Grief, seperation, & trust-Long:(

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Lifeisamazing

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My marriage is in shambles. Seperation is really the only option as the situation is escalating. For many reasons, but the catalyst for sleeping seperately was that his angry outbursts, including terrible names and scary statements, had me walking on egg shells. In front of our infant, no less. I felt I had to act perfect to counteract his temper, but that is pretty difficult to maintain and resentment began to creep in. It is very confusing b/c he can be so wonderful but then that can change in an instant. I am constantly bracing for the bad guy, and so even when the good guy is there I don’t believe it. I know this hurts him too. Nice guy doesn’t last too long though. We get along fine as long as everything goes his way, and I am devoid of opinion or thought. Yes, I actually tried to be that way to get some shelter from the guilt and anger he spews, but that is no way to live either. I said I would like to learn some new ways to communicate together, and healthy conflict resolution. He would not agree.

He says I just have to trust him, but the behavior doesn’t meet the demand. I think time and consistancy and therapy are the only way for trust to be rebuilt. He thinks he is a great guy and has only “raised his voice a few times”. That is grossly innaccurate.

I withdrew, not knowing what to do, and that only made things worse. I didn’t feel I could talk to anyone b/c I felt they would judge him and I always talk to him about things first. He does the opposite, and goes to all his buddies in hopes he can gather a lynch mob.

I pushed for counseling, and after a lot of coercion, he went but there hasn’t been a lot of honest exchanges (wasn’t enough time spent to do so, or participation). I maintained hope and faith for many months, enduring threats, angry outbursts, swearing, insults, and constantly being asked for seperation. Now that I say yes, he said no and I was really confused. He then quickly reverted back when I didn’t jump into his arms, and says “I am in for a rude awakening” and more.

I am really sad for my son, but I am more afraid of him growing up watching mom & dad not get along and learning the wrong way to relate.

I spent months examining myself and so I could see my own flaws and grow. I encouraged my Christian counselor to be my mirror to see these safely, since my husband is not a safe person to grow with in that way. I am excited about this growth, though painful. I will continue the counseling; husband has decided not.

Now, looking to legally seperate next week.

Here is the question(s):

-Can trust be rebuilt when things get so bad?

-So much damage has been done. How do you even get past that? (I am especially angry that he tells everyone our private business before he even talks to me (Our sex life is an open book for all the guys he works with too). I feel so uncomfortable even being around them. He is very good at playing the victim in public and Mr. Perfect Aw Shucks too. I have spoken to him about this, but it hasn’t stopped. It is humiliating and makes me feel his motives/intentions are all about hurting. shrug:

Advice and prayers please.
 
Prayers for you and your family.

One question, as marriage is a spritual relationship, what is his faith? Is he a practicing Catholic?

It is easier to give advice when knowing where both are when it comes to Faith.
 
kage_ar said:
Prayers for you and your family.

One question, as marriage is a spritual relationship, what is his faith? Is he a practicing Catholic?

It is easier to give advice when knowing where both are when it comes to Faith.
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I am a cradle Catholic, and he is a non-practicing Christian. He doesn’t agree with much of Catholicism, but that has improved b/c a man he works with is Catholic and he respects him. (He would go to church with me sometimes but it was tough as he would make fun of things during mass. He didn’t do this until after we were married.) He did go talk with my priest at my priest’s request but I think a lot of that was about feeling threatened that the church was my safe place. I did tell him prior to marriage that any children would be Catholic or no marriage. My son was baptized and will be brought up Catholic. I told him that I want us to let go of secular pressures and grow in God and help each other be holy. I told him that I would like us to rebuild on that foundation with new focus. He is more secularly driven and his goal is “I just wanna be happy” which means anything that hurts gets struck down. My goal is “I want to grow in Christ”. That means sacrifice and yes, sometimes painful self evaluation and honesty and humility.

After months of him putting down any attempt at healing, growth, counseling, fighting me all the way, I did finally agree to seperate after he ignored me for two days. Only after I granted him seperation, he wanted to read “Love Dare” and watch “Fire Proof”. I felt like I was being punched in the gut. Why now after putting me through so much and begging for seperation? The games are so cruel. I question myself for doing that, nonetheless. So unsure of what is real with him I am even afraid to accept such gestures, and I am desperatley trying to learn how. It is more like a clenching, a flinching feeling. A deep distrust after years of walking on egg shells.

I might be wrong to refuse the book and movie in the meantime, but I said no b/c I needed a break from all this pain and he tends to be more quick fix/fantasy driven and the movie seemed like perhaps not a good idea. Our counselor said the same, that it would be better to focus on the real problems. He is extremes; I am consistent. (He knows all this- I tell him I want off the roller coaster!)

I know I am rambling, just helps to have this outlet.
 
Agggh, more prayers for you!

Would he try Retrouvaille? retrouvaille.org/ It is Catholic.

