Graven Images

[wmscott]

Another scholarly question, if we refer to the 10 commandments in Exodus, we find part of the translation as…

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,"

No idols, nothing in heaven, nothing on the earth, nothing in the water. Basically no images. Would this not technically include the saints, mary, the crucifix? Or was this restated in the new testament to remove this requirement?

Please, no flaming each other. Just debate.

I had this very issue when I was considering converting in 1982. It was one of those false accusations against the CC left over from my old So Bapt days. My loving wife and the Priest from our parish had a hard time getting it through to me. No matter how many and different ways they explained it to me I had trouble with it.

So let me tell you how I came around to understanding it. I had to pray a lot for guidance and understanding and after a time I believe the Holy Spirit revealed to me the answer I was looking for. I would like to share it with you.

Let’s look at the Commandment of our Lord

Then God delivered all these commandments:
"I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus20.htm

That was it, the last sticking point with me. However, what I believe was reviled to me was these words “in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth” that hit home. Remember in the Movie the Ten Commandments and also in Sacred Scripture when Moses is on the mountain getting the Commandments. His people grew impatient and wanted a visible, tangible god that they could touch, so they built the golden calf to be their god. It could have been a fish, or a bird, or most any other creature, it would all have been the same “in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth”. They chose a calf to worship as a god, going beyond what an icon is and ascribing divine power and authority in that one particular calf. They chose to worship something beneath God, it was not the carved image that they worshiped, and it was the golden calf itself that they worshiped.

Icons can be a very focusing when praying. We are not praying to that image or icon as if that actual physical image or statue of Jesus was a visible and tangible god. We can use images and icons much in the same way as if we are telling a story and the pictures and artifacts aid in telling that story and keeping us focused on what the story is about, painting a vivid picture in our minds.

I sincerely hope that this explanation is of help to you.

By the way I did convert shortly after my revelation.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Actually this is not really true. Many Protestant denominations believe that Jesus is real present under the wine and bread. What they do not accept is the artificial construct of defining how it happens. Catholicism has decided to speculate on this event. Some Protestants, those that believe in the real presence, tend to allow the “how” of this remain mystery, unknowable by humans.

So in fact I don’t imagine there is necessarily an objection to Eucharistic adornation. We keep the light on at all times too!

Not to get to far out on a tangent, but the doctrine of transubstantiation is not speculation on what occurs, but an attempt to describe what Christianity already understood to be occurring - the changing of bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus although no evidence of change is discernible. The Eucharist is still a mystery of faith, even though the Church declared what most of Christendom already accepted, that the bread is no longer bread and the wine is no longer wine, having changed in “substance.” The use of these terms was to explain the apparent contradiction between a declared change of a thing without having discernible evidence of a change in that thing.

How that change occurs is still quite mysterious and is not the subject of the doctrine. What I believe most protestants reject is the real change of bread and wine, when they redefine the sacrament to be something to the effect that Christ is made present with bread and wine. This contradicts Scripture and Tradition - which both highlight Christ’s declaration, “This IS my body” and “This IS my blood” (Not, “My body and blood are present together with this bread and wine.”) Catholic doctrine goes no further than what scripture and tradition had already defined, while the reformed understanding of the Eucharist is consistent with neither the actual language of scripture nor Christianity prior to the era of the Reformation.

Perhaps this deserves its own thread for discussion? Sorry for the tangent.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Yes that would include the statues and paintings, while in letter they are not said to be worshiped in practice they are.

Not if you are practicing your faith as a Catholic.

historyb:

Also anything can become an idol beyond statues and pictures

Like Protestantism.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Oh think the point is well made. Some people do treat the bible as if it were God and thus worship it. I think it can be the subject of being an idol.

Agreed.

 

[wmscott]

I do not object to nativity scenes, because people do not pray to them, or ask them for favors etc.

