Grace/works/Salvation - Protestant disconnect?

[grandfather]

Faith is a work.

I can find a verse that contradicts virtually any premise you seek to advance. … and also why I believe it is pure folly to study Scripture at the exclusion of the writings of those great interpreters, the Church Fathers.

I say this as a Lutheran who has a Baptist brother and ex-Catholic parents. So I mean no disrespect to anyone. By the way, I hope you all realize the prostitute analogy was just that, a fictitious scenario. I’ve never exchanged sex for money until I got married.

Yes faith is a work. At least that is what Catholics claim.

Yes we have to understand scripture with the mind of the Church and not as independent agents.

You are on a one way highway. You reject the two foundational doctrines of Protestantism. Without a foundation the rest can not stand.

Also, I am happy to hear you don’t work nights.

 

[sandusky]

ErikaA:

Ah and this is where we get into interpretation. A new creature could be someone who genuinely strives to love God (in their own ways). How you and I define a new creature may be different. How does Paul define a new creature? Is the new creature sinless? When Paul says the old things passed away, does that imply we are henceforth sinless? If so, then explain in 1John 5:16-17 how these Christians can still be sinning?

Also, Paul says that once the Spirit lives in us, we no longer live according to the sinful nature (Romans 8:4). But what does Paul say in Romans 7:14-25 but that he is a slave to sin in the sinful nature when he talks about doing what he doesn’t want to do? And Paul admonishes the Corinthian Christians to “stop sinning” in 1Cor 15:34. Does Paul contradict himself?

By the way, I hope you all realize the prostitute analogy was just that, a fictitious scenario. I’ve never exchanged sex for money until I got married.

Just want to acknowledge that I’ve read your post.

Thank you. :tiphat:

 

[moondweller]

I disagree, and I’m basing my disagreement on what the Catechism says (I’m Catholic too). I think it would best be “Active Faith Proven by Works” but this is a long title. Or, you could say, “Dynamic Faith Alone” (Faith proven true by works).

So are you saying one must prove his faith to God by works before He (God) saves him? IOW, God doesn’t know the heart and therefore waits for an outward demonstration of faith through works?

But if God doesn’t know the heart then how does He know the works themselves are motivated by true faith? One can demonstrate many works yet have no faith.Rom 10:10 "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."There are no works to prove in the above verse. But an inward faith of the heart in Christ resulting in righteousness (justification, see Rom. 4:5).

If your catechism states that God saves based on “an active faith proven by works,” then it is teaching that God saves only after “proof of faith” - which, ultimately, is salvation by works. You can’t get around it.

But again, if God’s “saving hand” is tied until one’s faith is first demonstrated (proved) to Him by works (not knowing the heart), then how can He know if the works themselves are fueled by faith?

To me this doesn’t even sound like the God of the Bible. He’s far greater than all this.Acts 15:8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;"In context Peter says He cleansed their hearts by faith (vs 9). IOW, God saves through faith alone because God knows the heart.

 

[mozart-250]

Since a similar discussion is going on in the Apologetics forum, I’ll repost here what I posted there:

The Catholic Church does not teach that going to heaven depends on the quantity of one’s works. It’s not as if there is a scale in which our good works are weighed against our sins. The works the Catholic church considers “meritorious” are those works performed out of faith and love, love of God and love of neighbor. However, only those who have been justified, regenerated, and in a state of grace can perform these works because only they can have true love for God and neighbor. And this love is iself a gift of God, a fruit of the Holy Spirit working within us.

OK…that sounds better. It is one thing to disagree on the relationship between faith and works (how to resolve the tension between Ephesians 2:8 and James 2:17). Christians can and do disagree on how exactly that works out (trust me…there are those out there that believe John MacArthur and his lordship salvation is salvation by works…much less Wesley who was as bad as the Catholics).

It is statements like this that lead me to believe Catholicism is just another arminian denomination. However I have read statements here to the opposite.

And the mortal sin issue still is very troubling. It really sounds like you have a light-bulb salvation here. The Arminianism denominations that I know of believe there is one mortal sin…that being the rejection of the faith you embraced. That is not to say that sin is not a serious issue, sin not repented of can lead to rejection of the faith (see James 1:15 where sin brings forth death on how this works out).

