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eichenb2
Guest
Given all that was discussed, it would be nice to see that Dominican order, en masse, to return to defence of Orthodoxy (in word and deed) and to leave speculation.
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J
JReducation
Guest
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eichenb2
Guest
Is there some SECRET teaching of Catholicism that religious have access to; and the laymen does not??? I am not sure whether you are being intentionally evasive. The basic premise of the post is that many Catholics are concerned that these traditional orders are no longer stringent defenders of Orthodoxy. This concern is readily apparent to casual observers. Sure…there is more nuance than some will admit, but, nonetheless, the concern is valid.But is it fair for the laity to decide for religious?
Fraternally,
JR
J
JReducation
Guest
The answer to this question is affirmative. There are many things about religious orders and religious life that the laity does not have access to and the Church wants it kept that way. But that has nothing to do with this thread. Those are internal affairs of the particular religious institutes.
Not really. But the history of religious orders, since before the Middle Ages to the day before yesterday, has been that every time the laity gets involved in the internal affairs of an order and tries to “fix” something, religious end up at the whim and pleasure of lay people. This has led to many reforms and conflicts within religious orders, especially among Franciscans, Benedictines, Cistercians and Carmelites. People got very hurt in the process and the Church suffered. Eventually the dust settles, but is there always a need to push to the point that a community becomes divided within itself?
The laity runs the risk of alienating the very religious that they need. There are already recorded cases of religious orders who have walked out of parishes and other diocesan ministries, leaving the bishop without staff, because the religious felt invaded by the laity. Many religious orders, including the Dominicans were not founded to run parishes and other diocesan institutions. They do so as a favor to the laity and to the bishop. When they are pushed, they reserve the right to pick up and leave. I for one hate to see this happen. I love the work that Dominicans do in our colleges, schools, parishes and the means of communication, including this forum.
I saw it once with the Trinitarians in one diocese. They left four parishes with no staff and the Josephites in the same diocese left three schools without teachers, because the bishop responded to the laity without concern for the autonomy of the religious. So the religious asked their Major Superior to pull them out of that diocese. The Major Superior informed the Vatican and the bishop that he was pulling his religious in 60 days. In another diocese the Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur pulled out of a school with 24 hours notice to the bishop. We have to be careful how we push.
Orthodoxy is always desirable, but one has to be diplomatic when dealing with those who have no obligation to serve us. When we label a religious community negatively, that is far from diplomatic. We have to keep in mind that these are good people. Even good people need time and space to discern and renew.
The perceptions are always valid, though they can be incorrect. No one denies that. We should always acknowledge people’s perceptions and try to respond as best we can. Nonetheless, the response is not always going to be what the individuals would like it to be. Sometimes we have to let things evolve and heal themselves, including religious orders.
I think of it like a family. We may have problems within our family, but unless another is invited to help us solve them, their presence or involvement may not be wanted for whatever reasons.
As to the Dominicans, though I am not a Dominican, I see a lot of good coming out of them and a great deal of very positive renewal that is not always obvious because they are such a large community. But good things are happening in that order. Anyone who lives near the Washington, DC area should visit the Dominican House of Studies at Catholic University or the Dominican House of Studies at St. Louis University. There are many holy and very orthodox young friars in formation there.
Fraternally,
JR
A
ack
Guest
Hello Paenitens,
This is the point in your post that struck me the most. While I don’t deny that there are liberal Dominicans and Franciscans out there (there are many of them), I’d like to note that your experiences are not representative of the Dominican and Franciscan religious families as a whole. The Dominican and Franciscan religious families are composed of multiple orders and congregations (institutes), which possess varying degrees of autonomy. In other words, not all religious families (orders) are hierarchical institutions with an all-powerful head like some assume that they must be. The way that things work is a lot more complicated than this.
Because the various communities and organizations have some autonomy, there is a lot of room for differences to develop. Some of the most intelligent and orthodox Catholic minds that I know are Dominicans. In fact, in some cities (at least in the US), the “Dominican parish” is the one with the reputation for being orthodox, and serves as a natural home for orthodox Catholics who are looking for solid and intellectual teaching at their parish.
Similarly, the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal might be the religious community in the US which is the most famous for making heroic efforts towards evangelism, and only teaching orthodox truth in an uncompromising way. Also, let’s not forget about Franciscan University and their youth outreach programs – again, very prolific and well-known for being a faith-filled and orthodox community.
