Graven Images in the Catholic Church

[Robyn_p]

Hi All,

Sorry I haven’t been able to respond to the responses I have received here. I greatly appreciate them. I’ve been thinking over carefully, and I would like to admit (happily, because I believe it’s true) that my position on this topic has changed, due in large part to one or two of the arguments presented here (especially in regards to the images in the Temple built without an explicit command).

I’m still not convinced that we should have images or statues representing God himself, but I do admit that I was wrong about images in general (so long as they are not worshipped, of course).

Glad to hear this!

As far as images of God go, do you believe images depicting Christ’s human nature are wrong? Or is it more images of God in His divine nature that you think we should avoid? Just trying to understand your position better.

Interestingly enough, while I’ve seen paintings that have God in them, (I’m thinking right now of the Sistine Chapel) I’ve never once seen an actual statue depicting God in a Catholic Church. There’s always one or two of Christ, and one of the Blessed Mother, and a few saints, but I can’t recall ever seeing one of the Trinity.

This doesn’t mean there aren’t any, obviously, since I haven’t visited every parish in the world, but it does seem to me that statues representing God in his divine nature are pretty rare. It’s possible the Church even discourages them. I’ll have to do more research into this however, since I’m not 100% sure what the Church teaches about this.

But just based on my own experience, it appears the Church might agree with you here.

 

[BrassAnkles]

I don’t deny much of your argument here (assuming of course that we can agree Jews did not believe in making images of God, and I think we can).

What I would say though is this: I still believe that at the time of Christ, the norm was definitely NOT to make images of any kind in places of worship, unless commanded. However, as you point out, the “norm” was likely different before the time of Christ (at some point) and was definitely different a few hundred years after Christ, which really holds no weight in this conversation.

So the previous statements I made were partially true. At the time of Christ, images were not generally allowed unless commanded, but before Christ, there were eras that allowed for more imagery.

Either way, I agree with your overall argument that images should be allowed in Church (the exception being images that depict God, which I know we disagree about).

Please provide scholarly references that establish that the status quo at the time of Christ changed regarding images not directly ordered by God.

 

[Robyn_p]

Please provide scholarly references that establish that the status quo at the time of Christ changed regarding images not directly ordered by God.

Not sure if you misunderstood him, but jinc said he now agrees with us that images are permissible, even if not directly commanded by God.

 

[BrassAnkles]

Not sure if you misunderstood him, but jinc said he now agrees with us that images are permissible, even if not directly commanded by God.

I was referring to this statement:

“At the time of Christ, images were not generally allowed unless commanded, but before Christ, there were eras that allowed for more imagery.”

 

[ericc]

Some posters here are accusing 2 very important persons of lying and/or not doing his job.

Mat 16:18 and Mat 28:20 “gates of Hades shall not prevail” & “I am with you always”
John 16:13 “…he will guide into all the truth…”

If having paintings, statues, stained glass windows depicting God and his love story for us is sinful, then Jesus would be made a liar and the Holy Spirit didn’t do His job of guiding us into all truths. In fact Christ being head of His Church would be seriously guilty of breaking his own commandment. Despite his many communication with his Saints the last 2000 years, I have never encountered a single case asking them to junk the statues and paintings in the Church or homes. All these are to glorify God, not idol worship. None of the plaster, wood, stone, paintings, glassware depicting God, His mother, angels, friends are being worshiped as Gods. These are VISUAL AIDS. We use visual aids to help us focus, remember, contemplate, visualise and any other useful verbs to help us connect with God and his community.

Jesus spoke very plainly about external vs internal worship. It is all in the INTENT of the mind/heart. Catholics don’t really care what others think how we appear to worship is up to someone’s standard or not. We worship God everywhere, whether the statues are there or not. If a statue gets knocked down and the head of the statue get’s lopped off, our God didn’t get decapitated and dies and we have to create a new statue/god to replace the one that was so incapable/incompetent of preventing his head from being taken off.

Visual aids help to focus. Anyone who has done presentations know how crucial it is to get the audience to focus on the message. In the old days, people are illiterate. Visual aids are a helpful method to spread the Good News. Even for the deaf, seeing these images can tell a story without audio support. In modern days, visual aids are indispensable in communicating. I don’t see that going away. So in modern 3D imagery, (such as the one Star Wars Princess Leia 3D projection) in the decades to come, does it still fit the graven image tag? Or if it is a plasma/LED screen of the Saints, is that graven image? Hello, we don’t worship big TV screens, although some seems to spend a lot of time in front of them.

In the OT, God commanded circumcision. Catholics don’t do that. Yet, I don’t see posters bringing up this point. We eat pork and many other things. We “work” good deeds on a Sabbath/Sunday which was against OT customs. Yet there is no big hoo-hah on this either. We consume the body and blood of Jesus which apparently is also prohibited in OT laws as some folks said we are practicing cannibalism or consumption of blood or something like that. We don’t follow the 600+ OT rules, rituals, etc and yet we don’t get spanked for that, at least not prominently.

So why the fixation on graven images? We still worship God, we don’t do idols. We still do the spirit of the law though.

So should someone tell off Jesus and the Holy Spirit for lying and slacking on the job? Or should the poster reflect the real reason for this topic? Is it external or internal that is important to him/her? Isn’t the substance of the reason behind these statues more important than the appearance?

 

[kainosktisis]

I’m coming into this a bit late, but I struggled with a similar issue. I think what did it for me was this (Apologies if I’m just reiterating what someone else had posted. I haven’t had time to go through the whole thread…):

This is from Deuteronomy 4:

9 Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them fade from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.

10 Remember the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when he said to me, “Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children.”

11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness.

12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.

13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

14 And the Lord directed me at that time to teach you the decrees and laws you are to follow in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.

Idolatry Forbidden

15 You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,

17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air,

18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

20 But as for you, the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

In the New Covenant, we see this:

From John 14:

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

And finally this in Colossians 1:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Hope this helps…

kk