Green scapular?

[cheddarsox]

I am uncomfortable with the practice of “hiding” a green scapular in a person’s possesions to affect conversion. It feels dishonest to me.

I know that I would not want anyone of another faith to place an amulet unbeknownst, on my or anyone in my family. It feels like an inappropriate “invasion”, and even smacks of magic and superstition.

How do you feel about this? Is subterfuge justified?

cheddar

 

[Genesis315]

What’s the difference between putting a sacramental in someone’s vicinity without them knowing and praying for them without them knowing (which you do along with the scapular.)?

You wouldn’t want people of other faiths to do it because they are false faiths, but to lead someone to the true faith is an act of charity.

 

[mass4life]

Hiding the Scapular is only necessary if you feel the person would throw away the blessed item or would be offended if you offered it as a gift.

A person may wear the Scapular just as the brown one.

 

[cheddarsox]

Genesis315:

What’s the difference between putting a sacramental in someone’s vicinity without them knowing and praying for them without them knowing (which you do along with the scapular.)?

I’ve been asking myself the same question. And there is a difference. I am aware, and have long been aware that people will think about me without my consent. That people pray, and that there are many belief systems. That people can and do pray for me without my consent. And sometimes I am uncomfortable with it.

**But there is a difference between a person speaking to the divine about me, and a person placing a physical amulet among my things to invade my space with their “magic”, without my consent.

It is different to look and think about a person than to make verbal or physical contact with them. One is more invasive than the other.

**You wouldn’t want people of other faiths to do it because they are false faiths, but to lead someone to the true faith is an act of charity.

**I disagree. I do not think it right for anyone of any faith to place an amulet on another, or in another’s belongings without consent. It is wrong and abusive. The bad means do not justify what you see to be a good end.

It is an invasion which messes with the other person’s free will.

I could very easily see where such a thing could be viewed by the person (if they discovered it) as occultic and even demonic, which clearly would not help the cause of conversion.

People of other faiths might well be placing such an item in an effort to lead a Catholic to “truth” as well, or to give them protection or from some other such good intention. Yet it is wrong to invade a person’s spiritual space in this way. It is insidious.

I do not have an issue with people sharing their beliefs, but I am very uncomfortable with the use of “magic” to do so.

cheddar**

 

[cheddarsox]

mass4life:

Hiding the Scapular is only necessary if you feel the person would throw away the blessed item or would be offended if you offered it as a gift.

A person may wear the Scapular just as the brown one.

Why is hiding ever necessary? If the people do not want it, why is it justified to force it on them through deceit?

What would you do if you found out someone had done this to you or your child?

cheddar

who would feel angry and violated

 

[YinYangMom]

You know, Cheddar, you and I have agreed and disagreed on various topics around here. I’ve almost always been able to appreciate your point of view because you present your perspective clearly and respectfully, and on this one, I tend to agree.

I get that we’re instructed to hide the scapulars only if we believe the recipient would destroy it…but, you’re right…if they’re that against the faith it sure would be rude to sneak it into their house - especially since we know it carries with it certain assurances.

I’d be very upset if my kids’ friends slipped something of their beliefs into their possession, particularly if that something is supposed to carry with it some sort of ‘power’.

But I’ve got 3 siblings who have left the Catholic church due to divorces/remarriages and a marriage to a non-Catholic so I’m considering sewing green scapulars into items for my brother and my sister (now Baptist) but not into something for the house which would affect the husband/wife/kids. For my other brother who is still Catholic just not practicing, I will give him his as a gift to wear. He would do so. The two baptists would be offended if I gave them the scapular. I don’t think they’d destroy it but I don’t trust their spouses to not destroy it or throw it away.

For all three my focus is on their personal re-version rather than the conversion of their family members. I know my siblings don’t know the seriousness of the decisions they made because we were catechised by the same catholic school. I’ve just recently learned a lot of things I was not taught back then or was taught erroneously.

I would never consider sneaking in a green scapular to friends or family I know aren’t catholic and don’t have a desire to be catholic. If someone in my circle expressed an interest in learning about catholicism, then I might give them a green scapular as a gift along with some good book which explains catholicism.

 

[catsrus]

Unbeknownst to DH, there is a green scapular under his side of the mattress.
And it’s staying there.

 

[jrabs]

cheddarsox:

**It is an invasion which messes with the other person’s free will. **

We cannot mess with someone’s free will. Everyone is in charge of their own will and make their own choices accordingly. It is a bit presumptuous to think otherwise.

cheddarsox:

…I do not have an issue with people sharing their beliefs, but I am very uncomfortable with the use of “magic” to do so.

cheddar

A scapular is not magic.

