Graven Images

[The_Preacher]

"

I think you are probably right today. Would you agree that in the past - middle ages, for example - that absolute ignorance may have contributed to a crossing of the line?"

:twocents: My I humbly add an observation? I’ve been studying the social anthropology (for want of a better term) of the Bible and it’s understanding professionally for twenty years. My approch is to try to understand the people and societies that encountered God and struggled to pass on what could hardly be grasped by human understanding (for now we see as through a glass, but then face to face; and I guarentee you that the mirrors available when that writer lived were not what wh think of now). I wonder about the implications of the term “ignorance,” and in particular “absolute ignorance.” I would hardly characterize any who have written, rewritten, inturpreted or reinturpreted the scriptures, down to this day as totally ignorant. We today (given the proliferation of printing and modern electronic databases) are used to having an incredable access to material. It was not always so. Untill the last hundered or so years the records and writings of the church have been scattered throughout “the world” and not universally available. I would not characterize those eho have gone before us as “ignorant,” at least not willingly so. They knew very well and studied intently that portion of the repository of faith entrusted to their reagon. Such was the case with Luther who was an extremely faith driven man, and to an extent incredable to us today, so was Rome. I would not dismiss the bulk of our fathers or mothers in the faith as “ignorant,” at least contemptiously, though there were and are certainly many such who cannot accept that true faith demands an open mind. I’m so orthadox (lower case o) that it would make Augustine’s teath itch, but I am not an idealog with an identity constitionally opposed to correction through greater understanding of the ancient Church. That’s why I left the modern Lutheran Church and swam the Tiber. I believe that I’ve learned great empathy with Luther and that he would agree with me.

“Well, if you removed it, then so did we Lutherans. And you know how touchy we are about being accused of removing stuff. ”

I really don’t think that ether removed anything. The challange is to put aside recent prideful tradition and to combine what we each were entrusted with. The unfortunate current solution is only what, half a malinium old give or take? That’s only yesterday.

And btw, being of German ancestry, all I have to say about your dialogue about the British is

Of couorse, there is the English problem. :hypno: I’m :shamrock2: patralinially by the way. There doesn’t seem to be an icon for my mother’s Lenni Lennapi heratage.

 

[QuickCat]

There were several hundred buses in the parking lot. There was wall to wall people and they were all worshiping this statue. It was obvious that none of them knew that they shouldn’t be worshippng this statue. It was heartbreaking to watch this idolatry. I recently looked up the Catholic catechism and was quite surprised to note that the 2nd commandment has been removed and the 10th is split into two to make ten. Sad!

 

[JonNC]

I think I really phrased things badly. I was speaking of the peasants who were ignorant, and I didn’t mean the term in a perojative or judgemental way. Apologies.

BTW, which Lutheran synod were you of? I take it ELCA, since you mentioned Philadelphia Sem.

I really don’t think that ether removed anything. The challange is to put aside recent prideful tradition and to combine what we each were entrusted with. The unfortunate current solution is only what, half a malinium old give or take? That’s only yesterday.

I completely agree.

Jon

 

[John_Hiner]

There were several hundred buses in the parking lot. There was wall to wall people and they were all worshiping this statue. It was obvious that none of them knew that they shouldn’t be worshippng this statue. It was heartbreaking to watch this idolatry. I recently looked up the Catholic catechism and was quite surprised to note that the 2nd commandment has been removed and the 10th is split into two to make ten. Sad!

Laudetur Iesus Christus.

Dear “QuickCat:”

Please respond to my previous question; what is it that makes a gesture “worship” in the sense that you are concerned about? How does one distinguish kissing the toes of a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary and kissing the toes of the body of one’s child?

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[JonNC]

=QuickCat;5348891]There were several hundred buses in the parking lot. There was wall to wall people and they were all worshiping this statue. It was obvious that none of them knew that they shouldn’t be worshippng this statue. It was heartbreaking to watch this idolatry.

