Graven Images in the Catholic Church

[MarkInOregon]

I don’t disagree with the creation of images of people outside of a context of worship, so I won’t even address your point there.

I think you are spot-on when it comes to the point that the church had a consensus and decided that it would be allowed. That’s a historical fact, but that doesn’t mean the consensus was right.

You say there’s nothing in the OT that rejects the use of images, but the Ten Commandments clearly do with a straightforward reading, but obviously you would disagree with that. I think we can both agree, however, that a reasonable person could read Exodus that way.

Meriam Websters defines “graven image” as an object of worship carved and it is my understanding that the phrase “graven image” comes from the KJ translation of the Bible (and I will not speculate as to way the word was translated as such as it would not be charitable on my part) and that the word translated as such literally means “an idlol”. So I think you are reading a prohibition here that does not exist. It would seem the prohibition is against “idols” and not carvings in general.

As for a reasonable or plain reading of “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything…” How do you dismiss that later part as not applying to anything outside the context of worship? If you concede (as you appear to do) this is about worship and not worshiping images–how do you then reject the Catholic position–if you acknowledge we do not bow down to nor worship images? We don’t have idols in our churches (i.e. graven images) and we do not bow down to or serve any of the images.

The Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Silvana1961]

Thanks. I had already read that source…and while it answers some questions, it definitely does not prove the point.

The crux of the argument seems to be that only worship of graven images or images is prohibited, not the use of them in worship. But nowhere in the text will you find that qualification…and there is no evidence the Jews ever understood this commandment in the way the Catholic Church now teaches it. If the Catholic understanding is right, why didn’t the Jews see it the same way?

I have to agree with you, I have been to processions in my neighborhood where they parade statues of the Blessed Mother & Saints, kissing them and putting money on them as well.
I read this explanation as well. It seems a bit reaching, and some bending…I feel- just to be safe and true to the Lord, I eliminate these things from my life and don’t attend these parades and feasts any longer. As far as statues in the church, I close my eyes when I pray, I don’t kiss statues- we Have a jealous God, all glory goes to him

 

[MarkInOregon]

Not to be disrespectful but you are making too many excuses for actions like that. The verse was already posted with the last part bolded: “You shall not bow down or serve them…”. This is what is happening in those churches… they are bowing down towards it and serving it with all the decorations, candels, praises, etc etc… The actions that are happening in Guadalupe is NOT in anyway the same as some person being emotional to his family member, this is the same actions and reverence given by pagans to their gods. Look at all the paintings of ancient greece, read as to how various old religions approached statues of their gods. It was the same way. To deny that this is already crossing the line to idolitry (regardless of them not knowing it) is just being biased. The Verse in Exodus already says it… bowing down to statues is prohibited. No matter what they are feeling or think they are doing. I don’t see how Crawling on the floor, with anything related to the Statue (whether it be roses to pictures…) tucked between the heart, with praises and wishes coming out of their lips as they go to a kneel position to face down repeatedly, is different bowing down to the statue. Again, no disrespect… i thank you for your replies and i’m not knocking the Church but actions like is just wrong.

I am glad to see that you are able to clearly judge all these actions and see into the hearts of all these people and discern what they are doing. You are truly a more holy person than I am.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Robyn_p]

Can you give us the Biblical passages for this?

Numbers 21:8-9 and Exodus 25:18-20

 

[MarkInOregon]

Many people do read the first way, but I don’t think that’s absolutely necessary. The context of the passage is clearly within a worship setting. Therefore, I think it’s reasonable to say that images not in a worship setting are permissible.

I think it is incorrect to say that the context of the passage is clearly within a worship setting–I don’t think it is. The commandment we are discussing deals with our relationship with or to God and that applies to our whole life. It is about having idols in our lives–not just in some worship building. Look around you–peoples lives today are filled with many idols–money, power, sex, food, etc.–these are the things a good portion of the population worships today. This narrow focus on statues does a disservice to people because it makes everyone think “Hey I don’t worship idols” as they bow down and worship money or power or lust or…The commandment is about idols, man made things, created things that are worshiped in our lives.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Silvana1961]

Hello Everyone,

It’s been awhile since I posted, but I am hopeful many of you will help me out with this issue.

I cannot for the life of me understand why it is considered acceptable to have graven images of God, saints, angels, etc. in church when the Bible clearly seems to indicate otherwise. I have read some Catholic apologetics on this, but not a lot. I didn’t find any of their arguments very persuasive, so I was wondering if you all could point me in the right direction on this important issue.

Thanks and God Bless!