While educated in Catholic schools we were taught to pray to the statues in our Church of Mary, Jesus, Joseph and various saints and ask for intercession or answers to our prayer requests. Church members would slip money into an offering box and light candles to these statues, and venerate them. Relics of saints were worn for protection and reverence. This is idol worship, plain and simple.

New to the forum I see. This is a tired old argument that has played out many times over, however a little research from credible sources would educate you with regards to the accusations you make. The time spent being educated in a Catholic school would have been better spent doing some research into this subject rather sitting there being closed minded and judgmental. The only thing you bring to this discussion is falsehood an misinformation.

By the way, I am a convert to the CC, I used to be a Southern Baptist. I know where you are coming from and all of the lies that you have been taught about the CC.

But I am going to give you a hint as to where to start doing some research on this subject so that you can better educate yourself, you are probably holding it right now or it is beside you…. Your Bible. Don’t cherry pick it either. If you need some references, there is plenty on this site to point you in the right direction. You can use your very own Bible to verify the references here on this site. Happy reading

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I do not object to nativity scenes, because people do not pray to them, or ask them for favors etc.

Catholics don’t ask statues for favors. Catholics ask the saints to pray for them to God. We do not bow down and worship statues as the Jews in the desert bowed down to the golden calf. Candles and statues are not (and never have been) the object of adoration, or even veneration. Money placed in an offering box is usually just to reimburse the parish for the cost of the candle; it is not an offering to the candle, or to a statue.

I would be laughing at a post like this, but for the fact that I know so many people take what this says as if it were all true when in fact it is nothing but falsehood and misrepresentation.

informed:

While educated in Catholic schools we were taught to pray to the statues in our Church of Mary, Jesus, Joseph and various saints and ask for intercession or answers to our prayer requests. Church members would slip money into an offering box and light candles to these statues, and venerate them. Relics of saints were worn for protection and reverence. This is idol worship, plain and simple.

This is a complete misrepresentation of the Catholic teaching regarding use of icons, prayer to the saints, forms of prayer, veneration, and… apparently… pious practices like the wearing of scapulars and/or holy medals. (I sincerely doubt that anyone at your alleged Catholic school was wearing a first class relic) None of these practices amount to idolatry - plain and simple. My dear “informed” you are significantly misinformed.

Peace,
Robert

 

[slyboots]

I do not object to nativity scenes, because people do not pray to them, or ask them for favors etc.

While educated in Catholic schools we were taught to pray to the statues in our Church of Mary, Jesus, Joseph and various saints and ask for intercession or answers to our prayer requests. Church members would slip money into an offering box and light candles to these statues, and venerate them. Relics of saints were worn for protection and reverence. This is idol worship, plain and simple.

If you were “educated in Catholic schools” you would have been taught better.
Please quit trying to pretend you were taught anything of the sort.

 

[The_Preacher]

Another scholarly question, if we refer to the 10 commandments in Exodus, we find part of the translation as…

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,"

No idols, nothing in heaven, nothing on the earth, nothing in the water. Basically no images. Would this not technically include the saints, mary, the crucifix? Or was this restated in the new testament to remove this requirement?

Please, no flaming each other. Just debate.

Your thesis asks for scholarly debate. Well, they tell me I are un. A biblical scholar that is, M.div, STM and years of teaching it. Have you ever noticed that the “Ten Commandments” change between their initial prologation and their later reading in the presence of the people (both in Exodus). The “graven Images” clause drops out. Apparently the redactors didn’t consider it to be all that graven in stone. Nether the Cahtolic Church nore the Lutheran Ecclesial Community harp on the earlier version. The misunderstanding of the meaning of “graven Image” has caused much trouble as in the Iconoclastic Controversy and the later madness in England. To say nothing of the exreme problems in Islam (some Imams forbid pastport photos). In fact, socieoanthropologically it refers to the investing of power and indeed divinity in an object, not just the representation of the divine. Icons are a tool of focus in prayer. One prays through them, not to them. They are indeed consecrated; that is set aside for religious use, but not themselves made diefied, so there is no problem in ether case. And yes my mind is not wired for spelling. That’s what TAs are for.Don’t try to understand to believe. Believe to understand!:tiphat:

 

[QuickCat]

Think about this: Christendom presents our Lord Jesus Christ either as a corpse hanging on the cross or as a helpless baby. The apostle to the Gentiles [Paul] presents Him as the risen, exalted Lord Jesus Christ and tells us that we “no longer know Him after the flesh” 2 Corinthians 5:16.

