Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

[sandusky]

Catholic Dude:

The Bible never teaches you can be “100% sure where you will spend eternity”. That question is not asked in Scripture because the concept is unBiblical and undermines the theological virtue of Hope.

Sure it does—that’s the good news; cite any verse in scripture that says one can’t be sure of his salvation.
Catholic Dude:

You cant have Hope and at the same time be 100% sure/guaranteed.

What keeps one having both, is understanding hope in the contemporary sense: “I hope so.”

The biblical meaning of hope is that of an expected certainty, the object of which is God, and His promises; again, it’s good news.
Catholic Dude:

We can have a moral assurance of our salvation (eg relizing that you are not living in grave sin), but we cant have a 100% certain/guarantee we will stay that way (we can still sin in the future).

Now that’s a problem; you could be deceiving yourself concerning the lack of grave sin in your life; however, in biblical salvation, the redeemed will sin, but that sin does not keep them out of the kingdom; they have complete forgiveness of sin, and guilt in Christ, by the mercy and grace of God.

 

[montanaman]

but that sin does not keep them out of the kingdom

Things like that convince me we’re definitely reading two different Bibles.

 

[bengal_fan]

Sure it does—that’s the good news; cite any verse in scripture that says one can’t be sure of his salvation.

what about in Philippians where Paul talks about working out his salvation with fear and trembling? he actually says he continues to work out his salvation. fear and trembling suggests humility (which is a good thing) and a belief that nothing is ever for sure until it’s for sure.

What keeps one having both, is understanding hope in the contemporary sense: “I hope so.”

The biblical meaning of hope is that of an expected certainty, the object of which is God, and His promises; again, it’s good news.

i totally agree with the bolded. hope does mean that which is certainly to come.

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi Catholic Dude

Thank you for your feedback

I agree when you said

The Bible never teaches you can be “100% sure where you will spend eternity”…undermines the theological virtue of Hope…You cant have Hope and at the same time be 100% sure/guaranteed …We can have a moral assurance of our salvation …, but we cant have a 100% certain/guarantee we will stay that way.

out.

The last thing you said is

we can still sin in the future

I fully agree. However, at that moment when one should fall to the temptations of satan and sin, isn’t our faith in Jesus and God’s promise to us,

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6

“him” being Jesus
Isn’t God asking us to to believe and accept His promise to us that His gave us His Son Jesus to take the punishment on the cross and pay the ransom for all our sin?

Even though the bible never says be 100% sure, isn’t God’s word more powerful than our human minds can comprehend?

I do not believe Jesus would go through all that pain and suffering and eventual death for a “believer” in Him with the chance the “believer” would not make it to heaven, do you?

lets ask another way…

If there was a chance a true believer would not make it to heaven,
Why then did the Bible say…

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:9 truth

The bible could have said…

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou might be saved. lie

Then I think of the song…

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me

Isn’t His grace amazing? Sometimes I feel I do not deserve it, but in my heart I know God loves me and is offering me His grace whenever I stumble in my walk of life to be more and more in the likeness of my Saviour Jesus.
All He requires of me is to trust Him and allow His devine power to change me into the person He wants me to be.

Thank you

the truth

 

[grandfather]

i would disagree with luther on that.

Then you agree that he is wrong.<<<<<<

 

[mozart-250]

Yes, I see your point. It’s a minor point, anyway, between infused and imputed justification. Mozart-250, you bring interesting and thoughtful dialogue to these threads. Do not abandon them. We want to hear your side.

The whole “sola scripura is from satan” thread sort of left a sour feeling in my mouth and has caused me to reevaluate what in the world I am doing here. I think I have concluded I don’t have a problem with sharing my faiths and beliefs, but my I do have issues with debating…particularly if it becomes on the acrimonious side and I feel I have to be defensive. How this plays out I am not sure…but I will drop out of threads when the discourse level reaches a certain intensity.

 

[Metaron]

The whole “sola scripura is from satan” thread sort of left a sour feeling in my mouth and has caused me to reevaluate what in the world I am doing here. I think I have concluded I don’t have a problem with sharing my faiths and beliefs, but my I do have issues with debating…particularly if it becomes on the acrimonious side and I feel I have to be defensive. How this plays out I am not sure…but I will drop out of threads when the discourse level reaches a certain intensity.

I understand… but remember… some people (including me) forget tact at times, and end up throwing it out of the window… sometimes, indeed, people even put incindiary remarks out, that may offend, but just 'cause one person said it, does not mean that we all agree with it completely, or even believe in it at all. When certain threads, at sundry times, begin to degenerate into accusatory remarks and name-calling, I understand completely… many things have left a sour taste in my mouth, too… but, I realize that these are just wild views of individual posters, and sometimes they go way to over-the-top.