We use the green scapular to invoke Our Mother’s assistance in prayer for that particular person. We believe She will lay the prayers at our Lord’s feet and He may help to melt the heart of that person so that a conversion may be possible. Conversions are less likely with a hardened heart.

Ultimately the conversion is the based on the free will of the person we are praying for.

If you love someone and know they are astray, why wouldn’t you want to help this person find Jesus? You cannot compare this to an occult practice because you know that this is a path to the truth.

 

[YinYangMom]

jrabs:

If you love someone and know they are astray, why wouldn’t you want to help this person find Jesus? You cannot compare this to an occult practice because you know that this is a path to the truth.

What we Catholics ‘know’ is really what we “BELIEVE to be True”.

We believe Jesus when He said, “I am the Truth”.

Several followers in Jesus’ day did not.
They left, basically, they went astray.
He allowed them to.

With Catholics who have gone astray. With Christians who once led a spiritual life, but end up in the occult, or leaning toward athiesm…those, I think, are the ones the green scapular should be given to. They once believed, but are now lost.

But those who never believed, express no interest in believing - to ‘hide’ a green scapular in their house, car or on their person would be an intrusion. If it means that much to you to save this person then hand them one scapular as a gift. If they destroy it, give them another. If they destroy it, give them another. One time, with the grace of God, they’ll not destroy it but toss it aside and then God’s work can continue (the decision not to destroy it but to toss it somewhere is already God’s work through your prayers).

Yes, the scapular is not magic, but the person giving it and praying over it believes in the promises and therefore is taking an action to change a person’s heart.

An occultist who hides a charm or crystal in my car, home, or on my person and then chants a prescribed set of words or performs certain rituals believes it will bring about a change in me. We Catholics believe this can happen, that’s why we are warned to stay away from such things and expressly denied by the Church any involvement with the occult.

So if magic, not based on Truth, can change our hearts or wear them down, and devotions, based on Truth, can do the same, then for the non-Catholic the distinction is practically non-existent. Remember many non-believers think we’re an occult too, and these type of devotions don’t really help with to dispell the misconception.

 

[YinYangMom]

catsrus:

Unbeknownst to DH, there is a green scapular under his side of the mattress.
And it’s staying there.

Now, this, I have no problem with because he already joined himself to you willingly.

It would be better if you were close enough to him spiritually to have been able to give him the gift openly, but you know him better than anyone, and his conversion will fulfill your sacramental obligation to help him grow spiritually throughout your marriage, without hurting him at all. He gave his YES earlier.

I’m still hesitant about hiding one in a gift for my practicing baptist but baptized and confirmed Catholic brother and sister. I’d like to find a way to openly give it to them, but because they are married to people who would destroy it even if they didn’t, I’m leaning toward hiding it.

 

[cheddarsox]

We cannot mess with someone’s free will. Everyone is in charge of their own will and make their own choices accordingly. It is a bit presumptuous to think otherwise.

**If hiding a scapular is not an attempt to mess with someone’s free will, what is it? If they are not WILLING to accept the scapular, if you feel or know they will throw it away if you give it to them, if it is clear that they are uncomfortable with the idea of having it around…how is sneaking it into their presence not messing with their free will?
**

A scapular is not magic.

We use the green scapular to invoke Our Mother’s assistance in prayer for that particular person. We believe She will lay the prayers at our Lord’s feet and He may help to melt the heart of that person so that a conversion may be possible. Conversions are less likely with a hardened heart.
**
I am comfortable with the idea of prayer. If the scapular has no power, no “magic” than why is it necessary to hide it among the person’s possesions? If it is the prayer that makes the difference, why bother with the scapular? Perhaps the person praying for the conversion of the loved one could wear the scapular for the duration to show their own devotion to the cause. It is the idea that the scapular must by hidden among the other person’s possesions that make it seem like magic is being practiced.**

Ultimately the conversion is the based on the free will of the person we are praying for.

If you love someone and know they are astray, why wouldn’t you want to help this person find Jesus? You cannot compare this to an occult practice because you know that this is a path to the truth.

**I think it is a fine thing to share your faith, and to have a desire to lead a friend to the truth. It is not the goal that I am uncomfortable with, it is what appears to be a deceitful means to a good end that I am questioning.

If a couple wanted a baby and husband felt it best to wait 6 months till finances cleared up, and woman lied to husband about fertile time in order to get pregnant now…would that not be deceitful? A bad means to a good end (baby being good)?

I think that if one wants to share their faith. It should be done in an honest and open way, respecting the other person’s will and honoring the power of the spirit to work without deceit.

cheddar
**

 

[jrabs]

YinYangMom:

Yes, the scapular is not magic, but the person giving it and praying over it believes in the promises and therefore is taking an action to change a person’s heart.

