Green scapular?

[Cesaria]

jrabs:

…

I am fully aware that I cannot change someone’s will. Thus the reason why I have no problem hiding the scapular even after they refuse one as a gift.

Some of my loved ones express anger towards the church. At present it is not their will to be a practicing Catholic. But I pray for them and have hope that one day they will soften - I don’t just accept that and turn my back. I just like to use the scapular for additional assistance.

Yes I agree with you jrabs! I feel the same way.

 

[Marie]

YinYangMom:

If I presumed it is because you left that detail out in your previous posts in this thread. I don’t recall any of us here actually mentioning whether it should be hidden after having been offered…

but that raises the brow a bit higher, then, doesn’t it? Morally?

You offered.
Through free will they refuse.
You sneak it in anyway - against their expressed will.

And please recognize the ‘you’ is not ‘you’, personally, it’s the general ‘you’ as in anyone considering doing this.

If it is good enough for the Church…it is good enough for me.

Here are the official rules.

Practices

1. Wear or carry the scapular
   2. To help another, place it in their vicinity (i.e. their room)
2. Pray, at least daily: “Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death”
3. The prayer should be said for oneself and separately for each person to whom it has been given or offered (unless they pray themselves)
4. No enrollment of any kind is necessary, but each scapular should be blessed by a priest (general blessing of sacramentals)
5. Have confidence in the effects of the scapular:

 

[YinYangMom]

jrabs:

Oh, I know you don’t mean me when you write…

Just checking…didn’t want to presume erroneously

Ok - back to your question about morally. Nope- I still have no problem hiding the scapular after someone refuses. I keep in my mind that at present their hearts are not open to the Holy Spirit. That does not mean in the future, He will not help them remove the veil of deceit.

I believe that too, so why not pray, pray, pray, and continue to offer, offer, offer until that veil is lifted so the person accepts the scapular. Each prayer, each offered scapular allows the Spirit into that person so that they at least stop rejecting it. They may toss it aside not intending to give it another thought but at least they didn’t throw it away or burn it.

I am fully aware that I cannot change someone’s will. Thus the reason why I have no problem hiding the scapular even after they refuse one as a gift.

Is it because you’re trying to change their heart, not their will?

I still have a problem with not honoring a person’s expressed wish, especially a person with whom I have a relationship based on trust. It just doesn’t seem morally correct to dishonor the relationship like that…meaning, it seems contrary to Church teaching.

Some of my loved ones express anger towards the church. At present it is not their will to be a practicing Catholic. But I pray for them and have hope that one day they will soften - I don’t just accept that and turn my back. I just like to use the scapular for additional assistance.

If you’ve read my previous posts you’ll recall I am considering using the ‘hidden’ scapular myself with my brother and sister, so I’m not totally against what you’re saying here, but I have to admit, having to respond to your position leads me toward not hiding one after all and working to find the courage to present it to them myself in love and kindness.

You said, “I don’t just accept that and turn my back.” and of course, no one is suggesting you should. Of course we’re supposed to keep praying for them. And I do see where we should offer the scapular, more than once if necessary. But I don’t see where hiding it is honorable or brave. I’d like to use the scapular too, because of the promises, but I think I’d rather use it boldly and I can be patient enough to wait until the right time for that.

 

[YinYangMom]

Marie:

I hide em and as for my DH…there is one on all four corners of the bed! He has never asked what it is or why…

So they aren’t hidden, right? That seems perfect to me.
Boy will you be doing a dance when his conversion comes!!!

 

[Marie]

Marie:

If it is good enough for the Church…it is good enough for me.

Here are the official rules.

Practices

1. Wear or carry the scapular
   2. To help another, place it in their vicinity (i.e. their room)
2. Pray, at least daily: “Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death”
3. The prayer should be said for oneself and separately for each person to whom it has been given or offered (unless they pray themselves)
4. No enrollment of any kind is necessary, but each scapular should be blessed by a priest (general blessing of sacramentals)
5. Have confidence in the effects of the scapular:

 

[Marie]

YinYangMom:

So they aren’t hidden, right? That seems perfect to me.
Boy will you be doing a dance when his conversion comes!!!

