Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

[grandfather]

the redeemed will sin, but that sin does not keep them out of the kingdom; .

Yikes!

So then we are lumps of dung covered by snow as Luther taught. Jesus gives a summary of the gospel, the gospel in a nutshell. “Go into all the world and preach the good news of REPENTANCE for the forgiveness of sin”. There is no forgiveness without repentance.

We will all stand in judgement. We will stand face to face before Christ and be judged. We naturally desire now to know what He will tell us. Do we presume to know what the verdict is while we have not finished the race?

At judgement He says to one group: “Come to me you blessed of my Father…”, to the other group He says, “depart from me you workers of iniquity…” He gives a reason for the different judgements. “When I was hungry, thirsty, sick, in prison you …” They are judged on their works, but the damned did things in His name.

What is the response of BOTH groups to their eternal judgement? It is surprise. Did they know beforehand what their judgement would be? Clearly they did not. Both want to know what the did to deserve their judgement.

There are two sins against the theological virtue of hope. They are despair and presumption. Presumption, I have it in the bag, no matter what sin I commit, no problem is a very grave error. In it we judge ourselves.

 

[East_and_West]

everything that goes along with belief. belief should produce trust. trust will involve sacrifice. that sacrifice will flow from the belief (which springs from His love for us producing love for Him in us). therefore, just as james says, faith without works is dead. it is not true faith. the works don’t “prove” our faith. the works flow from our faith.

So once we have decided to believe in Christ, we no longer have free will and the good works just flow?

 

[bengal_fan]

So once we have decided to believe in Christ, we no longer have free will and the good works just flow?

where do you get that from my statement? not a logical jump but i’ll answer:

yes, we always have free will to choose to let those works flow or not. i am not an osas adherent. i believe we can always choose to allow the Spirit that dwells in us to flow out of us or to deny that Spirit within us.

 

[East_and_West]

where do you get that from my statement? not a logical jump but i’ll answer:

yes, we always have free will to choose to let those works flow or not. i am not an osas adherent. i believe we can always choose to allow the Spirit that dwells in us to flow out of us or to deny that Spirit within us.

So you believe it is possible for a person to have faith and not have works at the same time?

 

[sandusky]

bengal_fan:

of course it is a confident hope. i know there is a heaven, a kingdom of God, and i know that God wants us there and has given a way to get there. i just can’t be arrogant enough to say that i know, with full confidence, what God will do.

So then, to you, a confident hope is arrogance?**1 Peter 1:3-19

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,

7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.**Is Peter’s confidence for himself, and the believer arrogance? Is the believer who believes every word that Peter says here arrogant for embracing Peter’s certainty? From Peter’s phrasing, do you think that his desire is for the believer to be doubtful concerning his salvation?

bengal_fan:

i trust His promises…i could do everything right and He still has every right to send me to hell

I think that, currently, you are having difficulty trusting in God and His promises.

What is the “everything” that you must do right?

bengal_fan:

i disagree with the catholic church on enough significant issues to go back yet. i say yet because i do believe that if there is ever to be unification of Christianity, it will be in the catholic church.

Paul assures the reader that there is one church, only, and one Spirit only, and that those in the one church and of the one Spirit are to “preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” The true church is not called to ”make unity,” but to preserve the unity given to it by the Spirit (Eph 4:1-4). Ecumenism is fatally flawed; if one truly knows biblical doctrine, then one will understand the reasons for division (1 Cor 11:18-19).

 

[peary]

Not a Protestant here, but yeah, I’ve seen what you say about them. A lot of them don’t understand Catholicism’s view of Salvation, and accuse us of works-based salvation (“getting to Heaven by our own work”) when this is a monstrous distortion of the Catholic view. Catholics believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith proven true by works. The works are the flip-side of faith. It is typical of the Protestant dichtonomy (either/or mindset) when it is clearly taught in the Bible in the writings of St.Paul and St.James. Passive faith, merely “professing” is not enough (This is Sola Fide); Active, dynamic, faith (faith in action) is enough. But this is a little off-topic.