Catholicism sounds like there are a gazillion (ok hyperbole here) ways you can lose your salvation, and that you had better hope that you don’t get that sudden heart attack when you are at a low point spiritually or in a position of temporary rebellion.

Moreover, one must persevere. This perseverance is a fruit of God’s grace and we believe that final perseverance (i.e. basically dying in a state of grace) is a gift of God that cannot be earned. God gives us many gifts, gifts that empower us to confom our lives to the gift of justification by obeying God’s call to holiness. Only those who have been delivered from the power of sin (i.e. the justified) can do so. However, we will be held accountable on how we respond to and use these gifts:

Again, Christians should agree that only those that endure to the end are truly regenerate. But they can and do disagree on whether someone that was truly regenerated can fail to persevere.

My one comment is that from a human perspective it certainly appears that there are folks that seemed regenerated that fail to persevere. And there is a certain body of Scripture that appears to speak from this perspective. But there also seems to be a certain body of Scripture that speaks from the perspective of an eternal God who knows the beginning from the end and who in some sense anyway predestinates. I for one will freely admit that I have not resolved these Scriptures in a way in which I am satisfied. But neither is it a high priority for me to do so.

 

[grandfather]

And the mortal sin issue still is very troubling. It really sounds like you have a light-bulb salvation here.

 

[mozart-250]

When people do sin mortally they either lose faith, or tell themselves that their sins are not that bad, that God understands they could not help it, they are only human, everyone does it and go through the process of self justification, or they repent. It takes grace to repent and be restored to God.

If you read the various statements of the arminian Protestant denominations (I have read Assemblies of God for example), they say that sin will lead to destroying your relationship with God. They do not say the relationship is destroyed at the point of sin. Instead they say the relationship is destroyed at the point of losing faith. They also say that sin that is not repented of will eventually lead to losing faith. The Scripture that supports this is James 1:13-15. Notice that there is a progression here…sin does not bring immediate death…but unrepented of will bring death.

We can also look at say Peter. If anybody committed a grave sin it was Peter. But there is no evidence to say that Peter ever lost his relationship with Christ…and after a brief period of time he did repent.

Catholicism implies that Peter lost his salvation through mortal sin in the time period between which he denied Christ and repented (lightbulb salvation). Your classic arminian denominations carry no such implication (Peter of course did repent).

Only those who persevere to the end will be saved. If you don’t you won’t. This is what Catholics believe, but many do not agree. Many think that once saved always saved. Once they accept Jesus as their savior, or recite the sinners prayer they have a lock on heaven no matter what they do.

Your arminian Protestant denominations do not believe this.

Actually your moderate calvinistic Protestant denominations do not believe this either. This is what I think is called hyper-Calvinism.

So you are saying that scripture is not so easy to interpret or figure out. You have not been able to figure it out, but it is not important .

I would use the words of relative lesser importance. I can think of hundreds of things that are of more important for me to get correct (that I don’t have correct) than issues that folks smarter and more spiritual than myself have been debating for centuries without coming to a common agreement upon.

 

[grandfather]

So are you saying one must prove

 

[ralphinal]

If all you have to do is believe, then why did Jesus teach that we would be judged by works? Matthew 26. I know that you are saying that that is living faith, but obviously you have to get off the couch and prove it, unless Jesus’s words are meaningless.

 

[moondweller]

We don’t prove. Our works prove, or demonstrate what is in our hearts.

“Prove” (or demonstrate) to whom, and for what purpose?

 

[moondweller]

If all you have to do is believe, then why did Jesus teach that we would be judged by works? Matthew 26. I know that you are saying that that is living faith, but obviously you have to get off the couch and prove it, unless Jesus’s words are meaningless.

“Prove it” to whom, and for what purpose?

 

[ErikaA]

Define believe for me.

I’ll give you the candy analogy. If my daughter tells me that she believes candy is bad and we shouldn’t eat it and then proceeds to climb up the pantry shelves and eat some candy, what does that tell us about her belief? That it’s self delusion and not genuine.

It’s like this with companies who do marketing research. When they ask people which type of potato chips they like better, people often say they like ones with less salt and oil. But you know what these same people choose in blind taste tests everytime - the chips with the most salt and oil. What people profess with their mouths is often just what they think they should believe. But what we do - that indicates what we really believe.

