Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

[ralphinal]

Now I think that I am getting it.

So, God gives us the Grace to have faith. If we have living faith, we will be saved. Living faith is defined as that faith that does all of those things listed in Matthew 26 and more. Right? Grace leading to faith that works through love. Sweet!! Suddenly, that is Catholic!

 

[Metaron]

Now I think that I am getting it.

So, God gives us the Grace to have faith. If we have living faith, we will be saved. Living faith is defined as that faith that does all of those things listed in Matthew 26 and more. Right? Grace leading to faith that works through love. Sweet!! Suddenly, that is Catholic!

Wow…

God gives grace>>>We can accept that grace, or reject it>>> When we accept it, that grace can give us faith>>>We can make it living Faith or dead faith>>>If we choose living Faith>>> It inspires us to do works>>> These works are evidence of our Faith>>> And God judges us by our works because they are the evidence of our Faith.

Is this right?

 

[grandfather]

What does it mean you are saved by hope as well?

Hope is a gift (grace) as is faith. We do forget at times to place our hope in God, and then we worry. This does not mean we lose hope. We do the same thing with faith. You do not constantly have on your mind the precepts of your faith. Maybe you think about cooking dinner, or paying the bills. That does not mean your faith is gone in that moment.<<

 

[bengal_fan]

I encourage you to swim the Tiber now, bengal_fan; you’re ready. :tiphat:

not quite ready yet. still too many unanswered questions (not that i haven’t read the answers repeatedly, i just can’t reconcile those answers). i am in a spot where i can see where both sides get their arguments from, and (for the most part) they both have a legitimate “leg to stand on” (imo). i lean much more traditional (catholic if you will) on many issues, but there are a few that i do not. i am mostly struggling with what the church has chosen to make necessary for salvation. i do not have a problem really with nearly all of the Mary doctrines (i do not like the title “spouse of God” at all) but do not think they are necessary for salvation and the argument for them being necessary is extremely thin (imo). i know you’ll (the corporate “you”) will say it is just a problem of authority, and maybe it is, but i am trying to be like the bereans and not just believe what “Paul” says but to search the scriptures to find if what he says is true (i am using Paul here as a metaphor for the church as well).

i am still seeking and i know that those who seek to truly find the truth, will find it. God promises that and i believe Him.

 

[grandfather]

not quite ready yet.

Take your time. <<<<<<<<

 

[peary]

**We are saved by GRACE ALONE.

We are JUSTIFIED in the sight of God by our works.**

 

[mozart-250]

Now I think that I am getting it.

So, God gives us the Grace to have faith. If we have living faith, we will be saved. Living faith is defined as that faith that does all of those things listed in Matthew 26 and more. Right? Grace leading to faith that works through love. Sweet!! Suddenly, that is Catholic!

Sometimes I think Catholicism is logically just another Wesleyan denomination and what we have here reduces to Calvinism / Arminianism 2.0. And since I am not necessarily Calvinistic…no big deal.

But the answers to my questions (if they are truly what Catholicism teaches) suggests something more extreme here.

If we really are judged by works, it really begs the question of how many works do we need to do to have eternal life anyway? And the mortal sin issue is really troubling to me because it really suggests my eternal destiny with Christ is like a light bulb that goes on and off and on and off…

So it really appears that this is a faith where I can come to Christ put my faith in Christ…become a child of God…live a normal Christian life where I grow in Christ yet with normal human failing that all Christians experience…eventually return to Christ with these failings etc. But at the same time I have no idea whether I get to live eternally with the Lord (maybe after a bout in purgatory) or spend eternally in the fires and torments of hell after all that because just maybe:

• You were unfortunate to have that heart attack right after missing mass because you went skiing. Too bad. Light bulb is off. Go directly to hell.
• Your works did not meet the minimum required for heaven. Too bad. Go directly to hell.

This is something that no Wesleyan denomination that I know of teaches.

Just trying to get a handle on what Catholicism really teaches and on these points I really get mixed messages.

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi all,

I expressed alot on what I believe the answer to some of your concerns are. I look forward to your comments.
I did not want you to overlook a video, link below, I highly recommended.