His isn’t, other family members are… I’ll dance just as well either way. Already got several saves from the hidden ones. They didn’t know what hit them. I am very good at making gifts with the scapular sewn inside.

 

[YinYangMom]

Marie:

If it is good enough for the Church…it is good enough for me.

Here are the official rules.

Practices

1. Wear or carry the scapular
   2. To help another, place it in their vicinity (i.e. their room)
2. Pray, at least daily: “Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death”
3. The prayer should be said for oneself and separately for each person to whom it has been given or offered (unless they pray themselves)
4. No enrollment of any kind is necessary, but each scapular should be blessed by a priest (general blessing of sacramentals)
5. Have confidence in the effects of the scapular:

Thanks for finding that…
but notice that 2. is worded “place it” it does not say “hide it”.

You placed yours on the four corners of your bed for your husband to see. He could keep them up or take them down.

I should think the same would go for everyone else. Rather than hide it under the mattress, place it in their car, their office, wherever they may spend time, but place it visibly so they can keep it up or take it down.

Hiding it where we know they’ll never look is deceptive. It is us breaching trust with them. I do not see the Church condoning a breach of trust.

 

[jrabs]

Marie:

His isn’t, other family members are… I’ll dance just as well either way. Already got several saves from the hidden ones. They didn’t know what hit them. I am very good at making gifts with the scapular sewn inside.

So that’s what I ate in that last fruitcake! I have to admit it was chewy!

All kidding aside, you have great faith in the green scapular.

 

[jrabs]

YinYangMom:

Is it because you’re trying to change their heart, not their will?.

Once again, I cannot change hearts or wills. I just have desire to see them Catholic.

YinYangMom:

I still have a problem with not honoring a person’s expressed wish, especially a person with whom I have a relationship based on trust. It just doesn’t seem morally correct to dishonor the relationship like that…meaning, it seems contrary to Church teaching…

Every time you pray for someone to convert, you are not honoring their wishes.

YinYangMom:

But I don’t see where hiding it is honorable or brave. .

I never used the words honorable or brave. I used the word evangelize.

 

[YinYangMom]

Well I stand humbly corrected then: :bowdown:

monksofadoration.org/mom/mom120.html

Later, in another vision Our Lady told Sister Justine that one need not be enrolled in this Scapular, it only needs to be blessed by a priest and worn—or it may even be placed in the pocket, under the pillow, hidden in the room, etc. of a sinner or faithless person without that person knowing it. Each day the prayer on the Scapular should be said. If the person given the Scapular is not going to say the prayer then the person giving it should say it. Sister Justine was told that the graces would be given in proportion to the confidence of the petitioner. In time the Scapular was approved by Pope IX—the companion of Sister Justine on those walks in the Vatican gardens.

Of course, that is assuming 3 things:

1. This owners of this site (monksofadoration.org) are recognized as legitimate representatives of Catholicism.
2. That they are stating what happened accurately and not interjecting their own interpretation of what happened.
3. That when Pope IX approved the scapular he did so with the provision that “it could be hidden without that person knowing it” as opposed to approving the apparitions, the scapular itself, and the promised of Our Lady, but not the specifics about how it was to be used.

If anyone finds anything else about this please let me know.

 

[YinYangMom]

So this page (which I know is from a legitimate organization) leads to another question:

svp.org.uk/content/history6.php

“…this new scapular and the prayers of those who used it would be a means that God would use to bring Himself those who had no faith and to reconcile those who had strayed from their faith.** Thus would they be assured of a happy death**.”

I have been struggling over the souls in purgatory. Delighted to learn that one indulgence on my part for one baptized soul in purgatory will end that soul’s stay and bring them to the glory of God, I was dismayed to learn the indulgences didn’t work for non-Catholic souls in purgatory.

There are so many good, kind, Christian loving people who have passed I just hate the thought of them being hung up in purgatory. If there’s anything I can do for them I’d like to know what it is…

But looking at that sentence, I guess for those who are still alive, having a green scapular with me praying for them would assure them of a happy ‘death’, but doesn’t necessarily have an affect on their time in purgatory, huh? Then again, a happy death - one they face peacefully - is a wonderful gift in and of itself. Wouldn’t praying the Divine Mercy chaplet do the same? or the rosary even?