An occultist who hides a charm or crystal in my car, home, or on my person and then chants a prescribed set of words or performs certain rituals believes it will bring about a change in me. We Catholics believe this can happen, that’s why we are warned to stay away from such things and expressly denied by the Church any involvement with the occult.

So if magic, not based on Truth, can change our hearts or wear them down, and devotions, based on Truth, can do the same, then for the non-Catholic the distinction is practically non-existent. Remember many non-believers think we’re an occult too, and these type of devotions don’t really help with to dispell the misconception.

I guess we will continue to disagree on hiding the scapular.

I do not have any problems with hiding it and feel it is no intrusion. We are called to evangelize - and at times I cannot do it with my words. In fact I make a rather poor apologist - so my words will probably do little. But I can use my prayers and the scapular for assistance.

Frankly, I do not really think it matters what people think of us ( Catholics). That is where the gift of courage from the Holy Spirit becomes valuable - to rise above our fears and do what is right and to evangelize in the name of Jesus. If we know the scapular is not magic, then why should we have a problem?

We are also called to not be luke-warm. I hear a tinge of lukewarm if one does not wanting to step on the toes of non-Cathlics because something may offend them.

Now let’s talk about the fear of encouraging misconceptions by using the scapular. There are hordes of misconceptions about near everything Catholics do from the Eucharist, rosary, prayers to Mary and the saints, confession, etc. Do you not partake in the Eucharist because people have misconceptions about this? Do you not talk of the beauty of Our Lady because people have misconceptions of Her?

We are in a spiritual battle and we need to use the weapons to help others who are spiritually weak or worse - spiritually oppressed. And in the case of loved ones, sometimes we may be the only exposure to the truth these people have.

Guess I’ll exercise the gift of courage that I have been blessed with and deal with the risk that someone may get angry at me when they find the green scapular that I hid in their sofa cushion.

 

[jrabs]

? A bad means to a good end (baby being good)?

I think that if one wants to share their faith. It should be done in an honest and open way, respecting the other person’s will and honoring the power of the spirit to work without deceit.

cheddar

Your analogy of the baby…Pretty harsh saying the green scapular is a bad means to a good end! WOW

 

[YinYangMom]

jrabs:

I guess we will continue to disagree on hiding the scapular.

It’s not so much that I disagree with hiding it as much as I’m wondering where we got the idea, the instruction, to hide it in the first place. It does seem to be a devious act to achieve a moral good and the Church teaches ends do not justify the means, so how was it, the Church came to say ‘except in this case’ with regard to the scapular.

It is quite possible that the directive to ‘hide’ it could be a misinterpretation…that we heard it from someone who heard it from someone else kinda thing, as opposed to hearing it from the source. I do remember hearing it on Relevant Radio though, and I recall even then, raising a brow to what was being said at the time.

I do not have any problems with hiding it and feel it is no intrusion. We are called to evangelize - and at times I cannot do it with my words. In fact I make a rather poor apologist - so my words will probably do little. But I can use my prayers and the scapular for assistance.

As with all moral matters, just because you ‘feel’ it is not an intrustion doesn’t make it so. Take away the faith aspect of the scenario and it is indeed an intrusion by definition. It may be a ‘justified’ intrusion by your standards, but that doesn’t make it so.

Yes you may use your prayers and a scapular for assistance, but may you really ‘sneak’ one in there? Who says?

Frankly, I do not really think it matters what people think of us ( Catholics). That is where the gift of courage from the Holy Spirit becomes valuable - to rise above our fears and do what is right and to evangelize in the name of Jesus. If we know the scapular is not magic, then why should we have a problem?

Yes, you do think it matters otherwise you would give the scapular to everyone and not resort to hiding it. The gift of courage from the Spirit can move you to be brave enough to present the scapular directly as opposed to hiding it. We know it isn’t magic, but the other people do not and that puts you in the position of harming the church…your actions lead a non-believer into professing “with physical evidence” that Catholics believe in magic because you placed a ‘charm’ in that persons home while praying for his/her conversion. To the unknowing, sounds like magic.

We are also called to not be luke-warm. I hear a tinge of lukewarm if one does not wanting to step on the toes of non-Cathlics because something may offend them.

Be hot for the faith then. Be brave. Hand the scapular openly to all. Hiding it demonstrates luke-warmness to me.

Now let’s talk about the fear of encouraging misconceptions by using the scapular. There are hordes of misconceptions about near everything Catholics do from the Eucharist, rosary, prayers to Mary and the saints, confession, etc. Do you not partake in the Eucharist because people have misconceptions about this? Do you not talk of the beauty of Our Lady because people have misconceptions of Her?