Paul Washer talks about the “works” issue head on and who will and who won’t go to heaven.

It is 60 mins long, but worth hearing every minute. I promise you, you may here things that may cause you to want to shut it off. I do believe that Paul Washer is speaking the raw truth of the message the Bible presents as if it were coming directly from God

In his message he talks about being late for a meeting and when he gets there he told the people, that he was sorry for being late. The reason for being late… he was hit by a big logging truck and threw him across the road.

Well it stands to reason that there was no way that could have happened because his body was still intact and there were no broken bones or bruises. So obvious he was crazy or a big liar.

The main theme of His message is that nobody can not have an encounter with almighty God and **not have **any visible sign or change in the way they live their life. This is one of the ways somone can tell if they are “saved” or not.

Paul Washer
youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

God bless you,

Truth

 

[ralphinal]

Mozart,
I understand your point about how many works do we need. I think that you are still reading some thing into it that is not there. It is a matter of doing, not of how much. It is about living the life Christ told us to live. That passage in Matthew shows that we will be judged on what we did when we could and what we did not do when we could as well. Many protestants that I speak to never want to talk about that passage. They jump right back to Paul said this and Paul said that. It frustraits me as a Christian, not a Paulist. I think if you are truly living a Christian life, you will be ok.

With regards to the ski trip question. First, I think most Christians agree that if you die with unrepentant sin, you go to hell. Catholics understand that we have a requirment FROM GOD to attend mass. By choosing to miss mass, and yes, if you miss it to go skiing, you chose, you commit a mortal sin. If you die unrepentant, your are in big trouble. Now, let us say that you were going skiing in an area that has no Catholic Churches. In that case, you had no chance to make it to mass, so no sin was committed. Most places have churches and these churches usually have multiple mass times. There is no excuse. Besides, would you like to tell God that you missed being with him and his church as he commanded because of some fun?

 

[ErikaA]

I almost started a new thread entitled, “To all My Evangelical Friends, a Question.” Here it is:

I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He has made the sacrifice for all my sins and I want to share my joy and faith with all those around me. I am a prostitute and will start evangelizing after I conduct “business.” This is my way of loving my neighbor. Try to tell me this is wrong.

That is the scenario and I wonder if any Protestant can accuse a Christian prostitute of not being a Christian. Put bluntly, are faith and works inseparable? (This requires a yes or no answer only. Either they are or they aren’t.)

 

[sandusky]

ErikaA:

I almost started a new thread entitled, “To all My Evangelical Friends, a Question.” Here it is:

I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He has made the sacrifice for all my sins and I want to share my joy and faith with all those around me. I am a prostitute and will start evangelizing after I conduct “business.” This is my way of loving my neighbor. Try to tell me this is wrong.

That is the scenario and I wonder if any Protestant can accuse a Christian prostitute of not being a Christian.

Earth to Erika…earth to Erika…can you hear me Erika? Can you hear me?

 

[ErikaA]

Earth to Erika…earth to Erika…can you hear me Erika? Can you hear me?

Yes and your silence is deafening. You think I’m kidding and while my example was a rather extreme one, it serves to illustrate the logical consequences of sola fide. Does it not?

 

[sandusky]

Yes and your silence is deafening. You think I’m kidding and while my example was a rather extreme one, it serves to illustrate the logical consequences of sola fide. Does it not?

You’re example illustrates your ignorance, Erika, IMHO.

Scripture condemns adultery, and prostitution, Erika; isn’t that correct?

Do you have any understanding of what Paul is saying when he says, "…if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come," or, for you, are those merely a collection of words, strung together, without point, or meaning?

 

[ErikaA]

You’re example illustrates your ignorance, Erika, IMHO.

Scripture condemns adultery, and prostitution, Erika; isn’t that correct?

Do you have any understanding of what Paul is saying when he says, "…if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come," or, for you, are those merely a collection of words, strung together, without point, or meaning?

But if faith alone is responsible for my salvation and standing before God, then my works are irrelevant? I agree that Scripture contradicts this premise, but then you are contradicting your own belief in Sola Fide. Thus, you believe works are important and inseparable from faith, which is the Catholic position.