 

[Marie]

YinYangMom:

Thanks for finding that…
but notice that 2. is worded “place it” it does not say “hide it”.

You placed yours on the four corners of your bed for your husband to see. He could keep them up or take them down.

I should think the same would go for everyone else. Rather than hide it under the mattress, place it in their car, their office, wherever they may spend time, but place it visibly so they can keep it up or take it down.

Hiding it where we know they’ll never look is deceptive. It is us breaching trust with them. I do not see the Church condoning a breach of trust.

Well! I shall just have to scold the many priest’s over the years who have told me it is NO problem then…shant I!

It has not one thing to do with their faith…they have zip. It has to do with your knowing Our Lady asked for it’s use, hidden or otherwise, and your faithfulness to pray for them. Good grief! You act like people are suggesting spraying them with insecticide.

LOL! I am sorry, I think I see where your coming from, but your wrong. By your interpetation, one would have to ask permission to pray for others in all instances.

 

[cheddarsox]

jrabs:

Your analogy of the baby…Pretty harsh saying the green scapular is a bad means to a good end! WOW

I did not say the scapular is a bad means, I said deceit was the bad means. Very different, don’t you think?

cheddar

 

[C_S_P_B]

**
John Hardon SJ has an excellent summary of sacramentals in his “Catholic Catechism” (Doubleday 1975, pp. 548-49):

*Sacramentals differ from the Sacraments in not having been instituted by Christ in order to be perpetuated within the Church as divinely established means of conferring grace. *

For the most part, sacramentals are instituted by the Church, and even where we know that Christ practiced what is now considered a sacramental (such as the washing of the feet at the Last Supper), the ritual was not intended by him as essentially related to the salvation or sanctification of the world.

They further differ from the sacraments in their efficacy. Sacraments confer grace as instrumental causes in such a way that, provided no obstacle interferes, the grace which they signify they also produce by the power of God, who works through them… Not so the sacramentals. Their efficacy does not come from the ritual performed but partly from the disposition of the person who uses them and partly from the intercessory prayer of the whole Church, to which there belongs a particularly effective power because she is the holy and immaculate bride of Christ…

“The sacramentals finally differ from sacraments in the effects they produce. Unlike the sacraments, they do not confer sanctifying grace directly but merely dispose a person to its reception…”
**

Now, how can it be wrong to assist a person in being open to receiving sanctifying grace from God?

Another consideration is that a sacramental can provide protection from the “evil one” and his servants. The grace of God can most easily find the human heart when the influence of the devil is banished.

Another useful sacramental is the St. Benedict Medal which can be placed in 4 corners of a property, room, bed or otherwise worn or placed anywhere. Binding the devil and facilitating the reception of the grace of God is a good thing. Any person always has free will to refuse this gift from God.

Make use of the sacramentals! Holy Water, Scapulars, Miraculous Medals, St. Benedict Medals, Crucifixes, Rosary, Other Medals, Blessed Salt, Blessed Oil, Blessed Candles. Unite your prayers with those of the Church for those you love and within your community.

Anyone assisted in finding salvation thru unsuspected use of sacramentals is welcome to take me to task when we get to heaven.*

 

[Island_Oak]

Marie:

Here are the official rules.

Practices

1. Wear or carry the scapular
   2. To help another, place it in their vicinity (i.e. their room)
2. Pray, at least daily: “Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death”
3. The prayer should be said for oneself and separately for each person to whom it has been given or offered (unless they pray themselves)
4. No enrollment of any kind is necessary, but each scapular should be blessed by a priest (general blessing of sacramentals)
5. Have confidence in the effects of the scapular:

Without ANY intention to offend anyone who sincerly follows this (Church sanctioned) practice, am I the only one out there who finds this a little pagan, idolotrous, almost voodoo-like in its focus on the object/scapular instead of relying in faith that the prayers offered to God are sufficient on their own for the purpose sought? Specifically, look at #6 above–where confidence is directed to the power of the scapular, a piece of cloth, not the power of God. (?)

It’s one of those customs that those outside the Church love to point to as “evidence” of the ‘idolotry of Catholics’.