-Justin

I went in the Vatican website, and looking at the Ten Commandments I see number two is NOT thou shall not have graven images…etc. so we can have statues and such…since it was decided that it was ok, and not the second commandment of old anymore. I just found this out recently, and I went to Catholic school!

 

[Mintaka]

Actually, for Catholics, the sin of idolatry is included in the First Commandment:

“I am the Lord your God. You shall not have other gods beside Me.”

If you want to learn the entirety of the verses, it’s there for you to learn.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has a very nice chart showing how the relevant passages from Deuteronomy and Exodus are combined for the catechetical form of the Ten Commandments. Many Protestants have different commandment orders and catechetical formats, as do Jews.

 

[jinc1019]

Fair enough. Nevertheless, you can see how my response answers your questions, can’t you? You seem concerned that some of the bishops “were wrong” when they argued against icons. That’s immaterial, given that, as a body, they came to a decision together.

You also question whether the consensus was ‘correct’. As you might have observed, that question is equivalent to the question “is the magisterium capable of error in matters of faith and morals?” If you hope to prevail in asserting that the consensus was incorrect – and therefore, the Catholic belief that the magisterium is infallible in matters of faith and morals – you’re going to need a stronger case than simply asking the question “isn’t this different than Jewish belief?”…

You are right. I don’t believe for a second that the early consensus was anything close to what Catholicism today teaches about the Magisterium. Not even close. I don’t think a single bishop at the Council of Nicea would have…But that’s getting into a completely different topic that will certainly derail this conversation very quickly.

 

[jinc1019]

Greetings Justin,
After getting caught up with all the posts on this thread I decided to go back and re-read your op. It now seems to me you were looking for more than just the right direction to be pointed out. My suggestion now is prayer…if in fact you are truly searching as your op suggests.

Peace!!!

I am! I pray daily about it. Thank you!

 

[jinc1019]

Perhaps, but given the fact that the Bible, in every other instance God designs something, goes to great pains to make sure that we know for sure it was God who designed it, I’m not convinced that’s what is going on here. Especially considering how central the temple was in Jewish thought and belief. It makes sense that if God did in fact have a say in the details, the writer would have wanted to record that and make sure future generations knew that the temple was God’s own work. The fact that it nowhere mentions that is telling, to me at least.

To me, saying, “if you will walk in my statutes and obey my ordinances and keep all my commandments and walk in them” doesn’t really signal that God is referring to the temple design. It sounds more like God is just telling Solomon to follow the commandments and remain faithful. I don’t recall God using that kind of language when instructing Moses on how to build the ark. That’s always the language he uses when commanding people to keep the covenant. In other words, he’s saying “stay faithful to me, and I’ll keep my end of the promise I made to David your father.”

At any rate, it is certainly too vague to prove that images were only permissible when God explicitly commanded them. Just reading the account, I can’t find anything that says God did command those images.

That is a totally fair criticism. I’m still researching your point, but as of now, yeah…I think you presented the absolute best evidence in favor of the Catholic position on this issue. No question in my mind about it.

 

[jinc1019]

I think the historical record and the Bible are clear, there were icons and statues that were part of the ancient Jewish tradition.

Obviously, I disagree. But in fairness, I am still researching the issue.

 

[jinc1019]

Then this discussion is pretty much over. Before reasoning out anything, anything at all that’s Catholic, the very first thing you need to address is the issue of authority. There is no point in any of us explaining the matter of images because you do not accept the authority of the Catholic Church.

So I will simply leave you with this: why then, do you accept the authority of the Bible?

I won’t go down that road because it’s WAY off topic. There are MANY, MANY reasons not to believe the Catholic claims regarding authority.

 

[jinc1019]

I have misrepresented nothing. This is from the link you provided.

** Over time, this commandment has been interpreted in a VARIETY of ways. The most common prohibition, and the one that’s most obvious from the text, is against creating sculptures of people, animals, or planets FOR THE PURPOSE of worshipping them. One of the primary messages of the Torah is that worshipping idols is not allowed, so it’s not surprising that creating pieces of art that COULD be used as idols was prohibited.You asked specifically about drawing the human form, so I’ll give you a bit more history on how that issue is treated in rabbinic literature. The Talmud comments on the second commandment, and takes a very strict stance against producing images of faces, ruling it forbidden, but sanctioning owning images of faces that were created by non-Jews (Avodah Zara 43a). The prohibition comes FROM A CONCERN that even two dimensional images COULD be worshipped, or COULD represent idols. In some Jewish communities during the Middle Ages artists got around this prohibition by drawing human bodies topped with heads of other animals, including birds. The famousbird head Haggadahfrom 12th century Germany is an example of this phenomenon.