**The Church teaches that we are saved by Grace ALONE, but we are JUSTIFIED by our works. **

 

[Metaron]

**The Church teaches that we are saved by Grace ALONE, but we are JUSTIFIED by our works. **

I know, but since both Protestants and Catholics both agree on the Grace Alone point, I didn’t mention it.

 

[bengal_fan]

So then, to you, a confident hope is arrogance?1 Peter 1:3-19

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,

7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.Is Peter’s confidence for himself, and the believer arrogance? Is the believer who believes every word that Peter says here arrogant for embracing Peter’s certainty? From Peter’s phrasing, do you think that his desire is for the believer to be doubtful concerning his salvation?

so where does peter say he is “certain”? answer: nowhere in this passage. he speaks of having a hope for ourselves to be a part of what God is surely doing. so the “confident hope” is in what God will do, not in what we will reap.

I think that, currently, you are having difficulty trusting in God and His promises.

let’s not try to judge other people’s hearts okay? unless you want God’s job (which you seem to want to box Him in anyway).

What is the “everything” that you must do right?

every heard of hyperbole?

Paul assures the reader that there is one church, only, and one Spirit only, and that those in the one church and of the one Spirit are to “preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” The true church is not called to ”make unity,” but to preserve the unity given to it by the Spirit (Eph 4:1-4). Ecumenism is fatally flawed; if one truly knows biblical doctrine, then one will understand the reasons for division (1 Cor 11:18-19).

so what, in your opinion, is the “one church”? so, if people break away from this one church, is that proof that that church has not “preserved” the unity and is therefore not the church? i’m not sure i’m following your logic. what are you trying to prove here?

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi all

After reading all your posts, I believe you will agree with me
there is a lot of concern of what is the truth when it comes to salvation

I also believe you will agree with me that there is one who knows all the answers to our concerns…God

At this time will you join me in prayer and ask God to assist us with that truth we all seek

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name,
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.
Forgive us our treapasses
as we have forgiven forgive those who
trespass against us
lead us not into temptation
but deliver us evil

Father, I want to thank you for your love and grace you have offered to all mankind. At times dear God we may feel like the prodical son, unworthy to be called you son/daughter.
Father, I thank you for your word that says you will never leave us or forsake us. I pray for strength and courage for everyone that we all may endure the race you planned before us.
Father, in your name I ask you to bless all your people with your wisdom and love. In our quest for the truth of your word, I pray that we all can work together with patience and understanding.

Lord, we honor your word by taking up the shield of faith which we can extinguish all the flaming arrows of untruths Satan throws our way and we we have on our head the helmet of salvation and hold the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God. We look forward to the day all the “children of God” will be united as one body in heaven honoring and worshiping you.
In Jesus name I pray
Amen

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi bengal fan

It is a confident hope. i know there is a heaven, a kingdom of God, and i know that God wants us there and has given a way to get there.

I believe that way is
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

do you agree bengal fan?

I just can’t be arrogant enough to say that i know, with full confidence, what God will do.

Bengal fan, God has already done. He saw all the sins of the world and that is why he sent us a saviour, a redeemer…Jesus Christ

I trust His promises, but i also will not box Him in to a formula of “pray this prayer” or “believe these things” and “you will get to heaven”.

I trust His promise too. bengal fan If you are like most people, you probably can say yes to this question…
Has there been anyone you been hurt by because of a promise they made to you and then they broke it?
many of time for me.

As I grow in my relationship with God and get to know Him more and more each day, I realize that God will never break His promise. It is us who break our promise to Him.

He is God, His ways are higher than mine. i could do everything right and He still has every right to send me to hell

I admire your respect for God. I agree, His wrath is definitely to be feared.

In the Paul Washer video link below, he talks about who will and who won’t go to heaven.
It is long, but worth it.

In his message he talks about being late for a meeting and when he gets there he told the people, that he was sorry
for being late. The reason for being late… he was hit by a big logging truck and threw him across the road.

Well it stands to reason that there was no way that could have happend because his body was still intact and there were no broken bones or bruises. So obvious he was crazy or a big liar.

The main theme of the message is that one can not have an encounter with almighty God and not have any visible sign or change in the way they live their life. This is how somone can tell if they are “saved” or not.

