Great devotion to Mary.

[Gwaz4Christ]

With all due respect those are the most vague and weak arguments I have ever seen. John 2:7??? The Apostles told people to do things and obey Christ in His commandments does that make them Our Blessed fathers??? She understood that Christ was the Messiah just as did all the Apostles. Your stretching really hard for something that is not there. The other ones are way too far out there and you are strecthing beyond. Your still not answering my claims. I ask you to show me in the in the scriptures where Christ Himself and the Apostles cororlate and specifically talk about, esteem and confirm the exact exoneration that Rome bestows upon her. The scripture you used has really nothing to do with mary being Queen of heaven, the mediatrix neccessary for intercession and grace and all the other things claimed by Rome. I keep asking all the people on this site to prove this and all I get our verses that really have nothing to do mary and can be easily explained other wise.

 

[JustaServant]

With all due respect those are the most vague and weak arguments I have ever seen. John 2:7??? The Apostles told people to do things and obey Christ in His commandments does that make them Our Blessed fathers??? She understood that Christ was the Messiah just as did all the Apostles. Your stretching really hard for something that is not there. The other ones are way too far out there and you are strecthing beyond. Your still not answering my claims. I ask you to show me in the in the scriptures where Christ Himself and the Apostles cororlate and specifically talk about, esteem and confirm the exact exoneration that Rome bestows upon her. The scripture you used has really nothing to do with mary being Queen of heaven, the mediatrix neccessary for intercession and grace and all the other things claimed by Rome. I keep asking all the people on this site to prove this and all I get our verses that really have nothing to do mary and can be easily explained other wise.

That’s because your view of the Bible is defective. It’s illogical for a person to set parameters of discussion, with a point of view unique to himself, and then stand on thier self-created throne announcing victory. You already have your mind made up based on your unique interpretation.
Besides, the verses are for UOT and any lurkers.

 

[Gwaz4Christ]

Not one of the verses you put forth corolates to her in any way. You are making this up. Now you use scripture. I will address as many verses as possible and give you the chear understanding of what they mean. However you seem to think they apply to Mary! Your still not answering the claims I made about showing me the corolation from Christ’s mouth and the Apostles teachings in specificity about the things that Rome claims of her. Your digging and trying so hard to connect those scriptures yet they in no way shape or form are even slightly insinuating mary. I believe Christ died for my sins alone and do not need her for my salvation. The scripture confirms this and is absolutley overwhelming. How do you get around, " There is only one mediator between the God and man and it is Christ Jesus." Answer this please!

 

[Gwaz4Christ]

That’s because your view of the Bible is defective. It’s illogical for a person to set parameters of discussion, with a point of view unique to himself, and then stand on thier self-created throne announcing victory. You already have your mind made up based on your unique interpretation.
Besides, the verses are for UOT and any lurkers.

And you really believe that Romes scriptural interpretations are right??? You say I conform to my own way of thinking?? Rome sold indulgences for money and you want me to belive in catholic biblical interpretations?? They teach purgatory which in no way is mentioned in scripture and arose 500 years later. Hebrews 10;14, 1 John1;1, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 John 1:9. Scripture says Christ sacrifice was once and for all. Rome did not let people read the Bible in English until after 1962! How can this be rigteous yet you claim Catholic interpretation is right! If I believe in Christ alone for my salvation will I be robbed of it because Rome says I need mary as well?? Because the catechism does make this claim. I will copy it and paste it. Salvation comes through Christ alone do you deny this??? Did mary die for my sins?? Does Daniel, Zechariah, and Isaiah when talking about and Prophesizing about Messiah Yeshua talk about a co-redeemer necessary for grace with Christ? No it does not. You guys really want a female co redemptress so bad you will go at almost amazing blasphemic lengths to accomplish this. It borders on complete insanity.

 

[JustaServant]

And you really believe that Romes scriptural interpretations are right??? You say I conform to my own way of thinking?? Rome sold indulgences for money and you want me to belive in catholic biblical interpretations?? They teach purgatory which in no way is mentioned in scripture and arose 500 years later. Hebrews 10;14, 1 John1;1, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 John 1:9. Scripture says Christ sacrifice was once and for all. Rome did not let people read the Bible in English until after 1962! How can this be rigteous yet you claim Catholic interpretation is right! If I believe in Christ alone for my salvation will I be robbed of it because Rome says I need mary as well?? Because the catechism does make this claim. I will copy it and paste it. Salvation comes through Christ alone do you deny this??? Did mary die for my sins?? Does Daniel, Zechariah, and Isaiah when talking about and Prophesizing about Messiah Yeshua talk about a co-redeemer necessary for grace with Christ? No it does not. You guys really want a female co redemptress so bad you will go at almost amazing blasphemic lengths to accomplish this. It borders on complete insanity.

