Great Lent in Eastern Catholic Churches

[xixxvmcm85]

I’ve just come to learn that while Eastern Catholics keep the Eastern practice of beginning Lent on Clean Monday (rather than the Western practice of Ash Wednesday), and keeping the Eastern proscriptions for fasting and abstinence, they nevertheless calculate Easter using the Gregorian (i.e. Western) calendar rather than the Julian, the latter of which is used by their Orthodox counterparts.

If ideally Eastern Catholics are to keep as much of their patrimony as possible, and minimize “Latinizations”, shouldn’t Eastern Catholics calculate the date for Easter (and subsequently all moveable feasts related to Easter such as Lent) to reconcile with the Orthodox date for Easter?

 

[SonCatcher]

I think some Eastern Catholics do use the old calendar. There are even Orthodox Churches that use a “new” calendar (similar but not identical to the Gregorian calendar - I don’t know the difference, however).

 

[SonCatcher]

Interesting signature image, BTW. It’s different every time I reload.

 

[malphono]

I think some Eastern Catholics do use the old calendar.

Yes. At least some UGCC do.

There are even Orthodox Churches that use a “new” calendar (similar but not identical to the Gregorian calendar - I don’t know the difference, however).

I think that’s known as the “Revised Julian Calendar” (used, IIRC, by the Greek Orthodox among others) and is a hybrid. It uses the Gregorian Calendar for fixed observances, but the standard Julian reckoning for movable ones.

 

[UncleBill]

I’ve just come to learn that while Eastern Catholics keep the Eastern practice of beginning Lent on Clean Monday (rather than the Western practice of Ash Wednesday), and keeping the Eastern proscriptions for fasting and abstinence, they nevertheless calculate Easter using the Gregorian (i.e. Western) calendar rather than the Julian, the latter of which is used by their Orthodox counterparts.

If ideally Eastern Catholics are to keep as much of their patrimony as possible, and minimize “Latinizations”, shouldn’t Eastern Catholics calculate the date for Easter (and subsequently all moveable feasts related to Easter such as Lent) to reconcile with the Orthodox date for Easter?

OK…first things first…MOST Eastern Catholics do use the same calendar as the Orthodox for calculating Pascha…just not here in the US, where most but NOT ALL Eastern catholics follow the Gregorian calendar for Pascha.

The only Orthodox church to use the Gregorian calendar for Pascha is the Church of Finland, a very small church.

 

[SonCatcher]

I think that’s known as the “Revised Julian Calendar” (used, IIRC, by the Greek Orthodox among others) and is a hybrid. It uses the Gregorian Calendar for fixed observances, but the standard Julian reckoning for movable ones.

Thanks. I really appreciate the explanation.

Won’t that eventually make Pascha crash into the Nativity? (it’s a few dozen millennia out, but still)

 

[Cavaradossi]

Thanks. I really appreciate the explanation.

Won’t that eventually make Pascha crash into the Nativity? (it’s a few dozen millennia out, but still)

I suppose that would eventually be possible. The revised Julian calendar is in many ways a failure. Among its problems is that on certain years when Easter falls late in the year, the Apostle’s Fast is completely eliminated (as it is this year). There is nothing technically wrong with doing it this way, as it is in complete accordance with the way Nicaea declared that Easter should be calculated (which, along with a condemnation of the Gregorian Calendar which was made several centuries ago, is the most major stumbling block to adopting a more accurate paschalion than one based on the Julian Calendar), and churches are free to set their own calendars and fasting practices. But at the same time, I think many are aware that the Revised Julian Calendar is no good solution at all.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

I suppose that would eventually be possible. The revised Julian calendar is in many ways a failure. Among its problems is that on certain years when Easter falls late in the year, the Apostle’s Fast is completely eliminated (as it is this year). There is nothing technically wrong with doing it this way, as it is in complete accordance with the way Nicaea declared that Easter should be calculated (which, along with a condemnation of the Gregorian Calendar which was made several centuries ago, is the most major stumbling block to adopting a more accurate paschalion than one based on the Julian Calendar), and churches are free to set their own calendars and fasting practices. But at the same time, I think many are aware that the Revised Julian Calendar is no good solution at all.