It’s easy to delude ourselves about any number of things - “I am not prejudiced” from the person who won’t associate with people of a lower socio-economic class, “I don’t eat much” from the obese person who devours chips and candy everyday, “I care about the environment” from the person who occasionally litters. These people want to believe what they say because they instinctively know it’s right to be just and temperate and a good steward. But what are there real beliefs? They really believe that whatever makes them feel good, whatever provides them the pleasure, convenience and self satisfaction they desire is what’s right. Although they don’t want to admit this because it’s tantamount to admitting our own fallability and depravity.

If there is one thing we can all agree on it’s this: Jesus abhors self-delusion. That is why, in one sense, Peter’s denial helped Peter better understand himself. It is why Jesus loved the rich man who sorrowfully refused to give away all his possessions. Because Jesus helped shed Peter and rich young ruler of their delusions. This is why faith without works is dead. Because then it is not faith at all, but self delusion. But only grace can reveal such truths to us. Thus it is by grace that we are saved through a faith that is nothing if it is not a visible, continuous work.

 

[ralphinal]

“Prove it” to whom, and for what purpose?

I would say, first of all, it proves it to the world that we are believers. We are the light of the world. We should let our light shine before men, that they may see the GOOD that WE DO and give glory to God (Matt 5:16). It is by our works that the world will know that we are Christian.

Second, I would say that it proves our faith in God. True, He knows the content of our heart. In the final judgement, though, when all is made known, our works will show to everyone why God is truly just in our eternal sentence. See Matt 7:21, it is not enough to say Lord, Lord, but to do the will of the Father, Matt 19:16-17 To enter the kingdom, you must keep the commandments. Jesus added in verse 21 that if you have done all of this, to be perfect, go sell all that you have, give it to the poor and follow him (all works). Finally, from Matthew 25:31-46 the sheep and the goats are not separated on faith but on if they DID things for the least of His people.

Based on Matthew’s Gosple alone, there are works required for salvation. Please note that I did not quote Paul or James or any other epistles. In my opinion, Jesus was clear enough that all I have to do is trust in His words.

 

[mikeledes]

OK…that sounds better. It is one thing to disagree on the relationship between faith and works (how to resolve the tension between Ephesians 2:8 and James 2:17). Christians can and do disagree on how exactly that works out (trust me…there are those out there that believe John MacArthur and his lordship salvation is salvation by works…much less Wesley who was as bad as the Catholics).

It is statements like this that lead me to believe Catholicism is just another arminian denomination. However I have read statements here to the opposite.

And the mortal sin issue still is very troubling. It really sounds like you have a light-bulb salvation here. The Arminianism denominations that I know of believe there is one mortal sin…that being the rejection of the faith you embraced. That is not to say that sin is not a serious issue, sin not repented of can lead to rejection of the faith (see James 1:15 where sin brings forth death on how this works out).

Catholicism sounds like there are a gazillion (ok hyperbole here) ways you can lose your salvation, and that you had better hope that you don’t get that sudden heart attack when you are at a low point spiritually or in a position of temporary rebellion.

Again, Christians should agree that only those that endure to the end are truly regenerate. But they can and do disagree on whether someone that was truly regenerated can fail to persevere.

My one comment is that from a human perspective it certainly appears that there are folks that seemed regenerated that fail to persevere. And there is a certain body of Scripture that appears to speak from this perspective. But there also seems to be a certain body of Scripture that speaks from the perspective of an eternal God who knows the beginning from the end and who in some sense anyway predestinates. I for one will freely admit that I have not resolved these Scriptures in a way in which I am satisfied. But neither is it a high priority for me to do so.

I think much of the problem lies in the Catholic vs. Protestant understanding of justification. If Catholics understood justification to mean exclusively acquittal from one’s sins, then we would probably not be having this debate. However, Catholics understand justification to mean not only forgiveness of sin, but also the internal renewal of the person. They are not only legally rigteous before God, but also inwardly righteous as well. That is why we speak of justifcation as a process, becuase this inward aspect of justification is a process that lasts for the rest of a Christian’s life. This does not mean that when we initially receive the grace of justification that it is not sufficient for our salvation. If we were to die immediately after we receive that grace, Catholics believe we would go to heaven. However,as Catholics, we believe that we can grow in grace and that performing good works/obeying God is essential for our daily renewal.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Fisher]

NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5).