You have made a judgement here, about what these people were doing. Did you walk up to any and ask if they were worshipping the statue? Or did you assume they were, based on your own formulation of what worship entails.

I recently looked up the Catholic catechism and was quite surprised to note that the 2nd commandment has been removed and the 10th is split into two to make ten. Sad!

Since scripture doesn’t number the commandments in a specific sense, it is incorrect to say that the numbering Catholics and Lutherans use removes the 2nd commandment. The grouping we use is simply different than what some other faith groups use. IOW, we include “You shall not make for yourself an idol…” in the 1st Commandment. We don’t eliminate or remove it.

Jon

 

[slyboots]

There were several hundred buses in the parking lot. There was wall to wall people and they were all worshiping this statue. It was obvious that none of them knew that they shouldn’t be worshippng this statue. It was heartbreaking to watch this idolatry. I recently looked up the Catholic catechism and was quite surprised to note that the 2nd commandment has been removed and the 10th is split into two to make ten. Sad!

Where is your proof they were worshipping?
And can you not read? This is the first commandment as we have it in our catechism which is the plain teaching of the Catholic CHurch.
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

 

[SalomeBintullah]

There were several hundred buses in the parking lot. There was wall to wall people and they were all worshiping this statue. It was obvious that none of them knew that they shouldn’t be worshippng this statue. It was heartbreaking to watch this idolatry. I recently looked up the Catholic catechism and was quite surprised to note that the 2nd commandment has been removed and the 10th is split into two to make ten. Sad!

QuickCat, just because it looked like worship to you doesn’t mean that it actually was. For example, during Good Friday services we have a cross or crucifix that we venerate and go up to kiss. Was I worshiping this cross when I went up and kissed it? No, I was not, although I can see how it would look like that to some people. As for the alleged mutilation of the Ten Commandments, I strongly suggest that you read this article before taking that thought any further.

 

[The_Preacher]

You have made a judgement here, about what these people were doing. Did you walk up to any and ask if they were worshipping the statue? Or did you assume they were, based on your own formulation of what worship entails.

Since scripture doesn’t number the commandments in a specific sense, it is incorrect to say that the numbering Catholics and Lutherans use removes the 2nd commandment. The grouping we use is simply different than what some other faith groups use. IOW, we include “You shall not make for yourself an idol…” in the 1st Commandment. We don’t eliminate or remove it.

Jon

Ok: Before this goes any further I think there is a lack of knowledge about the contents of the Bible here. :tsktsk: I’ve been professionally teaching it for twenty years so lets look at the Biblical facts. Which comandments are you looking at as the ten comandments? Bear in mind that there are minor vareations in verse numbering between the Jerome and King James so you may have to look a few verses forwward or back according to the translation you are using. Ex 19:23 ff forbids “graven images”, as does Deut 5:6 ff. The renditions considered the Septuigent specifically Ex 34 ff and Deut 10:4 ff
forbid the making of “molten gods”. The "Ethical Ten Comandments are in Ex 20 2-17 and in Deut, both stressing the supremicy of God. Ex 34:11-27 by the way is generally considered the ritual Dialog. They all are inerrent schripture but not all make mention of “graven Images”! I hapen to be Catholic, but Luther in his Large Catechism hit the nail on the head when he admonished the bishops to not be confused by the many renditions but choose one to be commonly learned and stick to it for the sake of the people, which the Magesterium of the Church has. The “graven image” issue is a red herring, a cultural-political thing, the “Big Enders” against the “Little Enders,” and if you don’t know what I mean, read “Guliver’s Travels.” By the way: The Eastern Orthodox Churches allow images of Jesus, but not of the Father, which makes reasonable sence to me. The Amish and Musalems forbid any pictures at all, which makes passports and driver’s lisences problimatic. At any rate, learn the full facts before you humeleate us all with a public cat fight.:slapfight:

 

[JonNC]