Why won’t the Orthodox consider the Gregorian calendar? Is there anything wrong with it in particular or is it b/c it was formulated by the Roman Pope? And yes looking at the calendar this year the Revised Julain does interfere with the Apostles Fast…and the Gregorian makes it rather long as well heheh what with Western Pascha coming early this year.

 

[SonCatcher]

I forked off the general calendar conversation to a new thread so we don’t derail this one.

On Reconciling Eastern and Western Calendars

 

[SyroMalankara]

Some Eastern Catholic and Orthodox use the same Gregorian Calendar, like the Syriac Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox, and Syro-Malankara Catholic Churches in India.

 

[SyroMalankara]

See this youtube video, scroll to the end to see how the Malankara Syriac Great Lent begins with Forgiveness - the priest asks the congregation and they in turn ask him. Then forgiveness is asked to all from all!

youtube.com/watch?v=QIFRcTNcDfQ

 

[Sybok]

If ideally Eastern Catholics are to keep as much of their patrimony as possible, and minimize “Latinizations”, shouldn’t Eastern Catholics calculate the date for Easter (and subsequently all moveable feasts related to Easter such as Lent) to reconcile with the Orthodox date for Easter?

in the USA some ukrainians are on the julian calendar just like the eastern orthodox

in eastern europe all byzantine catholics use the julian calendar - in western europe, uk, france, germany im not sure.

as far as eastern orthodox go, the finnish orthodox use the gregorian calender and gregorian easter from what i understand

 

[Vico]

I’ve just come to learn that while Eastern Catholics keep the Eastern practice of beginning Lent on Clean Monday (rather than the Western practice of Ash Wednesday), and keeping the Eastern proscriptions for fasting and abstinence, they nevertheless calculate Easter using the Gregorian (i.e. Western) calendar rather than the Julian, the latter of which is used by their Orthodox counterparts.

If ideally Eastern Catholics are to keep as much of their patrimony as possible, and minimize “Latinizations”, shouldn’t Eastern Catholics calculate the date for Easter (and subsequently all moveable feasts related to Easter such as Lent) to reconcile with the Orthodox date for Easter?

There is organic change. For example from the start the Pascha was celebrated on a weekday. That was changed in 325 A.D. to be Sunday and also after the vernal equinox. Then, bishops in different locations approved the calculations based upon different equinox times. As a result, there has never been a uniform use the same day everywhere, but rather it is based upon ecclesiastical jurisdiction. Eastern Catholics represent a variety of jurisdictions with different traditions so one calendar is not used among all of them.

 

[UncleBill]

There is organic change. For example from the start the Pascha was celebrated on a weekday. That was changed in 325 A.D. to be Sunday and also after the vernal equinox. Then, bishops in different locations approved the calculations based upon different equinox times. As a result, there has never been a uniform use the same day everywhere, but rather it is based upon ecclesiastical jurisdiction. Eastern Catholics represent a variety of jurisdictions with different traditions so one calendar is not used among all of them.

From the time the date of Pacha was set until the calendar reforms of Pope Gregory the date of Pacha was uniform throughout Christendom. The problem was the Pope changed the calendar on his own with no consultation with the EASTERN Churches.

Today the date of Easter means nothing to 99.999 of Western Christians…while in the East the date of Pascha is very important…why doesn’t the
West adopt the Eastern date of Easter until a proper Council can be called to make a permanent fix? Many Roman Catholics already celebrate on the Eastern calendar so I don’t see a problem with this (the Middle East, Greece, the Lebanon,etc.).

 

[Zekariya]

My Melkite parish is celebrating Gregorian (Western) Pascha.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Why won’t the Orthodox consider the Gregorian calendar? Is there anything wrong with it in particular or is it b/c it was formulated by the Roman Pope? And yes looking at the calendar this year the Revised Julain does interfere with the Apostles Fast…and the Gregorian makes it rather long as well heheh what with Western Pascha coming early this year.

I don’t purport to be the Orthodox, but I can understand their reluctance to adopt it.

Firstly, the Gregorian calendar was formulated by the Church of Rome long after they had broken communion with each other. To some extent, they do not see the need to ‘Latinise’ their calendar when the practices of the Latins inconsequential to their orthodoxy.

Secondly, they’ve been on the Julian calendar for centuries unto centuries, and they do not wish to compromise on that aspect of their Tradition. To be Orthodox means to be ‘right-believing’, and nobody wants to be the one who effectively tells the world that the un-Orthodox Catholics were more ‘right’ than the Orthodox themselves.

