Greeting a Kafir

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ralphinal said:
I would see this as a totally different issue. This would have more to do with the gender issue than religion. Would you not be the same way with Muslim men?
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Absolutely. Although, Muslim men have the same kind of mentality and it’s easier with them. They don’t stand so close, don’t extend their hands to shake, etc.

But I didn’t bring it up. 🤷
 
ora_pro_nobis said:
I have muslim friends and family members. They initiate greetings all the time and do not subscribe to this nonsense.

Remember, this is just one person’s opinion on a q and a forum - their traditions are open to interpretation by both the wise and the foolish.
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I too have muslim in laws as well as extended friends and acquaintances. Even though I am standing right in front of them, ahead of my husband, they will always greet my husband or son first before they greet me. This rule of not greeting any kafir first is alive and well even in california.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

All I know is that the Muslims I’ve had the privilege of knowing have not behaved like that: something a lot of people could say. 🙂​

The quotation, however authentic, is not evidence that all Muslims are like that, or that all agree with it, or even need to. Digging up quotations that put a religion in a bad light is not difficult: a lot of Christians do it to Catholicism; & we are often not convinced; why should this quotation, however genuine as as a sample of Muslim jurisprudence, be convincing as proof of the character of Islam ? Catholics in the UK, like those in the US, have been a minority with absurd myths & & half-truths told about them: it would be frightful if a later minority were to be subject to the same treatment. 😦
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The muslims who go to the mosque and listen to the sermons are those that in my observation strictly apply the rule. In this case, most muslims.
 
Actually hand shaking between men & women is prohibited here in SA, our Saudi clerics are using this hadith to back their claim:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 89, Number 321:
“The Prophet used to take the Pledge of allegiance from the women by words only after reciting this Holy Verse:–(60.12) “…that they will not associate anything in worship with Allah.” (60.12) And the hand of Allah’s Apostle did not touch any woman’s hand except the hand of that woman his right hand possessed. (i.e. his captives or his lady slaves).”

صحيح البخاري:
كان النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يبايع النساء بالكلام بهذه الآية ‏"‏لا يشركن بالله شيئا" ‏قالت وما مست يد رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يد امرأة إلا امرأة يملكها .
​
(E) (A)

And some SA Islamic clerics go further than that and prohibit hand shaking between men also (as when the recent interfaith gathering in US, where the Saudi king instructed not to hand shake Israel’s president), they use this verse from Quran to back their claim:
(Quran 9:28):
“O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.”
 
yes Sam but it seems muhammad touched that woman who refused to marry him though she wasn’t his “possession” yet.

Besides, if they are trying to prohibit men shaking hands as well in SA, they better do it because of homosexuality rampant there.
 
inJESUS said:
yes Sam but it seems muhammad touched that woman who refused to marry him though she wasn’t his “possession” yet.
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Yes, I agree with you, that is another contradiction in Islam.🤷
Besides, if they are trying to prohibit men shaking hands as well in SA, they better do it because of homosexuality rampant there.
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It seems Sodom and Gomorrah act in SA has reached everywhere. 😉
 
inJESUS said:
yes Sam but it seems muhammad touched that woman who refused to marry him though she wasn’t his “possession” yet.

Besides, if they are trying to prohibit men shaking hands as well in SA, they better do it because of homosexuality rampant there.
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Shame on you for referring to women as posessions. That’s gross.

Also, does it occur to you that maybe the “woman” was actually a young girl? Not reached the age of puberty? A scholar told me this weekend that once the Prophet (saws) was walking and a little girl came and took his hand and just led him around. And he followed her until she let go. Sweet, how he was around children. I don’t see a problem with it. Do you?
 
Awww…Muhammad loved children soooo much, it almost makes you forget about the nine year old he slept with…oh, wait. No it doesn’t. That still happened, and it’s still disgusting.
 
Yeah, him and Joseph - dirty old men! lay on off that, will you? it’s tired and ready to be put to bed.
 
Uh, Mary’s rather elderly husband, dude. I’m not even a Christian, and I know that. She was, according to most sources, about 12, and already pregnant when he checked out the goods, as the saying goes, and was about to divorce her - but an angel convinced him to ease down.
 
Nepenthe said:
Uh, Mary’s rather elderly husband, dude. I’m not even a Christian, and I know that. She was, according to most sources, about 12, and already pregnant when he checked out the goods, as the saying goes, and was about to divorce her - but an angel convinved him to ease down.
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Wow. I was hoping that you would respond in a different manner.

First, the age that you cite is correct. More than likely, she was between 12 and 16.

Second, Joseph was not elderly. Depending on the sources, he was between 24 and 34. He may have been older, but in any event, he would not have been elderly.

Third, he did not “check out the goods” as you so crassly put it. He was already engaged to her when she was found to be with child. As he knew it was not his, he was to divorce her. You are correct that an angel told him the whole story.

Most importantly, Joseph never had sex with her. Besides, even though modern laws do not really see a difference, the reality that is 9 verses a teenager must come into account.
 
Shade said:
Twelve to sixteen, not twelve.
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Well, I’ve sure heard 12 much more often, including on these fora. But such was the world until very recent times.

Also, I was trying to be both informal, yet not clinical. Sorry if that came out sounding crass - not intentional!

On the other hand, woah, have I seem a frightening amount of flagrant rudemess towards other religions on this particular forum, so maybe I’m a little annoyed deep down.

Oh right, and back then, 34 was a pretty respectable age, for a workingclass man, just as it was in feudal Europe, and so forth. Very few survived to become greybearded men and whitehaired old women, unless they were carefully sustained by their community as teachers and theologians, for example. Hard times, man, hard times.
 
Actually, in that time, place, and culture, it was not unlike saying “When she is older, I would be glad to provide for her and protect her, madam, if you require assistance.”

As I’ve said, things were different but not in as many ways as one might suppose. Mohammed was being gracious.

And by the way, I’m no apologist for any religion in particular - I suscribe to none, nor ever have. But I have made it my avocation to learn as much as possible about world cultures, various historical accounts, and even the foods, languages and so forth of as many peoples and periods as possible - I find it fascinating, and often sadly alienating to so many people, from everywhere and time.
 
dzheremi said:
Awww…Muhammad loved children soooo much, it almost makes you forget about the nine year old he slept with…oh, wait. No it doesn’t. That still happened, and it’s still disgusting.
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Muslim scholars are in agreement that whatever Aisha’s age was (9, 12, 15 even according to some reports), she was considered an adult.
 
Sister, can I smoke some of your camel grass? 9 ain’t no adult in anyone’s definition.
Sister_Amy said:
Muslim scholars are in agreement that whatever Aisha’s age was (9, 12, 15 even according to some reports), she was considered an adult.
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