 

[SalomeBintullah]

Think about this: Christendom presents our Lord Jesus Christ either as a corpse hanging on the cross or as a helpless baby. The apostle to the Gentiles [Paul] presents Him as the risen, exalted Lord Jesus Christ and tells us that we “no longer know Him after the flesh” 2 Corinthians 5:16.

We have images of Jesus as the risen, exalted Lord as well. In the cathedral in the city where I attend college, there’s at least one huge stained-glass window that depicts Jesus triumphant.

 

[The_Preacher]

Things that made me think in this thread…

1. Someone said “Many Protestant denominations believe that Jesus is real present under the wine and bread.” Episcopalians, their Anglican cousins and some Lutherans may believe this. Baptists certainly do not. Nor do Nazarenes, Pentecostals, Methodists, Presbyterians, Disciples of Christ or those from either the Congregational North or Southern branch of the Church of Christ. It is in memory of Him. it is NOT Him.
2. Having been raised and spent beaucoups time in several different protestant mainstream faiths, I can tell you that crucifixes are generally not seen. They feel they worship a risen Christ so the cross is empty. In many protestant churches you will not see a cross at all. But you may see a print of Jesus knocking at the door.
3. Protestants, Jews, and Muslims cannot understand how we Catholics can have statues that we kneel and pray before and not worship them. They do not understand “hyperdulia” the concept of veneration which we give Our Blessed Mother, “Latria” which we offer only to God, or “dulia” which we have for the rest of the saints. If they did/could understand it, they could probably wade the Tiber without any other problem.
4. Graven images from the commandments to my understanding are man created images which are worshipped as if they had life and were actually deities.
   So, if you are not Catholic, and you happen into a protestant church and see the picture of Jesus knocking, believe it or not, it really is just a piece of art that inspires the soul to think about God.
   And most all the Catholics I have met do not believe Mary is a little plaster statue on a home oratory. Or that the crucifix over their bed/door/family altar or shrine is really Jesus still being crucified.

Re. pt. #1: Ask a Lutheran theologian and they will insist that Lutherans are not protistants, at least an historical theologian will. The Articals of Concord were written to make this case to the German Princes. Protistants for the most part, under the sway of “Rationalism” see the comand of our Lord as symbolic only. Catholics hold to the ancient understanding that a sacrement is a physical thing that does exactly what it says it does. Baptism litterally drowns the kid and he or she is reborn a new persone. The consecrated host is litterally changed into the body and blood of Christ, retaining only the “accidents” (the precivable and hence scientifically measurable attributes of form, texture, taste etc). This is “transubstation”. Lutherans believe that as Christ was both God and man at once, the elements are at once fully the body and blood of Christ and fully bred and wine. This is “consubstantion.” Both hold the real presence. Trying to say what Anglicas believe is a real challange as “inclusiveness” was the mandate of Henry the Eighth. His church is supposed to accept any “Christian” understanding. Hence “High Church” Anglicans who are almost Catholic and “Low Church” Anglicans. High Church holding to consubsteation and Low Church which take the protistant symbolic stance. The highest of the High is Anglo-Catholicism as promlogated by John Henry Newman. He later not only swam the Tiber but died as John Cardinal Newman. In my pilgramage I started approved for call and ordination as an ELCA pastor with an ELCA Mdiv. Unfortunately I did the unmentionable and actually read theology and history. I took my STM as an Anglo-Catholic, but we were expurged from ECUSA. I was ordained in the irregular Brazilian Succession, very much Catholic, and, as Rome has ruled my orders valid am trying to find my place in the Roman Catholic Church.Transubsteation and Consubstantion I can understand. Canterbury :whacky:

 

[ufamtobie]

Another scholarly question, if we refer to the 10 commandments in Exodus, we find part of the translation as…

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,"

Hi Oneheartway,

(Number 6-9) Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. 7 Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed./

Oneheartway, the above bible verse: Is God the Father contradicting himself by having Moses make a Brazen Serpent on a pole? …No!