Ok: Before this goes any further I think there is a lack of knowledge about the contents of the Bible here. :tsktsk: I’ve been professionally teaching it for twenty years so lets look at the Biblical facts. Which comandments are you looking at as the ten comandments? Bear in mind that there are minor vareations in verse numbering between the Jerome and King James so you may have to look a few verses forwward or back according to the translation you are using. Ex 19:23 ff forbids “graven images”, as does Deut 5:6 ff. The renditions considered the Septuigent specifically Ex 34 ff and Deut 10:4 ff
forbid the making of “molten gods”. The "Ethical Ten Comandments are in Ex 20 2-17 and in Deut, both stressing the supremicy of God. Ex 34:11-27 by the way is generally considered the ritual Dialog. They all are inerrent schripture but not all make mention of “graven Images”! I hapen to be Catholic, but Luther in his Large Catechism hit the nail on the head when he admonished the bishops to not be confused by the many renditions but choose one to be commonly learned and stick to it for the sake of the people, which the Magesterium of the Church has. The “graven image” issue is a red herring, a cultural-political thing, the “Big Enders” against the “Little Enders,” and if you don’t know what I mean, read “Guliver’s Travels.” By the way: The Eastern Orthodox Churches allow images of Jesus, but not of the Father, which makes reasonable sence to me. The Amish and Musalems forbid any pictures at all, which makes passports and driver’s lisences problimatic. At any rate, learn the full facts before you humeleate us all with a public cat fight.:slapfight:

I don’t disagree with anything you say here.
Please be aware, I never criticized anyone’s practice in the numbering of the commandments. The charge was made that Catholics, and by extension Lutherans, had “removed” the 2nd commandment. The Jews, Orthodox, and many others number what is commonly called The Ten Commandments differently, which is fine, and I’m not saying they are wrong. It, of course, would be helpful if we all did it the same.
In addition, I made no charge against Quickcat other than to say that he/she had made a judgement about the folks at that statue. I simply asked if he/she asked those people if they were worshipping the statue, or if it was based on a personal formulation of what worship is.
Not sure why you chose my post for chastisement.

Jon

 

[The_Preacher]

I don’t disagree with anything you say here.
Please be aware, I never criticized anyone’s practice in the numbering of the commandments. The charge was made that Catholics, and by extension Lutherans, had “removed” the 2nd commandment. The Jews, Orthodox, and many others number what is commonly called The Ten Commandments differently, which is fine, and I’m not saying they are wrong. It, of course, would be helpful if we all did it the same.
In addition, I made no charge against Quickcat other than to say that he/she had made a judgement about the folks at that statue. I simply asked if he/she asked those people if they were worshipping the statue, or if it was based on a personal formulation of what worship is.
Not sure why you chose my post for chastisement.

Jon

Dear Jon,
I was a bit harsh. My issue is not with you. I’ve been teaching and preaching specifically bible for twenty years now and this is one of the issues inevetably commendeers the discussion, shoving the carriculum aside, and frankly, I confess that I’ve lost patience. I recognize how important it is for many people. There’s a fundimental identity issue involved, which invariably buryies faithful understanding of the bible itself. By identity issue I mean that many people base their self identity upon holding immutable the belieefs their forebears held. To challange that is to challange the identity of those who rely upon it for their own security. Litteral inturpretation, creationism, and the canon of scripture are all examples of such identity issues to which this belongs. My own brother and the rest of my family disowned me completely when I departed from the family’s established received belieefs. So I’m well aware and respectful of the situation. Identity belieefs serve to differentiate a group, or perhaps I should say tribe, and we all have a primal need to belong to a tribe. The kosher laws are an example of this, defining what it is to be a Jew, incidently proclaiming the supereority of the tribe over all others. But we are supposed to be of the tribe of the Christ. These arguements, which temd to simply ignore or shout down historic, litterary or socieoanthroprologic study devide that tribe scandolously, and frankly so so for selfish reasons. My calling is to confuse the issues by introducing the documentable facts and I’m frequently denounced as the antichrist for doing so. I’m sorry that after twenty years I’ve become a bit weary and less sencitive to the pastoral aspects of my calling. I appologize if I was so in this case and gave offence.
Obediently yours in Christ,
John Joseph

 

[Canto]

There were several hundred buses in the parking lot. There was wall to wall people and they were all worshiping this statue. It was obvious that none of them knew that they shouldn’t be worshippng this statue. It was heartbreaking to watch this idolatry. I recently looked up the Catholic catechism and was quite surprised to note that the 2nd commandment has been removed and the 10th is split into two to make ten. Sad!