This is the issue that makes me want to swim the Tiber. There is such dishonesty and hypocrisy in a Protestant doctrine that claims faith alone saves, but then claims that a prostitute can’t be a Christian cause she’s living in sin. Those statements patently contradict one another. And this, my friends is the great Protestant Folly (wouldn’t Erasmus laugh at that?).

 

[sandusky]

I ask you again, Erikao you have any understanding of what Paul is saying when he says, **

“…if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come,”**

or, for you,

are those merely a collection of words, strung together, without point,
or meaning?

 

[ErikaA]

I ask you again, Erikao you have any understanding of what Paul is saying when he says, **

“…if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come,”**

or, for you,

are those merely a collection of words, strung together, without point,
or meaning?

Ah and this is where we get into interpretation. A new creature could be someone who genuinely strives to love God (in their own ways). How you and I define a new creature may be different. How does Paul define a new creature? Is the new creature sinless? When Paul says the old things passed away, does that imply we are henceforth sinless? If so, then explain in 1John 5:16-17 how these Christians can still be sinning?

Also, Paul says that once the Spirit lives in us, we no longer live according to the sinful nature (Romans 8:4). But what does Paul say in Romans 7:14-25 but that he is a slave to sin in the sinful nature when he talks about doing what he doesn’t want to do? And Paul admonishes the Corinthian Christians to “stop sinning” in 1Cor 15:34. Does Paul contradict himself?

 

[whatisthetruth]

Hi erika

I just wanted to mention to you right off the bat I am a non catholic born again Christian.

Just because I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour does not mean that I at times will not fall to Satans temptation to sin and follow thru by actually sinning.

It does mean however, that in my heart I have a sincere hate for allowing myself to do the things which I now know God hates according to his word in the bible. I currently have a sin which I am struggling with. I hate falling into it everytime I do. I believe God forgives because He knows I have a sincere hate for the sin and want to be delievered from it.

God is the only one who can tell you if you are saved or not.
God is the only one who knows your heart.

using your scenario of a prostitute is a good one.

Let me give you a scenario

you a prostitute and you were trapped in the WTC. Before dying, if you went to God in prayer and said a sincere prayer to Him and said you were sorry for allowing yourself to sin by being a prostitute and expressed a sincere belief in Jesus and the reason He came to forgive your sins accepting the truth of His word in your heart. God would have forgiven you of all your sin.

That is exaclty what one of the thieves on the cross did and not the other.

you were saved by faith alone.

Here is where works come in…

There were a couple of people that fell with the tower and miracously survived. Say one of them was you.

Now after you recover from your injuries you now have a choice

Do you resume a career as a prostitute knowing God hates prostitution.

Or do you persue a career which will honor God according to His Word?

The works which you do from that point will determine to God if you were sincere in your confession.

Paul Washer, a missionary, talks about the “works” issue head on and who will and who won’t go to heaven, video link below

It is 60 mins long, but worth hearing every minute. I promise you, you may here things that may cause you to want to shut it off. I do believe that Paul Washer is speaking the raw truth of the message the Bible presents as if it were coming directly from God

In his message he talks about being late for a meeting and when he gets there he told the people, that he was sorry for being late. The reason for being late… he was hit by a big logging truck and threw him across the road.

Well it stands to reason that there was no way that could have happened because his body was still intact and there were no broken bones or bruises. So obvious he was crazy or a big liar.

The main theme of His message is that nobody can not have an encounter with almighty God and not have any visible sign or change in the way they live their life. This is one of the ways someone can tell if they are “saved” or not.

Paul Washer
youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

God bless you,

Truth

 

[grandfather]

Ah and this is where we get into interpretation. A new creature could be someone who genuinely strives to love God (in their own ways). How you and I define a new creature may be different. How does Paul define a new creature? Is the new creature sinless? When Paul says the old things passed away, does that imply we are henceforth sinless? If so, then explain in 1John 5:16-17 how these Christians can still be sinning?