Thirdly, any reform is inherently risky. It’d be daft of us to think that any reform on their part would not cause some consternation in their communion the same way the Mass of Paul VI did in the Latin Church. No bishop wants to risk schism within their church, especially when such a move is already contraindicated by the above reasons.

If there’s any resolution to this, I believe that it needs to be a joint effort with broad consensus shared by both Orthodox and Catholics. As of now, I don’t see that consensus occurring, but these things cannot be rushed. We will need many more years of dialogue to improve attitudes towards each other as well as fixing our own problems within our own churches before we can start discussing such matters. One can only pray that we achieve this before it’s too late and the calendars start contradicting each other in the strangest manners conceivable.

If there are any of our Orthodox brothers here, please feel free to correct me.

 

[Zekariya]

I used to be EO and OO and I personally feel that the Revised Julian Calendar doesn’t make much sense. Either follow the Julian Calendar or follow the Gregorian Calendar. The Revised Julian Calendar messes up the Apostles Fast not to mention the divisions the choice of calendar has caused.

Personally, I think it best to follow the Julian Calendar until a Pan-Orthodox Council settles the calendar problems. Just my :twocents:.

 

[dvdjs]

From the time the date of Pacha was set until the calendar reforms of Pope Gregory the date of Pacha was uniform throughout Christendom. The problem was the Pope changed the calendar on his own with no consultation with the EASTERN Churches.

I am not sure where on earth such ideas come from, but in fact the date of Pascha most certainly was NOT uniform throughout Christianity after Nicea I. Even the very first year after the council, different reckoning of the equinox in different localities led to different dates. And afterwards different cyclic algorithms cropped up in different localities.

Pope Gregory did two things:
First, get the reckoning of the equinox back on track - as prescribed by Nicea I. Second, shift the calendar so that the equinox data would be the same as at the time of NIcea I.This change conserved the familiar progression of feasts, and avoided the problem the Cavaradossi attaches to the “revised Julian calendar” - although the problem is the combined use of that calendar, and the reckoning of Pascha that uses, in effect, Mar 21 Julian as the vernal equinox, that it the real cause of that problem. It was a appropriate thing to do, even though it took some time for it to be adopted even in the West: it fixed the calendar, affirmed the reckoning of Nicea I, and conserved the pattern of liturgical feasts.

 

[UncleBill]

I am not sure where on earth such ideas come from, but in fact the date of Pascha most certainly was NOT uniform throughout Christianity after Nicea I. Even the very first year after the council, different reckoning of the equinox in different localities led to different dates. And afterwards different cyclic algorithms cropped up in different localities.

Pope Gregory did two things:
First, get the reckoning of the equinox back on track - as prescribed by Nicea I. Second, shift the calendar so that the equinox data would be the same as at the time of NIcea I.This change conserved the familiar progression of feasts, and avoided the problem the Cavaradossi attaches to the “revised Julian calendar” - although the problem is the combined use of that calendar, and the reckoning of Pascha that uses, in effect, Mar 21 Julian as the vernal equinox, that it the real cause of that problem. It was a appropriate thing to do, even though it took some time for it to be adopted even in the West: it fixed the calendar, affirmed the reckoning of Nicea I, and conserved the pattern of liturgical feasts.

The point I am trying to make is The Gregorian calendar was imposed by Rome with no consultation or (name removed by moderator)ut from the East. Nobody in the West really cares when Easter is celebrated…for all intent and purpose Hallmark sets the date for Easter. If we plan on fixing a common celebration of the Feast of Feasts across Christendom the East’s (name removed by moderator)ut should be respected. My point was in all humility Rome should give in and take up celebrating Pascha according to the Orthodox reckoning and THEN come up with a plan for the future.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

The point I am trying to make is The Gregorian calendar was imposed by Rome with no consultation or (name removed by moderator)ut from the East. Nobody in the West really cares when Easter is celebrated…for all intent and purpose Hallmark sets the date for Easter. If we plan on fixing a common celebration of the Feast of Feasts across Christendom the East’s (name removed by moderator)ut should be respected. My point was in all humility Rome should give in and take up celebrating Pascha according to the Orthodox reckoning and THEN come up with a plan for the future.

Well said!