 

[mozart-250]

The Bible never teaches you can be “100% sure where you will spend eternity”. That question is not asked in Scripture because the concept is unBiblical and undermines the theological virtue of Hope. You cant have Hope and at the same time be 100% sure/guaranteed

Actually I seem to recall reading something by Jimmy Akin in which he said something to the effect that a Catholic can have assurance of salvation, but just that the assurance you have is not infallible.

I would have to give this some thought, but at first blush I do not disagree with him.

Trust me, this issue is so huge that Im amazed it isnt talked about more often. This is NOT about “faith” vs “faith + works” it is much more than that, it touches upon the very moral integrity of God.

That’s odd, because in all of the churches I have attended in my life, I have never heard of the terminology or the differentiation. And as I have said, I have heard statements and read scriptures that seem to back both of them.

Actually yes, being made righteous means your sins have been forgiven and your soul made pure.

Your sins have been forgiven is quite obvious. I am having difficulty with the phrase “your soul made pure” just getting my hands on what it means… But at first glance I don’t disagree with this.

Obviously something happens when you are regenerated. Every church that I have attended believes regeneration is something more than just some legal transaction. It is a life-changing event.

It is not just a matter of teaching both, but a matter of “ORDER of events”. The original Protestants taught God could declare you righteous EVEN THOUGH your soul was unrighteous AFTER this then Protestants teach sanctification starts. Catholics (and the Bible) teach God only declares righteous those whom were ALREADY made righteous by His infused grace.

I am quite unfamiliar with “order” of events. Every church that I have attended teaches regeneration as an event where “a whole lot of life changing stuff” happens. If two things occur at regeneration, I am unfamiliar with any dependency that thing 2 has upon thing 1 since both happen at regeneration.

Imputed Righteousness is what the original Protestants taught and it means Christ acts like a clean bed sheet which is thrown over and covers you, a pile of dung, so that you “appear” clean/righteous.

I have never heard this. However, I will let the Lutherans speak to this.

 

[grandfather]

The whole “sola scripura is from satan” thread sort of left a sour feeling in my mouth and has caused me to reevaluate what in the world I am doing here. I think I have concluded I don’t have a problem with sharing my faiths and beliefs, but my I do have issues with debating…particularly if it becomes on the acrimonious side and I feel I have to be defensive. How this plays out I am not sure…but I will drop out of threads when the discourse level reaches a certain intensity.

Everyone take a deep breath. Maybe it would be good to try and understand why these discussions take place. What is the motive? Built into us, by God, is a desire to agree. We want the unity of mind that Paul calls for. Secondly, why do we try to convince others of the rightness of our beliefs? If I think I know something that is important and true and think another person needs to know this also, it is to benefit that person that I engage with him. This motive is mutual. The Catholics and Protestants going through this wrangling want the good of the other. What is that good ultimately? It is eternal life. When motivated by the good of the other the motivation is love. But another reason for dispute could be pride. I want to prove I am right and you are wrong and will take pleasure in seeing you put to foolishness. This is sinful, of course. So let’s examine our motives. It is difficult to be offended by someone you know loves you. Jesus commands His followers to love one another. Are we doing that? Are we obedient?

 

[sandusky]

montanaman:

Things like that convince me we’re definitely reading two different Bibles.

You’ve ignored, and left out the most important part of what I said:

they have complete forgiveness of sin, and guilt in Christ, by the mercy and grace of God.

**Colossians 2:13-14

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.**That’s the promise of the New Covenant with Israel, on whose coattails the church gains the kingdom (Jer 31:31-34).

How many transgressions does God forgive when He makes the alive (Col 2:13); and, how many of the believers iniquities, and how many of his sins does God remember (Jer 31:34)?

It’s not a different bible that we’re reading, but a different Spirit doing the teaching (1 Jn 4:1).

 

[bengal_fan]

Then you agree that he is wrong.<<<<<<

on that statement yes. do i think he was right in other things he says… yes. he is fallible just as you are just as i am.

The Church will prevail until the end of time.** She will not fall**. We have His promises to be with us until the end. This means that he was with us (leading us into truth) in all times, in the years 100, 1000 and 2000 the Church has true doctrine. What has the Church consistently believed? Is it what Luther taught, or is it what you personally beleive now, or is it what all the saints of all the ages held? <<<<<<<<<<

she won’t fall if Christ’s claims are true. so the church stands or falls on Christ. my statement was correct.

so the saints of all the ages are infallible? no, they have all said things that were true and weren’t true. we must all study, we must all seek, we must all humbly ask God to reveal Himself to us. i believe that is what i try to do and so i must follow what i feel has been and is being revealed.

 

[sandusky]

Bengal_fan:

what about in Philippians where Paul talks about working out his salvation with fear and trembling? he actually says he continues to work out his salvation. fear and trembling suggests humility (which is a good thing) and a belief that nothing is ever for sure until it’s for sure.