Get some good books from Catholic counselors re marriage. First that come to mind are the Popcacks exceptionalmarriages.com/ second is Fulton Sheen’s “Three to Get Married”.

There was a big debate about “Fireproof” here awhile back, and I don’t want to open that can of worms again. I’ll just say that as a Catholic, I watched it and feel it is overtly Protestant and does not speak to the Sacramental nature of marriage.

Perhaps if he will attend retrouvaille, then, you could agree to watch the movie with him after? If he wants a suggestion of something he can do for you, suggest www.e5men.org.

Know that God can heal marriages. It takes prayer and commitment. Stick with a Catholic counselor, keep in mind that your marriage is a sacrament, and know that separation is not the end of marriage.
 
Let’s suggest that it is not a husband but a sibling … can be just as bad, I know!

Some people may just think it is an older sister type of sibling problem! So … maybe your husband’s problem is more than just a marital problem! If it involves abusive language, accusations, hidden envy that makes one respond by being less than you are … a long list that may also mean a psychological disorder.

Does he seem to be narcissistic when in the company of friends and family? Does he have any strange beliefs, that are not Christian: false philosophies but doesn’t like to hear the Lord speaking to him through you or other religious folk … or just movies sometimes you can tell what they are irritated with? Or, laughing at sad things?! Does he complain that it is the fault of the government or the rich for his problems, but is tired of working? Is he overconcerned for his health, but is unconcerned with others’? Does he find fault with your Catholic friends, yet trust strangers for advice? Maybe he is paranoid, a hypochondriac?

I don’t want the answers. A person who has these problems has problems that religion could resolve, if the person would allow God into their lives.

I’ve found that my sister is better left to others’ company. They see her less frequently, and, she is on her best behavior … whatever that is. The truth is, she is not well loved anymore, when she once had everyone’s favor, but, she when she does something nice, I praise her …

You didn’t mention if he might hurt someone else. He might.
 
*(((lifeisamazing))) I’m so sorry!

I think your husband sounds borderline verbally abusive…maybe not so borderline. Abusers, whether verbal or physical, typically keep the people they abuse, off kilter, thus your feeling of walking on egg shells, bracing for the bad guy to enter in. The only way your marriage will EVER work, is if he gets counseling, and CHOOSES to change his ways. If you stay as is, you’ll have a heart attack before long. That is no way to live. Your husband needs serious help. Most abusers learn their behaviors from growing up–how was his dad towards his mom?

I dated someone who sounds virtually identical to your husband, back in college. I never knew which end was up…and one day I said to myself…why are you putting up with this nonsense? Love doesn’t hurt like this. Marriage has its natural ups and downs, but a spouse shouldn’t be afraid to voice opinions, or afraid to speak up about anything. That is not a marriage, you’re in a dictatorship. Sure, he can be nice…but on his terms, when he wants to. He needs help. More than the Love Dare book. More than watching a movie. That won’t help get at the root of why he is verbally cruel and abusive to you. Love Dare is for marriages that are relatively healthy…not going to repair years of abuse and damage done to you. I hate to sound pessimistic, but I have the book, and my dh and I love it–but my dh or I are not verbally abusive to one another. I’m not walking on egg shells. I totally get where you are with this…and he needs to get SERIOUS help. He is only throwing you another line…hoping you won’t leave. Then when you stay, he will put the book down…and here we go again. He is cruel to you for a reason. He needs to get at that reason, or he won’t change. I’m so sorry, for your pain. It takes me back to dating that guy in college. 😦

I hope that your marriage can overcome all of this…but again, he must seek counseling. For his own sake, and health, as well. It’s very unhealthy to hurt people on a regular basis…

I will be praying for you and your marriage! *
 
I am constantly bracing for the bad guy, and so even when the good guy is there I don’t believe it. I know this hurts him too.
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No. The good guy is not there. Trust your instincts. His heart isn’t hurt because you see through him. His ego is hurt. Big difference.

No, he’s not curable. God can’t cure him. Because he is his own God and there is no room for the real one to operate in his heart, soul and life.

To be cured, one must have some humility. He has none. His attempts to get you to counseling or to see a movie are manipulative.

Your child cannot grow up in this environment. It will warp your baby. Do you want your baby to get the same treatment from a parent you get from your husband?

Your husband is a narcissist. Just from what you have said, I can tell you I was married to him too. So were a lot of people here. I’ll go find the thread. Read it and realize what you have to do before he makes you lose yourself entirely.

The verbal abuse will become physical. Let me guess, he was a great guy till the pregnancy came along. Then when you had your own needs for him to fulfill he “changed.” And since the baby came and your attention was focused on someone besides him it has gotten worse.

Normal people and people who have never dealt with a narcissist personality disorder have no clue what you are going through.

