirit is acting in such a broad scale outside of this Sacrament?
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God sends His Actual Grace to all, Baptized or not to draw them to Him.
 
BCven86 said:
I understand and agree with you. I have a good friend that is non-denominational and unbaptized, yet he does things like lead Bible studies and is very active in spreading the word. He does not believe and baptism and does desire to be baptized, and thus would not have received the Sacrament by desire. If not by the Holy Spirit, why does he do such things as I mentioned previously? What is he moved by then? This is one example but I feel as though there are many protestants out there that have similar situations. This is why I am wondering what makes this possible theologically.
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That sort of says it. He leads Bible studies, most likely leading others into error by doing so. He does not believe in Baptism and therefore teaches others that there is no need for Sacramental Baptism, thereby risking their salvation. Who moves him? Who moves people through confusion to error?
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
That sort of says it. He leads Bible studies, most likely leading others into error by doing so. He does not believe in Baptism and therefore teaches others that there is no need for Sacramental Baptism, thereby risking their salvation. Who moves him? Who moves people through confusion to error?
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Amen Br. Rich…you absolutely nailed that. I couldn’t have said it any better.
 
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