So, in the end, the “trend” that I’ve seen has been the opposite – the religious orders are making some of the best efforts to preserve the truth in our society today.
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Paenitens
Guest
Hello Ack. Thank you for joining in.
In an earlier post, I said something to the effect that I would love to ultimately be proven wrong on this issue; I pray, therefore, that your observation is more representative than mine.
To try to summarize: my concern with the Franciscans, Jesuits, and Dominicans is that they are not filling what I feel to be a hyper-critical need in today’s church, which is to aggressively preach against heresy and for orthodoxy, and I know that I am not alone in this concern (casual perusing of the Catholic blog scene should suffice as proof); of course, this does not make me correct, but it does at least demonstrate that my concern is larger than just my own cerebrum.
I do understand that proselytizing is not, nor ever was, the sole concern of the Franciscans or the Jesuits. Still, one need not dig deep to know that these groups were born in times of great threat to the Church (laxity in faith due to economic expansion in Francis’ times, the “Reformation” in Ignatius’s, and the Cathar/Albigensians in Dominic’s.) We also know quite well what those glorious Saints did in the face of those threats – they engaged them, by proselytizing and preaching, deep in “enemy” territory, even at risk of their own lives.
Today the Church is beset by similar, if not greater, threats in the form of various secularisms, paganisms, Christian heresies, and Islam. Of course there are always exceptions when speaking of movements of tens of thousands of people – but I still fear that, as a whole, these venerable soldiers have given up the fight. Speculative theology is, truly, a worthwhile endeavor, but it is a luxury which current circumstances do not realistically allow; the same can be said for fighting for human rights in Latin America, Academic engagement at universities, etc.
JReducation seems primarily concerned about Lay meddling in Religious affairs. I think I understand and I also think I agree; however, that essentially brings us back to the beginning of the thread, where I and Eichenb bemoaned the lack of orthodox itinerant preaching and proselytizing by groups that were once the very vanguard in that effort. If not them, then who?
In an earlier post, I said something to the effect that I would love to ultimately be proven wrong on this issue; I pray, therefore, that your observation is more representative than mine.
To try to summarize: my concern with the Franciscans, Jesuits, and Dominicans is that they are not filling what I feel to be a hyper-critical need in today’s church, which is to aggressively preach against heresy and for orthodoxy, and I know that I am not alone in this concern (casual perusing of the Catholic blog scene should suffice as proof); of course, this does not make me correct, but it does at least demonstrate that my concern is larger than just my own cerebrum.
I do understand that proselytizing is not, nor ever was, the sole concern of the Franciscans or the Jesuits. Still, one need not dig deep to know that these groups were born in times of great threat to the Church (laxity in faith due to economic expansion in Francis’ times, the “Reformation” in Ignatius’s, and the Cathar/Albigensians in Dominic’s.) We also know quite well what those glorious Saints did in the face of those threats – they engaged them, by proselytizing and preaching, deep in “enemy” territory, even at risk of their own lives.
Today the Church is beset by similar, if not greater, threats in the form of various secularisms, paganisms, Christian heresies, and Islam. Of course there are always exceptions when speaking of movements of tens of thousands of people – but I still fear that, as a whole, these venerable soldiers have given up the fight. Speculative theology is, truly, a worthwhile endeavor, but it is a luxury which current circumstances do not realistically allow; the same can be said for fighting for human rights in Latin America, Academic engagement at universities, etc.
JReducation seems primarily concerned about Lay meddling in Religious affairs. I think I understand and I also think I agree; however, that essentially brings us back to the beginning of the thread, where I and Eichenb bemoaned the lack of orthodox itinerant preaching and proselytizing by groups that were once the very vanguard in that effort. If not them, then who?
J
JReducation
Guest
While I understand your concern and those who share it with you and do not minimize it, we do have to respect the evolution of the world. There are many areas where the Gospel must be preached. Right now the greatest area of concern for the Church are unity, the poor and peace. That’s where the Church has asked these religious orders to place their focus. They continue to be faithful to their Holy Fathers, Dominic, Francis and Ignatius. As long as they are faithful to the Church’s call to minister where the Church feels is the greatest need, then they are worthy sons of their great founders.
