Greeting a Kafir

[Sister_Amy]

in what sense?

In the sense that she could get married. That she was mature enough for it, physically and emotionally, according to the culture.

 

[Booklover]

In the sense that she could get married. That she was mature enough for it, physically and emotionally, according to the culture.

You really think that a 9 year old is prepared physically and mentally for sex??

Vickie

 

[Imryl]

I would just like to thank the Muslims on this thread for remaining so charitable despite some of the very hostile remarks. Since I know absolutely nothing about Islam it has been an interesting read.

My husband’s grandmother was married at the age of 14. WAY to young by today’s standards. When the average, maximum life expectancy was in the low thirties - as recently as a couple hundred years ago - then yeah, I can easily come to the conclusion that young girls … younger then 12, were expected to procreate.

 

[inJESUS]

In the sense that she could get married. That she was mature enough for it, physically and emotionally, according to the culture.

in which case she surely was of the age of consent. yet it was her father who decided…if i understand you well, a mature girl will be able to decide for herself, or not? or wasn’t she of the age of consent despite her maturity?

And if am not mistaken, girls who haven’t reached puberty are allowed to be married and men are allowed to divorce their women who haven’t reached puberty…right?

 

[Sister_Amy]

in which case she surely was of the age of consent. yet it was her father who decided…if i understand you well, a mature girl will be able to decide for herself, or not? or wasn’t she of the age of consent despite her maturity?

And if am not mistaken, girls who haven’t reached puberty are allowed to be married and men are allowed to divorce their women who haven’t reached puberty…right?

First of all, I don’t understand the concept of “age of consent” in Islamic law. I’ve never heard that there is such a thing in the first place. A woman is never allowed to be married without her own consent.

To answer your other questions, yes, although I can’t see how it’s relevant to the discussion.

Most importantly, the marriage of Muhammad to Aisha falls under the category in Islamic law of things which were permissible because of the particular culture–remember that Aisha was even engaged to someone else before she was married to Muhammad. And if it were such a horrendous thing, how can you imagine her own father would have permitted it?

But cultures today for the most part do not operate the same way, and so such a marriage as to Aisha would not be appropriate. Merely one or two centuries ago, people did not raise such strong objections as you do now to the marriage to Aisha, even an American biographer of Muhammad. It was understood as it should be understood still, that it was acceptable in that culture, not necessarily in every culture.

Such attempts to impugn the honor of Muhammad are growing old, and I am growing tired of them.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

You really think that a 9 year old is prepared physically and mentally for sex??

Vickie

Hindus holy book says it’s best to arrange marriage of daughter before she is 7 . Rabbis said a girl of 3 can get married .

Jesus (p) fixed any minimum age for marriage in OT & NT ?

 

[Booklover]

First of all, I don’t understand the concept of “age of consent” in Islamic law. I’ve never heard that there is such a thing in the first place. A woman is never allowed to be married without her own consent.

To answer your other questions, yes, although I can’t see how it’s relevant to the discussion.

Most importantly, the marriage of Muhammad to Aisha falls under the category in Islamic law of things which were permissible because of the particular culture–remember that Aisha was even engaged to someone else before she was married to Muhammad. And if it were such a horrendous thing, how can you imagine her own father would have permitted it?

But cultures today for the most part do not operate the same way, and so such a marriage as to Aisha would not be appropriate. Merely one or two centuries ago, people did not raise such strong objections as you do now to the marriage to Aisha, even an American biographer of Muhammad. It was understood as it should be understood still, that it was acceptable in that culture, not necessarily in every culture.

Such attempts to impugn the honor of Muhammad are growing old, and I am growing tired of them.

Wasn’t her father at first not happy with the situation? He knew better than deny Muhammad anything he wanted. He might have lost his head if he had.

The character of Muhammad is clearly seen in Islamic writings and it’s not one I’d be proud of.

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

A woman is never allowed to be married without her own consent.

but we are talking about a child whose father gave the consent, not her. You say she is considered to be an adult, that is why i asked why can’t an adult give her consent? or did she give her consent?

Most importantly, the marriage of Muhammad to Aisha falls under the category in Islamic law of things which were permissible because of the particular culture–remember that Aisha was even engaged to someone else before she was married to Muhammad. And if it were such a horrendous thing, how can you imagine her own father would have permitted it?

 

[Booklover]

but we are talking about a child whose father gave the consent, not her. You say she is considered to be an adult, that is why i asked why can’t an adult give her consent? or did she give her consent?

i understand the culture part, but does it mean this example of Muhammad’s life is not to be imitated in all cultures and times? the Quranic ayas related to marriage and divorce to girls who haven’t reached puberty are not eternal? can you please cite some sources?

.

 

[inJESUS]

Also if she was engaged to someone else before Muhammad, why didn’t she get to marry him?

maybe because Muhammad wanted her.

There’s no way that I’ll believe that a 9 year old would consent to marry a man old enough to be her grandfather! Muhammad wanted her and her father could not refuse him!

the problem is that she did not decide. It was her father. As to his agreeing on Muhammad, well why not? he had good relations with him and he sonsidered him a prophet.

now it seems she did giver her consent:

"The Prophet said, ‘A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent.’ ‘O Apostle! How will the virgin express her consent.’ He said, ‘By remaining silent.’

 

[Sister_Amy]

 

[Sister_Amy]

inJESUS;4450685:

Also if she was engaged to someone else before Muhammad, why didn’t she get to marry him?

There’s no way that I’ll believe that a 9 year old would consent to marry a man old enough to be her grandfather! Muhammad wanted her and her father could not refuse him!

Vickie

Engagements are broken off… or does that not happen in your world?

I am really tired of reading your prejudice. It’s getting very old and annoying.