Many who don’t understand will think that God is contradicting himself about idol worship here becasue God told Moses that the people must look upon a “Brazen Serpent” in order to be healed and not die, again many who don’t understand will think this is idol worshipping.

Many of our protestant brothers and sisters in christ don’t understand, and they believe that the Catholic Church worships pictures or statues of the Blessed Mother or the Saints, we don’t, just as the Isrealites who looked upon the Brazen Serpent did not worship it, when they looked at it for healing, well, niether do we Catholics worship when we look upon a picture or statue of the Blessed Mother or any Saint. Amen

God Bless

Ufamtobie

 

[slyboots]

Re. pt. #1: Ask a Lutheran theologian and they will insist that Lutherans are not protistants, at least an historical theologian will. The Articals of Concord were written to make this case to the German Princes. Protistants for the most part, under the sway of “Rationalism” see the comand of our Lord as symbolic only. Catholics hold to the ancient understanding that a sacrement is a physical thing that does exactly what it says it does. Baptism litterally drowns the kid and he or she is reborn a new persone. The consecrated host is litterally changed into the body and blood of Christ, retaining only the “accidents” (the precivable and hence scientifically measurable attributes of form, texture, taste etc). This is “transubstation”. Lutherans believe that as Christ was both God and man at once, the elements are at once fully the body and blood of Christ and fully bred and wine. This is “consubstantion.” Both hold the real presence. Trying to say what Anglicas believe is a real challange as “inclusiveness” was the mandate of Henry the Eighth. His church is supposed to accept any “Christian” understanding. Hence “High Church” Anglicans who are almost Catholic and “Low Church” Anglicans. High Church holding to consubsteation and Low Church which take the protistant symbolic stance. The highest of the High is Anglo-Catholicism as promlogated by John Henry Newman. He later not only swam the Tiber but died as John Cardinal Newman. In my pilgramage I started approved for call and ordination as an ELCA pastor with an ELCA Mdiv. Unfortunately I did the unmentionable and actually read theology and history. I took my STM as an Anglo-Catholic, but we were expurged from ECUSA. I was ordained in the irregular Brazilian Succession, very much Catholic, and, as Rome has ruled my orders valid am trying to find my place in the Roman Catholic Church.Transubsteation and Consubstantion I can understand. Canterbury :whacky:

Our family was ECUSA for 20 years. . My husband’s family was ECUSA. My husband was “cradle”. I was buyer and managed a Dioscesan bookstore which had clients all over the US.
We left as a group in about 1994. My husband, our grown children and myself became Catholic quietly so as not to disrupt the others in our family. My MIL and FIL became Anglican sect/schism. My BIL and SIL in Texas became Catholic at the same time without telling anyone as they thought it would be upsetting to the rest of us. We have laughed over that many times. we all left but didn’t want to upset the rest by our actions.
I was quoting someone else about who believed in the eucharist.
The 8 years I worked in the ECUSA bookstore were spent finding out about Catholicism.

 

[The_Preacher]

Our family was ECUSA for 20 years. . My husband’s family was ECUSA. My husband was “cradle”. I was buyer and managed a Dioscesan bookstore which had clients all over the US.
We left as a group in about 1994. My husband, our grown children and myself became Catholic quietly so as not to disrupt the others in our family. My MIL and FIL became Anglican sect/schism. My BIL and SIL in Texas became Catholic at the same time without telling anyone as they thought it would be upsetting to the rest of us. We have laughed over that many times. we all left but didn’t want to upset the rest by our actions.
I was quoting someone else about who believed in the eucharist.
The 8 years I worked in the ECUSA bookstore were spent finding out about Catholicism.