One billion insane people? That’s gonna be a big rubber room.

 

[Ravemacneil]

…when no where in Scripture is mary esteemed to this level???

Forgive me if I mispeak as I am not yet Catholic.

I am astounded that you would, as a man, hold automatically to a position of your own determining and demand of God He give you a reason better than that He did so himself.

He inarguably and demonstrably esteemed her so Himself by the choosing of her.

I don’t even see the point in Scripture warring.

You wish to know where in Scripture Mary is esteemed “to this level”?

The part where you are told she’s the mother of Jesus.

That’s it. You don’t need any other Scriptural evidence than this.

Do you believe Jesus is God? Do you believe he existed before Mary? Then you must, without doubt, believe Christ chose this woman to mother Him.

He chose her to nurse Him, to bathe Him, to comfort and warm Him. He chose her to protect Him, to teach Him, to guide His first steps. He chose her to be the one to lay Him to sleep and wake Him in the morning, to come when He cries and kiss His forehead. And He chose her to let Him go and be free to do His will when the time came.

And here you sit, thinking there could possibly exist, to your mere human mind, a line of Scripture or argument greater than GOD HIMSELF choosing her to MOTHER Him.

Out of all time, all possibility, all who ever were and ever could be, He chose Mary.

That act - the choice itself - is bigger and more powerful proof than any inference you may think you read in Scripture.

No matter what you think, there is no place in Scripture - none at all - that denies that Our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son, chose to be born of Mary and be mothered by her.

The greatest love and devotions you could ever **possibly **give to Mary are but a fraction of an imitation of what God, through HIS ACT of choosing her, taught us to do by His most Holy example.

Peace of Christ†
RMN

 

[Ravemacneil]

I just want to add for clarification…

There cannot possibly be a greater definition of “esteemed” than to have God Himself choose you to mother Him.

If being a servant of God means, as it must, to align our thoughts and actions with the Lord as He has revealed them to us,

and if God gave to Mary the greatest possible esteem,

then we have to esteem Mary to the greatest extent possible.

To do otherwise is to not be in alignment with God’s revealed acts.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

God bless you Rave, out of all the complicated arguments, your simple statements are indeed the best statement of all.

 

[Gwaz4Christ]

I just want to add for clarification…

There cannot possibly be a greater definition of “esteemed” than to have God Himself choose you to mother Him.

If being a servant of God means, as it must, to align our thoughts and actions with the Lord as He has revealed them to us,

and if God gave to Mary the greatest possible esteem,

then we have to esteem Mary to the greatest extent possible.

To do otherwise is to not be in alignment with God’s revealed acts.

This is where the problem lies. You do not have any regard for scripture. So you do not care what came out of the mouth of Christ. You do not care what was written in the New Testemant by the Apostles. You only care what Rome decrees and your prior comments show no regard for the truths written in scripture. You all go to incredible ,extreme lengths to proclaim mary as a queen or mediatrix who can give grace which only God has the power to do. It’s similiar to what Muslims proclaim about the Great Comforter in the Bible being Muhhamad when it is clearly talking about the Holy Spirit of God at the Pentacost. This is why you guys are brainwashed. Either you except the Bible as the inspired word of God and the written testimonies of Christs life, ministry ,death and Ressurection or not.(1 John 5:13-15). You can’t pick and choose what you want to be true and the way you want it to apply. That is insanity. You actually made the comment that we do not need scripture to decipher what we should understand when it comes to articles of faith. I will continue to put faith in Christ alone as My Lord and Savior without Mary as my mediatrix, queen, co-redeemer and intercessor. I will continue to absorb God’s word and try my best to live by the commands of Christ and the testimonies of the Apostles in the 4 Gospels and I know my salvation is garenteed through faith in Him alone. Christ died for my sins. Jesus is the Messiah. He is our Redeemer. Christ alone took the sins of the world upon Himself .(Isaiah 53)" (He) was crushed for our iniquities. (He) was peirced through for our transgressions. And by (His) scourging we are healed. Yet (He Himself )bore the sins of many. And (interceded) for the transgressors.(no other intercessor but Messiah Yeshua). There is no mention of anyone else when it came to the Old Testament prophecies about Messiah. It would have been strictly enforced in the pre-Christ Jewish culture when describing Messianic prophecy and it would have been written about and outlined in detail by Paul, Peter and detailed in the Gospels. If you think my salvation will be robbed because I don’t pray to or through Mary or the saints for my communing with God then you are all mislead greatly. Intercession involves all believers in Christ which the Bible classifies as “saints”(1 Corinthians 1: 1-3,Col1:2-3), praying with and for eachother to God directly when giving glory to Christ through prayer. The Bible strictly says we are not to pray to or for the dead because after the victory over sin and at Calvalry’s cross by Jesus it was finished! By saying purgatory exists and praying to the dead you are saying the Christs sacrifice was not sufficient and that we need to complete His scacrifice by praying for the dead!! That is blasphemous!!! Christ bore all humanity’s sin once and for all as written in scripture. Sin was defeated at calvary and death was destroyed at His Ressurection. We only need to be sorry in our hearts sincerly when confessing sin and directing those prayers to God Himself. When another believer hears that confession of sin directly to the Lord than another believer will acknowledge that thier sins are forgiven but that acknowledger is not exercising any divine power on God’s behalf, he is just giving God His due prasie in His divine power to absolve sin. You claim scripture is not needed but am I wrong when applying these Holy words inspired by God for backing up what I am proclaiming. Is the scripture wrong ??? In 1984 Pope John Paul II had all religious leaders of all faiths from around the entire world at the vatican. He proclaimed that All these leaders were praying to the same God as Christians of all denominations do on the steps outside the vatican. If Christ is way, the truth and the light to salvation and John 3:16 clearly states." For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." How could the pope proclaim that they were all praying to the same God if Christ is the “TRUTH” & “THE WAY?” Religious tolerance is one thing, but compromising your belief in the Truth that is Jesus is another! I thought popes were infallible in matters in faith??? There is absolutley no other way to kindly spin this. It’s clear and concise , yet you say scripture is not needed and not the only authority but you put your trust and faith in Rome, it’s canons, decrees ,catechisms and papal authority which just completlety blasphemed Christ in what I just showed you by not declaring Him as the only way. I ask you would Mathew ,Mark ,Luke ,John or Paul recognize any other cultures pagan god as the “same God” or would they have stood firm in Christ alone??? I trust Mathew ,Mark ,Luke and John anyday of the week over Pope John Paul and Benidecht. I apologise if you feel I’m insulting your faith system or you personally. I mean no disrespect, but as an ex-catholic I could never call anyone but Christ my Holy Father! No men are Holy except Messiah Yeshua.