Abu Bakr did refuse at first, but not for the reasons you might think. When his concern was satisfied, he agreed. But do you really think Aisha was opposed?

 

[Sister_Amy]

maybe because Muhammad wanted her.

the problem is that she did not decide. It was her father. As to his agreeing on Muhammad, well why not? he had good relations with him and he sonsidered him a prophet.

Right. It’s an issue of shyness for young girls, who at least in my own experience are very quick to express displeasure but shy to admit their anticipation.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

inJESUS;4450685:

if she was engaged to someone else before Muhammad, why didn’t she get to marry him?

because he ( Jubair Ibn al Mut’am inb ‘Adi) denied to accept Islam.

There’s no way that I’ll believe that a 9 year old would consent to marry a man old enough to be her grandfather!

Vickie

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will… 4:19

"O Prophet! Say to your wives:

If you desire the life of this world and its adornments, then come and I will bestow its goods upon you, and I will release you with a fair release.

But if you desire God and His Messenger and the abode of the Hereafter, th en verily God has laid in store for you an immense reward for such as you who do good." ( 33:28-29 )

Aishah’s (ra ) reply was:

“Indeed I desire God and His Messenger and the abode of the Hereafter,” and her response was followed by all the others.

“I looked at the full moon and compared it to the face of prophet of God and I could not decide which one was more beautiful.” This is how she felt of her husband and conveyed it to others in her mature old age.

In the U.S. during the last century, the age of consent was 10 years old.

California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889.

related links :

A Woman For All Seasons: Aisha bint Abu Bakr
Denise Halel

crescentlife.com/index.htm

Addressing Misconceptions about Prophet’s Marriage to `Aisha (ra)

islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=63495

 

[inJESUS]

Are you suggesting she was opposed to the marriage, or had no say?

i read nowhere that she gave her opinion, did you? it was always her parents. So again, why wouldn’t an adult give an opinion?

Muhammad’s life and culture is not to be imitated in all cultures and times, obviously

. That doesn’t make the ayaat any less eternal however. It’s possible for a number of reasons that a girl might begin menstruation late, even as she is considered an adult in that society, and get married before menarche. She also might have menstrual problems which for other reasons might necessitate the utilization of legal rulings based on those ayaat.am a bit confused here. His marriage to Aisha could be immitated in all cultures and times since the Quran allows the marriage and divorce to girls who haven’t reached puberty so if a man of 60 years wanted now to marry a girl of 9, her parents have to agree and he is not to be blamed.

But my question is : what is a mature girl if she is 6, does not give consent, and did not reach puberty? if she reached puberty then she is adult? if adult then she must give consent?

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;4450965:

Right. It’s an issue of shyness for young girls, who at least in my own experience are very quick to express displeasure but shy to admit their anticipation.

although i don’t understand how can you believe a 6 year old to fully grasp the notion of marriage in order to agree or not, your answer means that Muhammad didn’t have to ask her parents since she said yes?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy;4454675:

inJESUS;4450965:

although i don’t understand how can you believe a 6 year old to fully grasp the notion of marriage in order to agree or not, your answer means that Muhammad didn’t have to ask her parents since she said yes?

Of course he had to ask her parents. And he did ask her parents. But her consent was required for the validity of the contract.

For example, there was at the time of Muhammad a girl married against her will. She went to Muhammad and asked (after the marriage) if it was permissible, and since it was not he was ready to dissolve the marriage for her. But she didn’t want that. Since she hadn’t offered her consent before, she wanted to make sure that from then on girls knew they had a right to refuse marriage, and they could not be compelled into by their families.

It bothers me how people consistently underestimate the character of Aisha. She was a strong and intelligent woman who contributed enormously to Islamic law, narrating more Hadith from Muhammad than almost anyone else. Give her a little credit. Are you aware of ANY objections from her on the matter of her marriage to Muhammad? Ever?

 

[Booklover]

Engagements are broken off… or does that not happen in your world?

That engagement was broken off because Muhammad wanted the 6 year old Aisha!

I am really tired of reading your prejudice. It’s getting very old and annoying.

I also get tired of arrogant Muslims who keep telling us that Jesus didn’t die on the cross, that the Bible is corrupted and that the only true things in it are those that agree with the Quran!

It’s not prejudice to object to what is morally offensive to us!

Abu Bakr did refuse at first, but not for the reasons you might think. When his concern was satisfied, he agreed. But do you really think Aisha was opposed?

What were Abu Bakr’s reasons for finally approving of the marriage?

No! I don’t think Aisha had anything to say about the matter. What would a 6 year old know about marriage and sex? If she did approve as you believe, show us where it’s stated that she consented.

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

That engagement was broken off because Muhammad wanted the 6 year old Aisha!

Is that what you think?

I also get tired of arrogant Muslims who keep telling us that Jesus didn’t die on the cross, that the Bible is corrupted and that the only true things in it are those that agree with the Quran!

It’s not prejudice to object to what is morally offensive to us!

Does ranting at me improve your vigor?

What were Abu Bakr’s reasons for finally approving of the marriage?

Undoubtedly the same as mine, if the proposal was to me.

No! I don’t think Aisha had anything to say about the matter. What would a 6 year old know about marriage and sex? If she did approve as you believe, show us where it’s stated that she consented.

Vickie

I want you to show me a time when Aisha objected to the marriage–some indication that she was not happy with her husband.

 

[Booklover]

inJESUS;4456660:

Sister Amy;4454675:

It bothers me how people consistently underestimate the character of Aisha. She was a strong and intelligent woman who contributed enormously to Islamic law, narrating more Hadith from Muhammad than almost anyone else. Give her a little credit. Are you aware of ANY objections from her on the matter of her marriage to Muhammad? Ever?

What could she do about it? She was married when she was still a very young child and didn’t know any better, so she got used to it. It’s all she knew.

Vickie