Also, Paul says that once the Spirit lives in us, we no longer live according to the sinful nature (Romans 8:4). But what does Paul say in Romans 7:14-25 but that he is a slave to sin in the sinful nature when he talks about doing what he doesn’t want to do? And Paul admonishes the Corinthian Christians to “stop sinning” in 1Cor 15:34. Does Paul contradict himself?

Calvin taught that the members of the Church are the predestined and only God knows who they are. He also taught eternal security or once saved always saved. Jesus taught Peter that he had to forgive seventy times seven, indicating that people would fall, repent and fall and repent. If Calvin is right and all members of the Church are saved then the impenitent prostitute is not a Christian, rather than a fallen one. We do not know the final disposition of her soul. What makes a person a new creation? There has to be some change in the person. Some people say they came to faith by having some experience and are changed and now love Jesus, but there really is no change. Their sins remain. They are the same. They are not new creations and somehow think they are. In order to believe this they have to tell themselves their unrepentent sins do not matter and they are saved anyway and have a lock on it. The tragedy of this is they accept their sins as inevitable and will never get victory over them. They think holiness is impossible and unnecessary. They give up, thinking they have a pass. Mercy is offered to the prostitute, but mercy is conditional on repentence. Repentence is a grace. There are two classes of people on this earth, penitent sinners and impenitent sinners. They know who they are. We are either still enslaved or free, today, right now. We go through all kinds of contortions to try to justify ourselves, make our sinfulness acceptable. The impenitent may concoct a theology and tell themselves they are acceptable to God in their sins, in order to justify themselves, such as the snow covered dung theory, but why then did Jesus tell His apostles to tell the nations to repent if it is not necessary?

 

[ErikaA]

Grandfather and Truth, I agree with you that if God does not transform you, you mustn’t know God. (I’m paraphrasing here)

That said, the issues I raise I did to highlight two very important points. First, Protestants are intellectually dishonest when we say we are saved by faith alone and works is irrelevant. Faith is a work. Faith is not paying lip service to God like He is an absentee father handing you the car keys on Friday night. Yes the thief was saved by faith, a visible faith that was clear not only in his verbal profession but also in his continued suffering on Good Friday. As someone on this forum astutely pointed out, the thief was not immediately whisked into paradise upon his profession of faith. He remained on the cross to suffer until the end. Thus, we know his faith was sincere, not some incantation uttered to forgo earthly discomfort. More importantly, he knew his faith was sincere by virtue of his actions.

The second point is this: be careful quoting Scripture to make a point. I can find a verse that contradicts virtually any premise you seek to advance. That is why the Catholic contextual approach to the Bible is far more satisfying to me than the literalist approach taken by many Protestants and also why I believe it is pure folly to study Scripture at the exclusion of the writings of those great interpreters, the Church Fathers.

I say this as a Lutheran who has a Baptist brother and ex-Catholic parents. So I mean no disrespect to anyone. By the way, I hope you all realize the prostitute analogy was just that, a fictitious scenario. I’ve never exchanged sex for money until I got married.

 

[mikeledes]

Since a similar discussion is going on in the Apologetics forum, I’ll repost here what I posted there:

The Catholic Church does not teach that going to heaven depends on the quantity of one’s works. It’s not as if there is a scale in which our good works are weighed against our sins. The works the Catholic church considers “meritorious” are those works performed out of faith and love, love of God and love of neighbor. However, only those who have been justified, regenerated, and in a state of grace can perform these works because only they can have true love for God and neighbor. And this love is iself a gift of God, a fruit of the Holy Spirit working within us.

Moreover, one must persevere. This perseverance is a fruit of God’s grace and we believe that final perseverance (i.e. basically dying in a state of grace) is a gift of God that cannot be earned. God gives us many gifts, gifts that empower us to confom our lives to the gift of justification by obeying God’s call to holiness. Only those who have been delivered from the power of sin (i.e. the justified) can do so. However, we will be held accountable on how we respond to and use these gifts:

Romans 2:6-7

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

John 5:28-29

**Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. **

Galatians 6:7-10

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Revelation 2:26

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

1 Timothy 6:17-19

17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Matthew 25:31-36

**31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ **

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

God Bless,
Michael