Romans 4:5 couldn’t be any clearer… “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his **faith is counted for righteousness.” ** Our only part in being saved is to believe upon the Savior, because of the precious blood He applied to the Mercy Seat in Heaven for our sins; Salvation is of God alone.

Now if a person has genuinely repented unto salvation, then there will be a change in that person’s life (2nd Corinthians 5:17); BUT, the change comes AFTERWARDS, not as a prerequisite to be saved, as Lordship Salvationists teach. This is what James meant when he said, “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works” (James 2:18). James is speaking about the FRUIT of our Christian faith; not the ROOT, which Paul speaks of in Romans 4:3-5. In Genesis 15:6, Abraham was justified by FAITH in the eyes of God; BUT in Genesis 22, Abraham was justified by WORKS in the eyes of men when he offered up Isaac (James 2:21). Many people today are confused between these two.

There should be some type of change in a professed Christian’s life. Although it is true that Christians are still sinners, no genuine believer feels that they have a license to freely sin. If there was true repentance at the alleged time of salvation, then a person’s mind will have changed towards sin. This is not to say that a person has to forsake their sins to be saved; BUT, rather, if there was a genuine regeneration of the soul, then the Holy Spirit will convict that child of God about sin (Hebrews 12:6-8).

Romans 11:6 clarifies this matter, “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE: otherwise work is no more work.” If salvation comes by works, then it is NOT by God’s grace anymore. The whole reason that Jesus died on the cross is because we could not perform enough good works to get saved. There is NO amount of good deeds that can reconcile us to God. Only through Jesus Christ can anyone be saved. If it were possible for us to get to Heaven by living a good and upright life, then Jesus died for nothing. “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN” (Galatians 2:21).

 

[mikeledes]

NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5).

Romans 4:5 couldn’t be any clearer… “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his **faith is counted for righteousness.” ** Our only part in being saved is to believe upon the Savior, because of the precious blood He applied to the Mercy Seat in Heaven for our sins; Salvation is of God alone.

Okay. Catholics do not believe that doing good works is a prerequisite for justification. We don’t believe that God says “Okay, you’ve fulfilled your good works quota. I now declare you righteous.” Prior to being in a state of grace, man cannot possibly do any work that is in any sense meritorious before God. Once one has been regenerated and delivered from enslavement to sin, God empowers the Christian to do those works that are pleasing to Him and that He has promised to reward. Once we are justified, we are now obligated to conform our lives to this gift by living a holy life, which enatils good works. We will be judged according to our works and will thus be held accountable on how we use the gifts God has given us (grace, the Holy Spirit, faith, love, etc.):

Romans 2:6-7

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

John 5:28-29

**Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. **

Galatians 6:7-10

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Revelation 2:26

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

1 Timothy 6:17-19

17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Matthew 25:31-36

**31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ **

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

1 Peter 1:16-17

,** 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;**

God Bless,
Michael

 

[grandfather]

“Prove” (or demonstrate) to whom, and for what purpose?

It is like breathing. Breathing proves you are alive to anyone who is interested, including your self, for the purpose of living.

 

[ErikaA]

There should be some type of change in a professed Christian’s life. Although it is true that Christians are still sinners, no genuine believer feels that they have a license to freely sin. If there was true repentance at the alleged time of salvation, then a person’s mind will have changed towards sin. This is not to say that a person has to forsake their sins to be saved; BUT, rather, if there was a genuine regeneration of the soul, then the Holy Spirit will convict that child of God about sin (Hebrews 12:6-8).

So will I be convicted about all sin, some sin or the sins that I really never liked to begin with? Because, I wonder Fisher, do you know of any good Christian women who gossip, slander or envy? Do you yourself know of any Christians who are selfish or gluttonous with food/drink? If so, then where is the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Are these people being tormented by the Holy Spirit but just haven’t felt the conviction to change yet? Are they Christians at all and if so, what about the Christian prostitute or homosexual? Why isn’t their faith similarly genuine?

 

[grandfather]

Romans 4:5 couldn’t be any clearer… “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his **faith is counted for righteousness.” **

 

[moondweller]

It is like breathing. Breathing proves you are alive to anyone who is interested, including your self, for the purpose of living.

So then the “proof” has nothing to do with salvation. Or are you saying you must prove yourself “alive” through works before God and men before He saves you? Which translates into salvation not through faith but works.

 

[ErikaA]

Moondweller, is faith the same as wishful thinking? If not, how do they differ?