Please: No offence intended.:blushing: I’m an occasional guest lecturer on Luther, whome I dearly love at a local University and look forward to shareing a beer with at the feast of the Lamb. He was driven by his faith, which I can’t say of all the reformers. I understand his reasoning, I just come to a different conclusion, which I suspect he would appreciate. I also understand not wishing to upset family: My brother disowned me when I became Catholic.uch:

 

[informed]

The fact is I do not know what is being taught today in Catholic schools, but I do know first hand what was taught to me throughout Catholic elementary and high schools. We prayed ‘to’ the statues, asked for intercession from the saints, wore relics (which I do know now were not actually from the saints or cross of Jesus. But as a child you do believe what you are told by nuns). Why even pray the Hail Mary when Jesus is our intercessor.

It certainly has no connection to viewing a nativity scene, as I would not pray to the statues there.

I am sorry to have inflamed some of you with the truth.

 

[rtconstant]

The fact is I do not know what is being taught today in Catholic schools, but I do know first hand what was taught to me throughout Catholic elementary and high schools. We prayed ‘to’ the statues, asked for intercession from the saints, wore relics (which I do know now were not actually from the saints or cross of Jesus. But as a child you do believe what you are told by nuns). Why even pray the Hail Mary when Jesus is our intercessor.

It certainly has no connection to viewing a nativity scene, as I would not pray to the statues there.

I am sorry to have inflamed some of you with the truth.

No one’s inflamed we just know that this is not what you were taught. That leaves us with two choices you either weren’t educated as a Catholic or you weren’t paying attention. Spouting this sort of non-sense may work during a testimonial on Sunday evenings at your local baptist church, but it won’t fly here. We actually are Catholics so we know what the Church teaches.

As to the Hail Mary, I don’t know why do you ask anyone to pray for you? Answer that and then you will have answered your own question.

 

[wmscott]

The fact is I do not know what is being taught today in Catholic schools, but I do know first hand what was taught to me throughout Catholic elementary and high schools. We prayed ‘to’ the statues, asked for intercession from the saints, wore relics (which I do know now were not actually from the saints or cross of Jesus. But as a child you do believe what you are told by nuns). Why even pray the Hail Mary when Jesus is our intercessor.

It certainly has no connection to viewing a nativity scene, as I would not pray to the statues there.

I am sorry to have inflamed some of you with the truth.

Dear Misinformed, I feel that you are not sorry for putting out there what you “perceive” to be the truth. Again, as I have stated, I know where you are coming from because I have been there and know the sources of the falsehoods from which you have been “inflamed” with. I provided you with a source of reference to better educate yourself, rather than you coming here and parroting anti-Catholic statements.

I suggest that you start here. catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

 

[JonNC]

=The Preacher;5339086] Lutherans believe that as Christ was both God and man at once, the elements are at once fully the body and blood of Christ and fully bred and wine. This is "consubstantion." Both hold the real presence.

Please: No offence intended.:blushing: I’m an occasional guest lecturer on Luther, whome I dearly love at a local University and look forward to shareing a beer with at the feast of the Lamb. He was driven by his faith, which I can’t say of all the reformers. I understand his reasoning, I just come to a different conclusion, which I suspect he would appreciate. I also understand not wishing to upset family: My brother disowned me when I became Catholic.uch:

As a lecturer on Luther, you are aware that neither Luther, nor any Lutheran worth his salt, would use the term consubstantiation to describe the Eucharist. The term used by Luther was sacramental union. That said, believe the best description of the mystery is by Melanchton in the Apology to the Augsburg Confession:

we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament.

BTW, order a pint for me.

