Grace without Sacraments?

[Stylteralmaldo]

I don’t. His standard is plain for all to read in Romans 10.

I read Romans 10. No where does it say God has limited Himself to the Sacraments.

Please do not misunderstand: the Sacraments are necessary for Salvation. But the Church has always taught the Baptism of desire.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Romans 10 does not support your position at all.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ. The Word of Christ is the gospel, both preached and administered in Baptism. Christ commands the Apostles to go out and teach (the gospel) and Baptise. This is the way people are converted to faith. In no other way.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I read Romans 10. No where does it say God has limited Himself to the Sacraments.

Please do not misunderstand: the Sacraments are necessary for Salvation. But the Church has always taught the Baptism of desire.

He hasn’t limited Himself only to the Sacraments. The Word brings salvation, and the Sacraments are the visible Word. Both are ordinarily needed for salvation. I understand the Baptism of desire, where people may be prevented from the actual act. We are discussing those who reject any form of Baptism.

Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

What about those people who say that they are being moved by the Holy Spirit and appear to be, or those who say they have spoken in tongues in the name of Christ (ex), and have never received any of the Sacraments?

The problem is that they appear to be moved by the Holy Spirit.

BCven86:

what of these people who seem to receive as much Grace without ever entering into them?

The key word is that they seem to receive as much Grace without the Sacraments.

BCven86:

Additionally, what of this happening apparently at such a large scale (to all Protestants who say they have had a true conversion) ?

Those who sincerely want to know Chirst will seek His Church and receive the Sacraments. Those, through no fault of their own, have a sincere desire to serve Christ, but do not know Him through His Church can be saved by Baptism of desire. It doesn’t mean they will be saved, but we need to trust in the Mercy of God that salvaion will be available to them.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved.

But the Word doesn’t say those who believe and are not baptised are condemned. It does say those who do not not believe will be condemned.

TriuneUnity:

We are discussing those who reject any form of Baptism.

What we don’t know is if they understand what they are rejecting. I understand that we can’t presume they are filled with the Holy Spirit, but we can’t know whether they are rejecting out of invincible ignorance.

 

[TriuneUnity]

But the Word doesn’t say those who believe and are not baptised are condemned. It does say those who do not not believe will be condemned.

It says whoever doesn’t believe will be condemned, yes; in the case of a non-believer, their baptism isn’t affording them anything because they do not have faith.

What we don’t know is if they understand what they are rejecting. I understand that we can’t presume they are filled with the Holy Spirit, but we can’t know whether they are rejecting out of invincible ignorance.

We always have to individualize it, yes; but in the context of the OP, it is a person who is aware that “baptism now saves you” and rejects ANY form of baptism. So this isn’t someone of “invincible ignorance.”

 

[BCven86]

The Sacraments are the ordinary means of Grace, but the Holy Spirit can do whatever he wants to move a soul towards Himself.

I understand this, but if so many people are receiving grace without baptism, why is it ordinary and necessary? i.e. why go get baptized if you can receive grace without it as these people seem to.

God sends His Actual Grace to all, Baptized or not to draw them to Him.

What grace do we receive at baptism then? Only sanctifying grace? I thought it was also a broader opening to actual grace (although, yes, it does take actual grace to be motivated to go be baptized).

Those who sincerely want to know Chirst will seek His Church and receive the Sacraments. Those, through no fault of their own, have a sincere desire to serve Christ, but do not know Him through His Church can be saved by Baptism of desire. It doesn’t mean they will be saved, but we need to trust in the Mercy of God that salvaion will be available to them.

Well said.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

I understand this, but if so many people are receiving grace without baptism, why is it ordinary and necessary? i.e. why go get baptized if you can receive grace without it as these people seem to.

who said it was “so many”?

Gospel: Luke 13:22-end

 

[BCven86]

who said it was “so many”?

Gospel: Luke 13:22-end

Sorry I misspoke, so many SEEM to have received many gifts of the Holy Spirit as represented by their actions, i.e. they seem well motivated to spread the Gospel. Although they miss the mark by not teaching the Church, they are well intentioned and do what they believe as the correct to spread what they believe as the entirety of the Gospel.

It is arguable that they are indistinguishable from protestants*** with*** a valid baptism.

 

[GailMac]

Jesus said wherever two or three are gathered together in His Name, there He would be. It puzzles me to no end how so many folks can talk about Jesus so much and do so en masse, singing and praying and trying to worship etc…and NOT get the real message. They must actually *fight against *the grace that God pours on souls who honestly seek Him!

I have no doubts either that some places are potentially diabolic in nature when it comes to certain happenings - something being convincing enough to draw folks away from the true Church would be under the heading of diabolic. That IS precisely the devil’s nature - to destroy faith, etc. I guess this is why the Church cautions us not going to other places of worship without a very good reason for being there.

Through the years since becoming a Catholic, I’ve only had a few invites to other places from well-meaning friends. They usually stop asking after a few trys. I really have no interest in that stuff. What goes on at Church is enough for me. I would caution against what I call “spiritual thrill-seeking.” This usually means a person has experienced a dry-spell in their prayer life and want to break out of the hum-drums. I wouldn’t go elsewhere just to see the latest “experience” of the Holy Spirit moving folks. Visit the Vatican Website and see how the Spirit truely moves the Church these days! There’s plenty of things in their news!

Peace,

Gail

 

[Tom]

God does as He wills, despite the insinuation of the RCC that only they can validly baptize. I suppose obviously regenerate protestant Christians might be seen by RC’s to have the so called “baptism of desire” as a possible explanation. “By their fruits you shall know them”

First we need to define

1. A lie
2. Ignorance
   A lie is saying something you know not to be true.
   Ignorance is not knowing what you’re talking about.
   With these definitions I will be charitable and say you are ignorant.
   From the Catechism:

http://www.scborromeo.org/:

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

Next time, just for a giggle, find out what you’re talking about before you write.