Paul Washer
youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

sandusky
“How does one enter the kingdom, according to you?”

well, let’s go according to the bible instead… by grace.

Amen, God wants us to be in heaven, he is offering a gift to all who open their hearts to receive it…

His amazing grace, which saved a wretch like me and the whole human race.

The message is in the song “Amazing Grace”

by trusting in God, seeking Him with humility, and letting that trust and seeking live itself out in your life. the way was paved through Jesus and His sacrifice and resurrection.

well said bengal fan and may I add His grace is offered through the blood of Jesus, There is a reason the bible says
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

There are some who think there is another way and there is not.
I am not one to call Jesus a liar

We all sinned, we all are sentenced to death.
On our way to deaths’ door, God sent a Saviour, His Son Jesus to take our place and pay the ransom for all our sins.

Why did God sacrifice His Son? Because of his love for all of us.

God gives us the free will choice to believe His message by faith and personal accept His gift of Jesus, our Lord and Saviour into our hearts.

The is one problem …not all will believe by faith and thereby they reject God’s gift…a costly mistake

The reality is God does not send people to hell, we do by rejecting His promise.

I am only writing on what God’s word says.
I anticipate some will not agree with what I just said.
Please let me know where I am wrong if you do disagree.

God bless,

truth

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi East and West

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” - James 2:24

Romans 2:5-10
Interesting that this passages states that God will will repay everyone according to their works.
To those who do good he give eternal life. To those who do evil he grants eternal damnation.

you bring up an excellent point,

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” - James 2:24

contradicts with

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

At first glance it looks like God is inconsistant in His message.
But throghh prayer and studying, God’s word became clear to me.

It is faith alone that saves us. I do not mean to get extreme but the people trapped in the WTC knew they were going to die.
I heard among the trapped people was a believer who shared the good news of the Gospel. Some of the people believed in the message and opened their hearts and placed there trust in Jesus and by faith, accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour .
Upon doing so, some even gave witness to the fact when they called their loved ones for the final time.

This is evident with the theives on the cross, one had faith and the other challenged Jesus. the one with faith entered heaven

Ok. You are saved today should you believe and accept God’s promise by faith.
I believe there is nothing anyone could have done which would factor in being saved at this point.

This is the reason I believe God says “through faith…not by works”

Now, once accepting God’s gift, one is not only saved from sins comitted or will commit, they also accept
being transformed into the image of Jesus Christ…giving up everything one has done which God hates, and doing which is pleasing to God according to His word

to the one that does not live their life according to His word, I believe God will say at the end,

… I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:23

When God sees from our faith in Him, we are honoring Him by turning away from our sins then

we are “justified by works and not by faith alone.”

I believe that why the bible says

, to live is Christ and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

our old selfs die and we start living a new in Jesus Christ our Saviour

Amen

God bless

truth

 

[ralphinal]

I keep wondering, asking about Matthew 25:31-46 and no one will explain it to me. It seems as if Jesus is sorting people based on works, not faith. I know that this is not Paul’s teaching, but doesn’t Christ trump Paul? Please explain if I am wrong.

 

[SyCarl]

I keep wondering, asking about Matthew 25:31-46 and no one will explain it to me. It seems as if Jesus is sorting people based on works, not faith. I know that this is not Paul’s teaching, but doesn’t Christ trump Paul? Please explain if I am wrong.

It is by grace through faith that we are saved. Works are the result and evidence of that faith. So that God will be seen to be just in his judgement, we will be judged according to the evidence. Through faith we are innocent. By works the faith is proved.

In any trial or judgement a person is either innocent or guilty. The evidence does not affect our status, but it does show that the judge is just in releasing us.

The goats obviously had the chance to do good works but didn’t. The judgement is just because it confirms they did not have a saving faith.

 

[ralphinal]

It is by grace through faith that we are saved. Works are the result and evidence of that faith. So that God will be seen to be just in his judgement, we will be judged according to the evidence. Through faith we are innocent. By works the faith is proved.

In any trial or judgement a person is either innocent or guilty. The evidence does not affect our status, but it does show that the judge is just in releasing us.

The goats obviously had the chance to do good works but didn’t. The judgement is just because it confirms they did not have a saving faith.