These are Orders of Pontifical Right. They respond directly to the priorities that the Holy Father sets for them. Their Major Superiors’ job is to find a way of executing the mission entrusted to them. This has been the case since they were founded. Popes Leo, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have reviewed the rules of these orders that depend directly on them and have established their priorities for them:
- Recover your fraternal roots and return to the fraternal life as religious
- Remove yourself from the work of parish ministry
- Go to the missions and serve the poorest of the poor
- Work for unity within the Church and with people of other faiths
- Work for peace
- Convert the youth
- Recover your contemplative lives
- Leave the conversion of the secular world to the Secular Orders
Fraternally,
JR
P
Paenitens
Guest
That’s a powerful argument…why did you leave that one till last? I had never heard that this was explicitly told to these order by a Pope. What is specifically meant by Secular Orders? SFO, OCDS, Lay Dominicans? If so, I fear we have several generations to go before those orders are ready to take on that mission, and, frankly, do not envision great success. Lay members are, well, lay. They have jobs & families and cannot dedicate their lives (by that I mean time and personal risk) like “full time” religious.
Can you expand on that one?
Thank you.
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eichenb2
Guest
romancatholicvocations.blogspot.com/2008/08/renewal-of-dominican-order-is.htmlWhile I understand your concern and those who share it with you and do not minimize it, we do have to respect the evolution of the world. There are many areas where the Gospel must be preached. Right now the greatest area of concern for the Church are unity, the poor and peace. That’s where the Church has asked these religious orders to place their focus. They continue to be faithful to their Holy Fathers, Dominic, Francis and Ignatius. As long as they are faithful to the Church’s call to minister where the Church feels is the greatest need, then they are worthy sons of their great founders.
These are Orders of Pontifical Right. They respond directly to the priorities that the Holy Father sets for them. Their Major Superiors’ job is to find a way of executing the mission entrusted to them. This has been the case since they were founded. Popes Leo, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have reviewed the rules of these orders that depend directly on them and have established their priorities for them:
If they obey these priorities that the Holy Fathers have set for them, then they are in union with their founders.
- Recover your fraternal roots and return to the fraternal life as religious
- Remove yourself from the work of parish ministry
- Go to the missions and serve the poorest of the poor
- Work for unity within the Church and with people of other faiths
- Work for peace
- Convert the youth
- Recover your contemplative lives
- Leave the conversion of the secular world to the Secular Orders
Fraternally,
JR
E
eichenb2
Guest
op.org/curia/ConstOP/Const1_0.htm
Dominican Constitution does not seem to indicate that the Friars should not concern themselves with the Laity. This was (and continues to be) the genesis of the Order’s existence.
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JReducation
Guest
I was not writing in order of priority, but just making an informal list. The idea that the religious orders are not to concern themselves about the laity is not what is implied here. What is implied is that the secular world is the proper context for the Secular Orders. There are areas that the Church can reach through the Secular Orders such as the Lay Dominicans, Lay Missionaries of Charity, Secular Franciscan Order, Order of Carmelite Discalced and Benedictine Oblates. Alongside these there are also Secular Institutes which function very much like secular orders.
Your question about family life and time is a good and valid one. If religious life is lived the way that the founders intended it to be lived and that the Chapters of the religious orders direct it, then religious have as little or as much time as the secular man or woman.
A religious has to pray the Liturgy of the Hours in community at least five times a day, spend time in silent prayer with his brothers, eat with his community, recreate with his community, attend all community functions, do housework like any member of any family, take care of the sick and elderly in his community like everyone else, get rest, study, and pray alone. If you add all this into a day, that significantly reduces the amount of time that the religious has for the active apostolate. In fact, that is one of the differences between a religious order and a religious congregation. Religious congregations do not have as many binding commitments within the community. Their way of life is built around their apostolate. In a religious order, the apostolate is built around the way of life.
This is where Secular Orders come in, to complement the work of the friar. By the way, not all members of a Secular Order are lay. Some are clerics.
In the case of Secular Orders they make a public and solemn profession to follow the rule and life of their order. They too have the same oblgiations to prayer and community life.
However, their community life is more flexible in that they work as brothers and sisters within the secular world, but they return to their home instead of going back to a friary or monastery. Whether they are in an office, at a shelter, in a parish or in the chancery, they are brothers and sisters to those around them and their primary duty is to spread the Gospel according to the means and the emphasis of their religious family.