 

[regression]

Gwaz4Christ, in some of your posts you imply that the Catholic Church teaches we need Mary in order to obtain salvation. Is that an accurate statement about what you believe the church teaches?

Salvation comes from God alone, as the church teaches:

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/169.htm

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

Also, it might help to break up your posts in paragraphs to make it easier to read.

 

[davidv]

This is where the problem lies. You do not have any regard for scripture.
{snip}

It seems that you may be having a little trouble with that yourself.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Ex 20:16 RSV

 

[JustaServant]

It seems that you may be having a little trouble with that yourself.

It’s a shame the most vile and hateful anti-Catholics out there are poorly cahechized former Catholics.

 

[Gwaz4Christ]

I just want to add for clarification…

There cannot possibly be a greater definition of “esteemed” than to have God Himself choose you to mother Him.

If being a servant of God means, as it must, to align our thoughts and actions with the Lord as He has revealed them to us,

and if God gave to Mary the greatest possible esteem,

then we have to esteem Mary to the greatest extent possible.

To do otherwise is to not be in alignment with God’s revealed acts.

God chose an egyptian to mother Moses do we worship her??

God chose Solomon to build the Holiest temple and Tabernacle ever made, do we pray to
Solomon or thru him for intercessory???

Mary Magdeline performed the most Holy act when she annointed the Lords feet with oil amongst the Jewish High priests in preparing Him for His death yet do we worship or glorify her??

Mary is to be respected as the blessed and chosen vessel to bring God in the flesh into the world but Isaiah 7:14, which was considered scripture at the time only talks about a virgin with no mention or insinuation of the queenship, mediatorship needed for intercessory or grace or divinty which is apllied to mary by only cathoilc theology. This Messianic jewish scriptural prophecy surely would have detailed and without any question specified the importance of the virgin vessel which submitted to God’s will. But it does not exist. And to put it clearly the Prophets of the Old testemant scripture would not have left this out if the virgin was to be esteemed to the level catholics take it to… This was confirmed in the New Testament by Christ and His Apostles because no where in new Testemant scripture is there anything documented and written in accordance to the catholic theolgical claim about mary’s divinity and her being immaculate. It is a historically indisputable fact that Jesus had brothers and sisiters. Mary was not without sin because she called Christ her Savior and called herself a sinner as well. How could in all logic anyone say she was without sin??? Scripture says Christ came for all the sins of humanity. Was mary not human even in submission to God’s call of being the one to mother Jesus??? She was Christ’s earthly mother not a divine one. The Apostles died after mary died so if she was assumed as divine into heaven, where is the Scripture that would have verified such an amazing occurance so that we could all have believed in this important so called truth that Rome claims about her. It’s no early church or pre catholic doctrine nor is it in the Apocrypha. It was assumed by Rome through theoligical writings 100’s of years later and is in no way even slightly insinuated in those early writings and the Bible!