Were they worshiping a statue or was that merely your interpretation of their actions? Did you ask them what they were doing or just assume?

The Church did not remove one of the commandmants. She follows the same formula as Lutherans and Jews. The Bible does not tell us how to divide the statements.

found this in my files The translation is more accurately 10 words, with their being essentially 14 actually statements. These statements we condensed by St. Augustine into 10 points to help the faithful remember them. Some group Exodus 20:16-17 together and split Exodus 20:2-4. Traditionally Exodus 20:16-17 were separated as while they relate, they are distinct by themselves. Exodus 2-4 are grouped together traditionally as polytheism and idolatry have always been linked. If one was to worshiped another god(s), it was often the worship of an image for example the worship of a statue as a God.

Nothing wrong with statues, even God commanded they be made. Moses made a serpent for example. It was only removed once people started worshiping it as a god.

 

[kalt]

There were several hundred buses in the parking lot. There was wall to wall people and they were all worshiping this statue. It was obvious that none of them knew that they shouldn’t be worshippng this statue. It was heartbreaking to watch this idolatry. I recently looked up the Catholic catechism and was quite surprised to note that the 2nd commandment has been removed and the 10th is split into two to make ten. Sad!

You’re here, obviously, to voice your prejudice against Catholicism. Your ignorance of the Church and her members is appalling, and merely makes your prejudice that much more obvious.

Why do you need to air this prejudice? Why, especially do you need to air this in front of the people you are prejudiced against?

 

[peary]

Actually this is not really true. Many Protestant denominations believe that Jesus is real present under the wine and bread. What they do not accept is the artificial construct of defining how it happens. Catholicism has decided to speculate on this event. Some Protestants, those that believe in the real presence, tend to allow the “how” of this remain mystery, unknowable by humans.

So in fact I don’t imagine there is necessarily an objection to Eucharistic adornation. We keep the light on at all times too!

Actually, whether or not Protestant denominations believe in the Real Presence in their own communion services is invalid and irrelevent. Because they have rejected the Church and the priesthood, they reject the consecration. Just because they say it is does not make it so. Jesus may somehow be present to them in a spiritual way (“Where two or more are gathered…”) but He is not present body, blood, soul, and divinity as He is in the Eucharist.

 

[bobzills]

Actually, whether or not Protestant denominations believe in the Real Presence in their own communion services is invalid and irrelevent. Because they have rejected the Church and the priesthood, they reject the consecration. Just because they say it is does not make it so. Jesus may somehow be present to them in a spiritual way (“Where two or more are gathered…”) but He is not present body, blood, soul, and divinity as He is in the Eucharist.

Would that be true of all Protestants? For example, what about the Anglican priests who have a line of ordination through an Old Catholic Bishop?

 

[bobzills]

There were several hundred buses in the parking lot. There was wall to wall people and they were all worshiping this statue. It was obvious that none of them knew that they shouldn’t be worshippng this statue. It was heartbreaking to watch this idolatry. I recently looked up the Catholic catechism and was quite surprised to note that the 2nd commandment has been removed and the 10th is split into two to make ten. Sad!

Catholics do give honor and praise to the saints and do revere the images and statues of the saints. Also, Catholics call on the Holy Mother of God to intercede for us, since She is very close to God, having borne and raised His Son. Catholics also kneel and pray before the Crucifix. From the Catholic point of view, this does not qualify as idolatry, since it is not viewed as the worship which is due only to Almighty God.