 

[catsrus]

Whether it had anything to do with my conversion or not, I don’t know…but many years ago, at least, 30, I found a green scapular in a house I rented. I was consumed with curiosity about it and tucked it away in my jewelry box. I lost it later, in yet another move, but never forgot how it made me feel to look at it.
DH knows about the scapular because when we moved last year, it fell out when we moved the bed. He said nothing about it and it’s back in it’s original place - under his side of the mattress.
The day may come, as it did to me, when he will be drawn to find out the meaning by either asking me or, as I did, looking up information concerning it’s meaning.
Either way, I see a win - win situation.

 

[jrabs]

Island Oak:

It’s one of those customs that those outside the Church love to point to as “evidence” of the ‘idolotry of Catholics’.

I say let them point then. They point at many other things as well, including our devotion to the Blessed Mother and the real presence in the Eucharist. Point away!

Those who have faith need not worry about being mocked and criticized.

 

[Island_Oak]

jrabs:

I say let them point then. They point at many other things as well, including our devotion to the Blessed Mother and the real presence in the Eucharist. Point away!

Those who have faith need not worry about being mocked and criticized.

Again, without intending to offend, I perceive a clear distinction between devotion to the BVM or transubstantiation–and use of a scapular. Mary is not prayed to as the source of power, she is an animate intercessor to God on our behalf. With transubst. the focus is on the ‘real presence’ Christ in the eucharist over the mere symbolic value of the wafer to recall his sacrifice. With the scapular–it seems to me as if people come to view these inanimate objects as a necessary part or source of the power to convert or protect. Am I missing something?

 

[jrabs]

Island Oak:

Again, without intending to offend, I perceive a clear distinction between devotion to the BVM or transubstantiation–and use of a scapular. Mary is not prayed to as the source of power, she is an animate intercessor to God on our behalf. With transubst. the focus is on the ‘real presence’ Christ in the eucharist over the mere symbolic value of the wafer to recall his sacrifice. With the scapular–it seems to me as if people come to view these inanimate objects as a necessary part or source of the power to convert or protect. Am I missing something?

Guess maybe you are confused because no one here mentioned Our Blessed Mother was a source of power.

Yeah, I think you are missing something. The church uses these as tools to assist us in our prayer life. Yes, we can pray without using these, but if the church has given us these gifts to use, then why not?

 

[Marie]

Island Oak:

Again, without intending to offend, I perceive a clear distinction between devotion to the BVM or transubstantiation–and use of a scapular. Mary is not prayed to as the source of power, she is an animate intercessor to God on our behalf. With transubst. the focus is on the ‘real presence’ Christ in the eucharist over the mere symbolic value of the wafer to recall his sacrifice. With the scapular–it seems to me as if people come to view these inanimate objects as a necessary part or source of the power to convert or protect. Am I missing something?

UM! Missing or adding? No Catholic I know of thinks any of the above as reguards Our Lady.

Pope Paul VI, in his Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, of January 1, 1967, made some statements which have relevance to all devotional and pious practices of Catholics, such as the scapular and the Rosary:

To gain indulgences the work prescribed must be done. But that is not all. The faithful must have the dispositions that are necessary. These are that they must love God, hate sin, trust in Christ’s merits, and believe firmly in the great help they obtain from the Communion of Saints. (ch. 4, sec. 10).

Vatican II stressed active participation in the liturgy:
In order that the liturgy may be able to produce its full effects it is necessary that the faithful come to it with PROPER DISPOSITIONS, that their minds be attuned to their voices, and that they cooperate with heavenly grace lest they RECEIVE IT IN VAIN. Pastors of souls must, therefore, realize that, when the liturgy is celebrated, something more is required than the laws governing valid and lawful celebration. It is their duty also to ensure that the faithful take part FULLY AWARE of what they are doing, ACTIVELY ENGAGED in the rite and enriched by it…
Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that full, conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy…In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy the full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered above all else, for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit. Therefore, in all their apostolic activity, pastors of souls should energetically set about achieving it through the requisite pedagogy.

{Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Dec. 4, 1963, ch. 1, I, sec. 11 and II, sec. 14;