Those are things we do openly for ourselves. Do we hide when we take the Eucharist? Do we hide for Eucharistic Adoration? Do we hide when we pray the rosary? Then why hide when we want to convert a person? But here’s something we do for others that we do so secretly…doesn’t that sound ‘off’ to you?

We are in a spiritual battle and we need to use the weapons to help others who are spiritually weak or worse - spiritually oppressed. And in the case of loved ones, sometimes we may be the only exposure to the truth these people have.

Agreed.

Guess I’ll exercise the gift of courage that I have been blessed with and deal with the risk that someone may get angry at me when they find the green scapular that I hid in their sofa cushion.

Take the risk all the way then and present it to them as a loving gift.

 

[YinYangMom]

jrabs:

Your analogy of the baby…Pretty harsh saying the green scapular is a bad means to a good end! WOW

First of all, she did not say the green scapular was a bad means to a good end.

The scapular is an object, neither good nor bad.
The hiding of it is an action which can be viewed as good or bad.
The giving of it openly is an action which can be viewed as good or bad.

She said hiding the scapular is a bad means to a good end.

Where is the error in the analogy?

 

[jrabs]

YinYangMom:

Yes, you do think it matters otherwise you would give the scapular to everyone and not resort to hiding it. The gift of courage from the Spirit can move you to be brave enough to present the scapular directly as opposed to hiding it. We know it isn’t magic, but the other people do not and that puts you in the position of harming the church…your actions lead a non-believer into professing “with physical evidence” that Catholics believe in magic because you placed a ‘charm’ in that persons home while praying for his/her conversion. To the unknowing, sounds like magic.

Be hot for the faith then. Be brave. Hand the scapulare openly to all. Hiding it demonstrates luke-warmness to me.

Take the risk all the way then and present it to them as a loving gift.

hmmm, you have presumed much YinYang Mom. You have presumed that I do not start out offeirng the scapular before hiding it. Hiding it is ONLY after the refusal.

And you do pose a great point. Where did we get the directive to hide it? Not sure. Anyone know?

 

[YinYangMom]

jrabs:

hmmm, you have presumed much YinYang Mom. You have presumed that I do not start out offeirng the scapular before hiding it. Hiding it is ONLY after the refusal.

And you do pose a great point. Where did we get the directive to hide it? Not sure. Anyone know?

If I presumed it is because you left that detail out in your previous posts in this thread. I don’t recall any of us here actually mentioning whether it should be hidden after having been offered…

but that raises the brow a bit higher, then, doesn’t it? Morally?

You offered.
Through free will they refuse.
You sneak it in anyway - against their expressed will.

And please recognize the ‘you’ is not ‘you’, personally, it’s the general ‘you’ as in anyone considering doing this.

 

[jrabs]

YinYangMom:

If I presumed it is because you left that detail out in your previous posts in this thread. I don’t recall any of us here actually mentioning whether it should be hidden after having been offered…

but that raises the brow a bit higher, then, doesn’t it? Morally?

You offered.
Through free will they refuse.
You sneak it in anyway - against their expressed will.

And please recognize the ‘you’ is not ‘you’, personally, it’s the general ‘you’ as in anyone considering doing this.

Oh, I know you don’t mean me when you write…

Ok - back to your question about morally. Nope- I still have no problem hiding the scapular after someone refuses. I keep in my mind that at present their hearts are not open to the Holy Spirit. That does not mean in the future, He will not help them remove the veil of deceit.

I am fully aware that I cannot change someone’s will. Thus the reason why I have no problem hiding the scapular even after they refuse one as a gift.

Some of my loved ones express anger towards the church. At present it is not their will to be a practicing Catholic. But I pray for them and have hope that one day they will soften - I don’t just accept that and turn my back. I just like to use the scapular for additional assistance.

 

[Cesaria]

catsrus:

Unbeknownst to DH, there is a green scapular under his side of the mattress.
And it’s staying there.

Yup! There is a Green Scapular under the mattress on DH’s side of the bed too.

 

[Marie]

jrabs:

Oh, I know you don’t mean me when you write…

Ok - back to your question about morally. Nope- I still have no problem hiding the scapular after someone refuses. I keep in my mind that at present their hearts are not open to the Holy Spirit. That does not mean in the future, He will not help them remove the veil of deceit.

I am fully aware that I cannot change someone’s will. Thus the reason why I have no problem hiding the scapular even after they refuse one as a gift.

Some of my loved ones express anger towards the church. At present it is not their will to be a practicing Catholic. But I pray for them and have hope that one day they will soften - I don’t just accept that and turn my back. I just like to use the scapular for additional assistance.

I hide em and as for my DH…there is one on all four corners of the bed! He has never asked what it is or why…