 

[Gwaz4Christ]

One billion insane people? That’s gonna be a big rubber room.

No sir 1 billion people who do not beleive everything in catechism but still call themselves catholic because of traditions, Doesn’t catechism say if you do not beleive what it decrees you are anathema and are not catholic???

 

[davidv]

No sir 1 billion people who do not beleive everything in catechism but still call themselves catholic because of traditions, Doesn’t catechism say if you do not beleive what it decrees you are anathema and are not catholic???

No it doesn’t say that.

 

[Gwaz4Christ]

Dave, I apologize. It’s only in certain issues like transsubstantiation and many others. My fault. Im sorry. But on the issue of transsubstantiation. Do you believe that when the sacacrifice of the mass occurs, That the the eucharist is the literal physical flesh of Christ being eaten, and the wine is the literal physical blood of Jesus being drunk and that Jesus is literally physically being re-sacrificed on that very alter in front of your eyes??? or do you believe that the eucharist is the body of Christ and that we should take that communion in symbolic rememberance of that sacrifice and the wine is symbolic of the blood of Christ to be drank in remeberance of His sacrifice and that we are remembering His Holy sacrifice for the atonement of sins and that we should take communion in rememberance of His Sacrifice???

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Remain on topic please

 

[Gwaz4Christ]

Forgive me if I mispeak as I am not yet Catholic.

I am astounded that you would, as a man, hold automatically to a position of your own determining and demand of God He give you a reason better than that He did so himself.

He inarguably and demonstrably esteemed her so Himself by the choosing of her.

I don’t even see the point in Scripture warring.

You wish to know where in Scripture Mary is esteemed “to this level”?

The part where you are told she’s the mother of Jesus.

That’s it. You don’t need any other Scriptural evidence than this.

Do you believe Jesus is God? Do you believe he existed before Mary? Then you must, without doubt, believe Christ chose this woman to mother Him.

He chose her to nurse Him, to bathe Him, to comfort and warm Him. He chose her to protect Him, to teach Him, to guide His first steps. He chose her to be the one to lay Him to sleep and wake Him in the morning, to come when He cries and kiss His forehead. And He chose her to let Him go and be free to do His will when the time came.

And here you sit, thinking there could possibly exist, to your mere human mind, a line of Scripture or argument greater than GOD HIMSELF choosing her to MOTHER Him.

Out of all time, all possibility, all who ever were and ever could be, He chose Mary.

That act - the choice itself - is bigger and more powerful proof than any inference you may think you read in Scripture.

No matter what you think, there is no place in Scripture - none at all - that denies that Our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son, chose to be born of Mary and be mothered by her.

The greatest love and devotions you could ever **possibly **give to Mary are but a fraction of an imitation of what God, through HIS ACT of choosing her, taught us to do by His most Holy example.

Peace of Christ†
RMN

Yes you do need scriptural evidence becuse of the level that Roman catechism takes it to with mary. Solomon built the Holiest temple that housed the Arc of the Covenant. Peter made the greatest declaration about Christ being the rock of the church and the son of the living God and do we worship him even though catholics call him the first Pope??? Clearly further clarification and writings of specific importance about Romes claims of Mary would have been written about yet no instruction on this exists is all I’m pointing out clearly. And in my my blogs , letters and writings not one person has been able to make that scriptural connection or clarification. The scripture written was so ridiculous and vague nothing written was written about a medatrix, or divine virgin. Just a traditional Jewish virgin.(Isaiah 7:14) Furthermore, I tell you scripture says , “There is only 1 mediator between God and man and it is Christ Jesus”, yet you go to amazing lengths to say catechisms claim holds authority over that indisputable, clear and concise scriptural verse. Either the catechism is right, about Mary being the medatrix or that Scriptural verse is wright. Both cannot be right because they are completely contradictory!! How do you escape this??? There is absolutley no other way to interpret this. But without you answering me I know you will say Rome and it’s traditions are right not the scripture. Because we both have 2 different authorities.

 

[ecohlman]

I will address as many verses as possible and give you the chear understanding of what they mean.

I am a bit concerned, doesn’t scripture tell us that the Word is not open to the interpretation of any man? What about Acts 8: 30-31
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31"How can I," he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

How is it that you can possibly give me a clearer understanding of the Word of God, then God himself?

Back to the topic: Devotion to Mary is no way required to achieve salvation, that is not now, nor ever has been taught by the Catholic Church. Just as is proven by the many verses already laid out though, Mary can and has led people to the source of salvation, Jesus Christ.
Regardless of the path that someone took to be led to Jesus, shouldn’t we be rejoicing that another soul has been saved, and that the Kingdom of Our Lord is continuing to advance?

 

[Gwaz4Christ]

This is getting strange. I see what is going on here. I will message Him directly.