Paul also says this in Philippians:**Philippians 1:6

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.**So Paul’s confident hope is the work that God is doing in the believers in Philippi, as well as those believers all over creation.

In v13, Paul gives the reason why the believer should work out (not for) his salvation with fear and trembling:**Philippians 2:13

FOR **[the reason to work out salvation with fear and trembling follows:] **it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.**It is God working in you, and you are going to be sanctified, as that His will for you.

If ones attitude toward sanctification is lackadaisical, God working in you is going to “rap your spiritual knuckles;” therefore, the believer must take God’s gift of salvation seriously, or face discipline; thus the command to fear and tremble, as God’s discipline might be unpleasant
(cf Heb 12:4ff).

 

[grandfather]

I have never heard this. However, I will let the Lutherans speak to this.

Let Luther speak himself. He did not use the analogy clean bed sheet. He used the analogy of pure white snow covering a lump of dung. He said we are the lumps of dung covered by Christ’s blood and the Father sees that (righteousness) and not our sins. Please understand that whether you agree with Luther or not, on this or any of his doctrines, your roots are in them, in his act of beginning his own Church on the authority of scripture. After Luther many came who reformulated his doctrines and then others subsequently reformed those doctrines, seeing error in them, trying to get it right. It is a never ending process of correction and tweaking and division called denominationalism, or non-denominationalism, constant fracturing. You are part of it. It began with Luther. He (and his novel doctrines) is the father of it.

 

[bengal_fan]

Paul also says this in Philippians:Philippians 1:6

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.So Paul’s confident hope is the work that God is doing in the believers in Philippi, as well as those believers all over creation.

In v13, Paul gives the reason why the believer should work out (not for) his salvation with fear and trembling:Philippians 2:13

FOR [the reason to work out salvation with fear and trembling follows:] **it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.**It is God working in you, and you are going to be sanctified, as that His will for you.

If ones attitude toward sanctification is lackadaisical, God working in you is going to “rap your spiritual knuckles;” therefore, the believer must take God’s gift of salvation seriously, or face discipline; thus the command to fear and tremble, as God’s discipline might be unpleasant
(cf Heb 12:4ff).

all of the verses you quote say that God is at work in us or that our salvation is still being worked on. therefore, we are not finished, therefore salvation is not assured.

 

[sandusky]

bengal_fan:

all of the verses you quote say that God is at work in us or that our salvation is still being worked on. therefore, we are not finished, therefore salvation is not assured.

Then your hope is not an “assured confident hope,” but a “Catholic Dude hope so?” (Are you leaning toward swimming the Tiber?)

How does one enter the kingdom, according to you?

 

[bengal_fan]

Then your hope is not an “assured confident hope,” but a “Catholic Dude hope so?” (Are you leaning toward swimming the Tiber?)

of course it is a confident hope. i know there is a heaven, a kingdom of God, and i know that God wants us there and has given a way to get there. i just can’t be arrogant enough to say that i know, with full confidence, what God will do. i trust His promises, but i also will not box Him in to a formula of “pray this prayer” or “believe these things” and “you will get to heaven”. He is God, His ways are higher than mine. i could do everything right and He still has every right to send me to hell (He created me which gives Him the right to destroy me if He so desires).

i disagree with the catholic church on enough significant issues to go back yet. i say yet because i do believe that if there is ever to be unification of Christianity, it will be in the catholic church.

How does one enter the kingdom, according to you?

well, let’s go according to the bible instead… by grace.

by trusting in God, seeking Him with humility, and letting that trust and seeking live itself out in your life. the way was paved through Jesus and His sacrifice and resurrection.

 

[East_and_West]

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” - James 2:24
Hmmmm. The only time the term “faith alone” is used in the bible.

"By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. " - Romans 2:5-10
Interesting that this passages states that God will will repay everyone according to their works. To those who do good he give eternal life. To those who do evil he grants eternal damnation.

 

[bengal_fan]

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” - James 2:24
Hmmmm. The only time the term “faith alone” is used in the bible.

"By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. " - Romans 2:5-10
Interesting that this passages states that God will will repay everyone according to their works. To those who do good he give eternal life. To those who do evil he grants eternal damnation.

John 6:29:
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

 

[East_and_West]

You are right. That is a good work. But James 2:24 lists “works” in the plural. Sounds like there are others that God requires. What are they?

 

[bengal_fan]

You are right. That is a good work. But James 2:24 lists “works” in the plural. Sounds like there are others that God requires. What are they?

well, Jesus doesn’t say it is “a work”, He says it is the work.

i would say the other “works” is everything that goes along with belief. belief should produce trust. trust will involve sacrifice. that sacrifice will flow from the belief (which springs from His love for us producing love for Him in us). therefore, just as james says, faith without works is dead. it is not true faith. the works don’t “prove” our faith. the works flow from our faith.