 

[placido]

I was in a small village in England several years ago. There is a very large statue of Mary situated between a Catholic and an Anglican church. The “pilgrims” were coming by the busloads to “venerate” this bronze likeness of Mary. They were praying to it; kneeling before it; kissing the feet; rubbing it; and bowing to it.

Firstly, this small no-name village only exists in someone’s mind.

Any unbiased observer would have said that they were worshipping it.

Secondly, you are not an unbiased observer.

I recently looked up the Catholic catechism and was quite surprised to note that the 2nd commandment has been removed and the 10th is split into two to make ten. Sad!

It is sad indeed to see you repeating the same tired, lame and long discredited anti-Catholic accusations here. I suggest you look up the 10 Commandments in a Catholic Bible. You would be surprised indeed to note that the 2nd commandment has not been removed and the 10th was not “split into two to make ten”. No big deal after all.

placido

 

[Robert_in_SD]

There were several hundred buses in the parking lot. There was wall to wall people and they were all worshiping this statue. It was obvious that none of them knew that they shouldn’t be worshippng this statue. It was heartbreaking to watch this idolatry. I recently looked up the Catholic catechism and was quite surprised to note that the 2nd commandment has been removed and the 10th is split into two to make ten. Sad!

I know when to stop talking. It’s clear you’re not listening.

Peace,
Robert

 

[JonNC]

Dear Jon,
I was a bit harsh. My issue is not with you. I’ve been teaching and preaching specifically bible for twenty years now and this is one of the issues inevetably commendeers the discussion, shoving the carriculum aside, and frankly, I confess that I’ve lost patience. I recognize how important it is for many people. There’s a fundimental identity issue involved, which invariably buryies faithful understanding of the bible itself. By identity issue I mean that many people base their self identity upon holding immutable the belieefs their forebears held. To challange that is to challange the identity of those who rely upon it for their own security. Litteral inturpretation, creationism, and the canon of scripture are all examples of such identity issues to which this belongs. My own brother and the rest of my family disowned me completely when I departed from the family’s established received belieefs. So I’m well aware and respectful of the situation. Identity belieefs serve to differentiate a group, or perhaps I should say tribe, and we all have a primal need to belong to a tribe. The kosher laws are an example of this, defining what it is to be a Jew, incidently proclaiming the supereority of the tribe over all others. But we are supposed to be of the tribe of the Christ. These arguements, which temd to simply ignore or shout down historic, litterary or socieoanthroprologic study devide that tribe scandolously, and frankly so so for selfish reasons. My calling is to confuse the issues by introducing the documentable facts and I’m frequently denounced as the antichrist for doing so. I’m sorry that after twenty years I’ve become a bit weary and less sencitive to the pastoral aspects of my calling. I appologize if I was so in this case and gave offence.
Obediently yours in Christ,
John Joseph

John,
Apolgy accepted, though none was needed. I wasn’t offended, just a bit surprised by your post, as I thought my response to QuickCat was measured and not harsh itself. I welcome your knowledge and insight here, particularly as your faith history includes 2 traditions.

Jon

 

[QuickCat]

Kalt: No prejudice! Just telling it like I saw it. Sorry you don’t like my observations, but I know what I saw and those poor folks were worshipping that statue. I understand that the Catholic Church does not approve of this type of worship. It has been my general experience with friends who are faithful Catholics that their Biblical knowledge is rather sparse. The same can be said for many Protestants. If you would like to discuss the Biblical concept of the Ten Commandments please contact me at:

jacksdon@gmail.com

 

[bobzills]

Kalt: No prejudice! Just telling it like I saw it. Sorry you don’t like my observations, but I know what I saw and those poor folks were worshipping that statue. I understand that the Catholic Church does not approve of this type of worship. It has been my general experience with friends who are faithful Catholics that their Biblical knowledge is rather sparse. The same can be said for many Protestants. If you would like to discuss the Biblical concept of the Ten Commandments please contact me at:

jacksdon@gmail.com

Why not discuss it here so we can all contribute?