Thank you. So, you are saying that people who say all they need is faith are off base? WIthout the works to prove them, they are doomed?

 

[SyCarl]

Thank you. So, you are saying that people who say all they need is faith are off base? WIthout the works to prove them, they are doomed?

I am saying that if people have saving faith, and have a chance to do good works, they will inevitably do them. In that sense those who have the opportunity and do nothing may be doomed, although God of course decides what happens in any case. However, our works do not earn us anything. We are only doing what we have been commanded to do and already have an obligation to do.

 

[sandusky]

so where does peter say he is “certain”? answer: nowhere in this passage. he speaks of having a hope for ourselves to be a part of what God is surely doing. so the “confident hope” is in what God will do, not in what we will reap.

let’s not try to judge other people’s hearts okay? unless you want God’s job (which you seem to want to box Him in anyway).

every heard of hyperbole?

so what, in your opinion, is the “one church”? so, if people break away from this one church, is that proof that that church has not “preserved” the unity and is therefore not the church? i’m not sure i’m following your logic. what are you trying to prove here?

I encourage you to swim the Tiber now, bengal_fan; you’re ready. :tiphat:

 

[grandfather]

I am saying that if people have saving faith, and have a chance to do good works, they will inevitably do them. In that sense those who have the opportunity and do nothing may be doomed, although God of course decides what happens in any case. However, our works do not earn us anything. We are only doing what we have been commanded to do and already have an obligation to do.

Then what happens if you don’t do (works)?

I have heard Protestants use the term “saving faith” before. They use it to make some distinction between it and some other kind of faith. Is there an “unsaving faith”? Is the latter the faith that is dead that James speaks of?

Maybe we should restate the Catholic position on what is necessary for salvation. This is from a penny catechism. What must I DO to be saved? To be saved I must worship God in faith, hope and love.

So ask yourself, why would anyone object to this? Scripture says we are saved by faith. It also says we are saved by hope. Why make a fuss over the belief that we have to put our hope in God to be saved, and deny this, as Luther did with his doctrine faith alone? Why insist that souls can go to heaven without the love of God in them? Jesus says to the pharisees they search the scriptures thinking that in them they will find eternal life. Then He says, but I know the love of God is not in you, meaning they do not have eternal life. Figure it out. Searchijng scripture got them nowhere. He tells them they will die in their sins, go to hell. e calls them a brood of vipers whose father is the devil. On this board we have seen Protestants say sin will not cause the loss of salvation and truly mean it all the while thinking if they are in sin they still have a lock on heaven.

Faith and love are not the same things. Faith and hope are not the same things. So when those who insist we are saved by faith alone are faced with scripture that seems to prove this is not true, rather than say hope and love are needed, they come up with yet another contortion called “saving faith”. This must be some kind of faith that is more than just plain faith, unsaving faith, dead faith. What is faith that is dead? It is faith without works. What are works? They are the things we do, don’t do, think and say. Jesus says. without me you can DO nothing. Then with Him we must be able to DO something. He also tells us that He will be in us. If by grace we do works that merit salvation it is Him in us that does the works. It is His love in us. So we say whatever we do, we do by grace (gift). Protestants and Catholics agree we are saved by grace alone. What is grace? It is the gift of God that empowers us to DO something. It is the gift that allows me to love and be faithful to my wife, to be sober, tell the truth, etc.

An analogy of who does the works if they are done by God’s grace is scripture itself. It was written by men who put pen and ink to parchement. But it is divinely inspired. Did God write scripture? Yes! Did men write scripture? Yes! How can that not be a contradiction? It is not a contradiction. God inspired men to write, to do, to work. God did it and at the same time men did it. The works we do to be saved we can not do without God in us. With God we have the power and grace to believe in Him, hope in Him and love and obey Him to be saved.

 

[mozart-250]

I have heard Protestants use the term “saving faith” before. They use it to make some distinction between it and some other kind of faith. Is there an “unsaving faith”? Is the latter the faith that is dead that James speaks of?

Yes.

The latter is dead faith. Dead faith is not faith.