Jon

 

[peary2]

I do not object to nativity scenes, because people do not pray to them, or ask them for favors etc.

While educated in Catholic schools we were taught to pray to the statues in our Church of Mary, Jesus, Joseph and various saints and ask for intercession or answers to our prayer requests. Church members would slip money into an offering box and light candles to these statues, and venerate them. Relics of saints were worn for protection and reverence. This is idol worship, plain and simple.

**Anyone who has been educated in a Catholic school knows that what you have posted is false. And the reasons it is false:

1. No Catholic has EVER been taught to pray to statues. This goes against the teaching of the Church, and always HAS been against the teaching of the Church. I don’t know what ‘catholic’ school or church you went to, but it certainly wasn’t ‘Catholic.’
2. We pray for the intercession of the saints in our growth in holiness and sanctity because they are part of the Communion of Saints who we acknowledge every time the Nicene and Apostles creeds are recited. The saints are part of the Body of Christ and, as such, are with Christ who extends His mercy and love to us at all times. The New Testament makes very clear in its teaching that we are to pray for one another. Death does not negate this teaching.
3. Relics of saints are sacramentals. Through these, God wishes us to remind ourselves of His deep love and the bond we all share with the entire Body of Christ, both seen and unseen. Catholics do not ‘pray’ to relics. Do some ‘wear’ relics for protection? Perhaps. Does this mean that they will be ‘protected’ by a particular saint? Maybe, but this protection is due to the grace of God allowing it.
4. The lighting of candles for intentions is biblical and has also been an integral part of the Church since the days when it was persecuted and had to exist in the catacombs, with or without an offering.**

 

[ufamtobie]

I do not object to nativity scenes, because people do not pray to them, or ask them for favors etc.

While educated in Catholic schools we were taught to pray to the statues in our Church of Mary, Jesus, Joseph and various saints and ask for intercession or answers to our prayer requests. Church members would slip money into an offering box and light candles to these statues, and venerate them. Relics of saints were worn for protection and reverence. This is idol worship, plain and simple.

Hi Informed,

Or should I say Hi “Misinformed” about the Catholic Church.

(Number 6-9) Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. 7 Upon which they came to Moses, and said: We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

Informed, Lets go step by step with the above bible verse: Ok the Isrealites looked upon Moses for intercession. Here Moses was only a Man, now were these Isrealites Idolizing Moses while they were seeking His intercession? NO!

My point is any thing can be an idol a STATUE or a MAN like Moses, but again, the Isrealites were not Idolizing Moses, period. Just as the Catholic Church when we ask for intercession from a Man or a Statue and of course knowing that the statue is not a real person but a symbol of that person/saint who is alive an in heaven and that can intercede for us.

Now Step 2. in the above bible verse: Is God the Father contradicting himself by having Moses make a Brazen Serpent on a pole? …No! No! No God The Father is not contradicting himself!

Many like yourself who don’t understand will think that God is contradicting himself about idol worship here becasue God told Moses that the must erect a statue of a 'BRAZEN SERPENT" that the Isrealites must look upon that “Brazen Serpent” in order to be healed and not die, again many who don’t understand will think this is idol worshiping.

Informed, this only goes to show you that you are MISINFORMED and you don’t understand, and you believe that the Catholic Church worships pictures or statues of the Blessed Mother or the Saints, we don’t!

Just as the Isrealites who looked upon the Brazen Serpent did not worship it, when they looked at it for healing, well, niether do we Catholics worship when we look upon a picture or statue of the Blessed Mother or any Saint. Amen There is only one whom the Catholic Church worships and that is the Most Holy Blessed Trinity God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Amen

However many like yourself must, must find faults in their own minds and only in their minds with the Catholic Church in order to justify themselves for not belonging to the Catholic Church that Jesus Christ founded over 2000 years ago, Simply put, you are trying to find faults with Jesus and His Church to no avail.

God Bless

Ufamtobie