Pope Pius XI wrote about the Secular Franciscans in his encyclical on St. Francis of Assisi “Rite Expiatis”.
**"The Third Order is indeed a religious Order but an altogether new type of community. From this source, therefore, there arose that profound impulse toward a saving reform of human society, toward that vast expansion and growth among Christian nations which had its beginnings in the new Order of which Francis was the Father and Teacher. The noblest virtues, too, came back into public esteem and honor. In a word, the “face of the earth itself was changed.” **
To the bishops of the world he wrote
"We expect that you will favor in every way within your power the Third Order of St. Francis, either by yourselves or by means of trained priests and eloquent preachers teaching the people the aims of this Order of men and women who live in the world, how worthy it is of popular esteem, how easy it is to enter this Order, to observe its holy rules, and how abundant are the indulgences and privileges which the Tertiaries enjoy. Finally, make known the great blessings which flow from the Third Order to individuals and to the communities where they live. You should urge those who have not yet given their names to this immortal band of soldiers to do so this year. As regards those who cannot, because of their age, join the Third Order, they should be enrolled as “Cordigeri” so that even from childhood they may become accustomed to the holy discipline of this Order."
Like this, other encyclicals have been writtern about the Lay Dominicans and the Secular Carmelites.
The best testimony to the vocation of the Lay Dominicans is probably in this short quote about Catherine of Siena, the most outstanding Lay Dominican in history.
**"The holy and virtuous ministers, God says to Catherine, themselves resemble the sun. They have, in fact, produced light and heat, “since in them there is no shadow of sin or ignorance, because they follow the doctrine of my Truth. They are warmed by it since they burn in the furnace of my charity”. Thus they give light and heat in the mystical body of the Church, illuminating and heating souls with supernatural knowledge and the ardent charity.
For the priests, His “Christs”, God always demands reverence and respect, whatever their human weakness may be, since any offence against them is also against Him. He asks Catherine and all the Christians to pray assiduously for the Holy Church and her ministers"**.
Pope John Paul II also had this to say.
"The Sienese saint, who refused the marriage for mother wished to impose on her, in order to totally devote herself to her only Spouse, Jesus, living her mystical marriage in the world, in the Dominican Third Order of the Catherinites, wonderfully incarnates the "female genius " described by John Paul II in the Mulieris Dignitatem. In the Pope’s words, the union with Christ and freedom rooted in God explain the great work of Saint Catherine of Siena in the life of the Church "
Catherine lived the vision of St. Dominic in her mission as a Lay Dominican, freedom rooted in God.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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eichenb2
Guest
Does anyone have an informed opinion about the Lay Dominican group at Farmington Hills, MI USA (Blessed Sacrament Chapter)? Are they othodox and loyal to the Magisterium?
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
I have no knowledge of the Lay Dominicans at Farmington Hills, MI, but if they are in anyway connected to the Dominican Nuns there my money is on them being totally orthodox. opnuns-fh.org/
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JReducation
Guest
If they are Lay Dominicans, they have to be loyal to the Magisterium. The Lay Dominicans are a canonical order, just like the friars and the cloistered nuns. You have to ask if they a canonically established fraternity. If so, then the answer would be affirmative.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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eichenb2
Guest
Thank you. That would be great.
J
JReducation
Guest
Here is the national directory of Lay Dominican Chapters
3op.org/findachapter.php
Good luck and God bless!
Br. JR, OSF
M
Marsha_Adams
Guest
Br. JR:If they are Lay Dominicans, they have to be loyal to the Magisterium. The Lay Dominicans are a canonical order, just like the friars and the cloistered nuns. You have to ask if they a canonically established fraternity. If so, then the answer would be affirmative.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I have come across several orders/congregations that are not only not loyal to the magisterium, but would cheerfully spit in the Pope’s eye given the opportunity. My point being that while a group may “have to be” loyal, it don’t mean they are.
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eichenb2
Guest
I must admit, I was alittle concerned when I say a video about “centering prayer” on their website. Should I be concerned?
J
JReducation
Guest
But that’s why the Dominicans have a Master, to protect their order from such things. It is no guarantee that you will not find a loose canon in any community you go to. We only go by their canonical status. The rest is addressed at the local level by the local minister or master.
Fraternally,
Br. JR
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eichenb2
Guest
Do you have personal experience with the sisters at Farmington Hills?
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