But if you want to say that it is faith fine. At the least arguing about the definitions of words is not worth bothering about to me (not that I am in the arguing mode anyway). But this is why I prefer “living faith alone” anyway. At worst we have a redundancy. At best we clarify meaning.

 

[grandfather]

Yes.

The latter is dead faith. Dead faith is not faith.

But if you want to say that it is faith fine. At the least arguing about the definitions of words is not worth bothering about to me (not that I am in the arguing mode anyway). But this is why I prefer “living faith alone” anyway. At worst we have a redundancy. At best we clarify meaning.

Luther did not say we “live” by faith alone. He said we are “saved” by faith alone. Neither one makes any sense though. We live in faith or by faith, but we also live in hope.

Please answer for yourself. Scripture says we are saved by hope. It says we are saved by faith. Faith may give or inspire us to hope, but it is not hope. They are different things. Why insist we can be saved without hope? This makes no sense at all. What is the problem with agreeing that we must put our hope in God? Why insist we are saved by faith alone, when it contradicts scripture? The same person who insists we are saved by faith alone, contradicting scripture, also insists scripture is the sole rule of faith.

Luther said that the Reformation would stand or fall on this doctrine (alone). This explains the obstinacy. The entire venture fails if this doctrine can not be defended. It is defended with desperation and no matter what evidence is produced, what reasoning can be shown, there can be no concession of error or the Reformation is down the tubes, according to its founder.

Be honest with yourself. Look at the evidence honestly. Scripture does not say we are saved by faith alone. It says we are saved by hope as well. It says we are judged by our works. It says we must repent of sin. It says we must obey God.

The Catholic Church agrees with scripture. It is the Reformers who contradict scripture in insisting on sola fide.

God does not hold each person repsonsible to figure out a correct understanding on every doctrinal issue, to go over his Bible and get it all right. It is impossible. But we do need a correct understanding. We need to know what is true. Truth is important. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead His Church into all truth. We can’t go off and set up our own churches on our own authority or some claimed authority of scripture as we have seen Protestant denominations do whenever they have a dispute. Logic alone says none or one of the denominations have true doctrine. If Jesus’ promise is true, one church must have true doctrine. Logic also says that truth can not change. If you decide what the Church believed yesterday and always about a matter is false, and today something else is true, then Jesus’ promise fails, because the Church yesterday believed false doctrine. Yesterday is part of “all time”. Whatever doctrine is true it must be consistent. So for example if the Church says there are seven sacraments and many centuries later someone comes along and says there are two, if that is correct, then Jesus’ promise fails. Then a couple of centuries after that someone comes along and says babies should not be baptized… Where does this chaos come from? It comes from the notion that every person can interpret scripture for himself.

 

[mozart-250]

Be honest with yourself. Look at the evidence honestly. Scripture does not say we are saved by faith alone. It says we are saved by hope as well. It says we are judged by our works. It says we must repent of sin. It says we must obey God.

Of course these statements lead to some further questions.

It says we are saved by hope as well.

What does it mean you are saved by hope as well? What if you have a day where you just don’t seem very hopeful? What if you have a day when you are not hopeful? What if you are depressed? Are you not saved on those days?

It says we are judged by our works.

So how many works do we have to have to be saved? What is the cutoff point? What if I have some works but not enought? Is there a risk of say God rejecting me because I don’t have as much works as say Mother Theresa?

It says we must repent of sin.

What if I forget a sin? What if I commit a sin and say a day later it hits me that was wrong? Did I lose my salvation and then get it back a day later? Or do I only get it back next week when I go to confession?

Is my eternal destiny with either in the joys of heaven (maybe after a bout in purgatory) or the torments of hell sort of like a light bulb constantly flickering and and off. And me ultimately making heaven really depends on whether my death is well-timed or not.

It says we must obey God

Again the same type of questions as works. How obedient do we have to be? What if we have some obedience but not as much as Mother Theresa say?

These may be all stupid questions to you, but to me a test of any theological proposition is how well it stands up under any stupid questions that I might ask.

And I am sure you have similar stupid questions you could ask us. But if you have trouble thinking of any…ask me and I can give you a hand.

BTW I could also ask why I should care about what Luther or anybody else who lived 500 years ago said or believed. But that is another set of stupid questions.