I’m sorry, I understand EXACTLY what this article is saying. I also understand that the word COULD does not mean the word DOES. Do you?

No, I don’t think you do understand. I don’t care what Jews thought hundreds of years after Christ. The issue is: What did they think before Christ came and at the time of Christ. That’s the context within which the whole Christian narrative in the Bible is laid out! The answer to that is clear from the passage cited…The oldest source we have says drawing humans was forbidden.

 

[jinc1019]

Consider how it was God Himself that ordered image of Angels, etc. when your interpretation of the Bible seems to indicate that their understanding was different from yours.

Were you unaware of God’s commands to make these images and statues?

Once again, for probably the 10th time now, if God commands it, no matter what it is, it’s permissible. Are you really saying that because God commands something to occur in very rare instances that this means we can do it all the time? Think about that. It seems to me God commanded that Abraham kill his son. It seems to me that God commanded Israel to go to war. Does that mean we can kill our children and go to war? Of course not!

 

[jinc1019]

Meriam Websters defines “graven image” as an object of worship carved and it is my understanding that the phrase “graven image” comes from the KJ translation of the Bible (and I will not speculate as to way the word was translated as such as it would not be charitable on my part) and that the word translated as such literally means “an idlol”. So I think you are reading a prohibition here that does not exist. It would seem the prohibition is against “idols” and not carvings in general.

As for a reasonable or plain reading of “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything…” How do you dismiss that later part as not applying to anything outside the context of worship? If you concede (as you appear to do) this is about worship and not worshiping images–how do you then reject the Catholic position–if you acknowledge we do not bow down to nor worship images? We don’t have idols in our churches (i.e. graven images) and we do not bow down to or serve any of the images.

The Peace of Christ,
Mark

I would love to discuss all of those points, but it’s going to get way off-topic. A short version of an answer is this: What does “worship” mean? What does “serve” mean? I believe the Greek version of the OT, the very same version Jesus would have had access to, shows a very different understanding of “worship” and “serve” than how the CC defines it today. I’ll leave it at that, because if I don’t, things will get way off-topic.

 

[jinc1019]

I have to agree with you, I have been to processions in my neighborhood where they parade statues of the Blessed Mother & Saints, kissing them and putting money on them as well.
I read this explanation as well. It seems a bit reaching, and some bending…I feel- just to be safe and true to the Lord, I eliminate these things from my life and don’t attend these parades and feasts any longer. As far as statues in the church, I close my eyes when I pray, I don’t kiss statues- we Have a jealous God, all glory goes to him

Many here will vehemently disagree with you, but I absolutely understand why you would feel that way.

 

[jinc1019]

I think it is incorrect to say that the context of the passage is clearly within a worship setting–I don’t think it is. The commandment we are discussing deals with our relationship with or to God and that applies to our whole life. It is about having idols in our lives–not just in some worship building. Look around you–peoples lives today are filled with many idols–money, power, sex, food, etc.–these are the things a good portion of the population worships today. This narrow focus on statues does a disservice to people because it makes everyone think “Hey I don’t worship idols” as they bow down and worship money or power or lust or…The commandment is about idols, man made things, created things that are worshiped in our lives.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

I don’t disagree. I didn’t say a “church setting,” I said a “worship” setting. Worship can and does occur everywhere, not just in a church building somewhere. I too think it can occur in people’s homes and in public and that it often does. My point is that it has to do with worship, not history, science, or other aspects of human life.

 

[jinc1019]

I went in the Vatican website, and looking at the Ten Commandments I see number two is NOT thou shall not have graven images…etc. so we can have statues and such…since it was decided that it was ok, and not the second commandment of old anymore. I just found this out recently, and I went to Catholic school!

Actually…it’s more complicated than that! I don’t think the numbering was an attempt by Catholics to mislead people. There are lots of ways you could number the Ten Commandments. Every commandment counts, no matter where it is in scripture, and I think Catholics agree with that notion.

 

[Robyn_p]

That is a totally fair criticism. I’m still researching your point, but as of now, yeah…I think you presented the absolute best evidence in favor of the Catholic position on this issue. No question in my mind about it.

Cool. :tiphat: Let me know how your research goes. If you find something I missed, I’m willing to hear it.

 

[Mintaka]

People linked you to mosaic synagogue floors from the time of Christ, and people linked you to painted synagogue walls from the time of Christ. The only thing that Jews didn’t draw, in
those paintings, was God Himself – but they did show a hand descending from clouds, which represents the Hand of God.