He uses threats of divorce to control you and make you cry. Then when you were ready to walk out and that weapon didn’t work anymore, he changed tactics to make you do something else so he could keep the control. This is called “crazymaking” where you stop having a clue what is real or what is not. No, trust cannot be rebuilt with him because he is not trustworthy. He gets his psychological energy from seeing you fearful and hurt. When you are happy, do you notice how he has to say something subtle to make you upset or hurt? Even a little comment while you are trying on clothes “Are you gaining weight?” Just a subtle thing like that and you begin to look at yourself negatively and it ruins the moment or the day.

Leave before he cracks your neck or something. That day is coming. A man who discusses bedroom details with strangers is not a worthy husband or role model for your baby. Think about this. Do you want your son growing up with a father who discusses his mother and sex with strangers?
 
escapeabuse.com/npd.pdf

Here is your guidebook should you choose to stay with one of these NPDs. Or should you choose to leave, you will still have to deal with him. The baby he is probably ignoring right now will become the most precious person in his world if he sees a chance to make your life hell in a divorce.

I’m presently trying to keep my ex from completely destroying my teenagers through his games and neglect and using them to hurt me. They never stop. They see life as a “you win/I lose” proposition.

Your big crime in dealing with your husband is to think you have any rights. That he is not the most wonderful person in the world. How dare you.
 
*That is sooo true, liberano. "Crazymaking.’’ I remember reading about that way back when, and it’s absolutely spot on.

I remember when I was dating that college guy…and I’d laugh over something…or be happy. And he would say…‘what are you so happy about?’ And then, I would stop smiling, because if HE didn’t think something was funny, no one should be laughing. Then, if I was sad about something…he would say…‘what are you so sad about?’ I would just have to remain like…middle ground…no emotions. And even then, he would say something subtle as you put it, to get a reaction. After a few months of dating, the verbal went to physical…he would get right up close to me, I would be inching away, and he would push his chest into me…shove me…I finally said…enough is enough. I am better than this. He stalked me for a while…he couldn’t believe I just ignored him. His letters, phone calls…never replied. With God, all things are possible…and God gave me the strength to find my own dignity again. I’ve often wondered if he ever changed. 🤷

I can’t imagine being married to a man like this…I dated one, and it was horrible. I don’t think that men like this are incapable of change, but it takes a lot more than a book and a movie to do it. I totally agree that he is just manipulating the situation, by offering to view the book and movie, when in reality…he won’t. It’s just a ploy lifeisamazing, to get you to let your guard down. Control is what he likes and ‘needs,’ and when you have it…he needs to up the ante.

We are not trying to make it sound like your husband is a villain. He probably has childhood hurts and visions, that have made him who he is…but he most certainly did not learn how to be a good and loving husband, because he is not. He has moments, but they are at his whim. Again, he needs serious SERIOUS counseling to get to the heart of why he is abusive.

I would listen to Liberano, and read other threads in here…many woman have been or are where you are…and they might help you to at least see, you’re not alone here.

God bless, and good luck to you.*
 
Yes, he is the villain. I’m not going to sugarcoat it. He chooses to victimize the people who trust him most.

I don’t care what kind of childhood someone had. I pity the child. I loathe the adult who uses that as an excuse to destroy another child’s innocence and the lives of people who love them.

No, they can’t be cured. For an NPD to get help, they have to “crash.” Which consists of their whole sense of self being beaten into the ground by job loss or family loss. A competent shrink will first have to redeem their sense of self worth in order to treat the underlying disorder. But when you build an NPD back up, they feel great about themselves again, which is the only problem they see, and they quit treatment without addressing the whole underlying problem of why they think they are the center of the universe.

They are rarely curable. But they can do a world of damage to the people around them.

There are two things you can do to them to really make them mad. Ignore them… which they think negative attention is better than none, or LAUGH at them.

They hate being mocked.
 
*What is also sad too, Liberano…is that they perceive themselves as being mocked…when they aren’t. 🤷 *
 
My friend is a paralegal, and when I recently told her some of the things I was going through, she instantly said Narcissist/Masogenist (sp?). She didn’t elaborate, but it is funny that a couple others have said that too.

The thing I read that was strange- that he never will laugh at your jokes or laugh when you are laughing. He does that to me all the time- he never laughs at my jokes but then I find out how he told everyone else cuz he thought it was funny. :confused:

I have, lost my sense of humor, like the other thread spoke about. I used to be so quick witted and clever- sometimes that side of me wakes up when I am chatting privately with a friend and I totally suprise myself. The bad and ironic part of that is, he acts like Mr. Ultra Wonderful in public and I am just a glazed over shell and so people he talks to tend to side with him b/c I appear so withdrawn.😊 Plus, I am watching him and thinking how phony! (The neighbors sometimes stop to chat with him when he is in the yard, and he is so cordial and helpful with their lawns— then he comes in and blows up calling this one a lazy u know what and racial slurs and why can’t they just leave him the you know what alone?) They are clueless.
 
Lifeisamazing, what is your plan? Do you know what you need to do?
 
dulcissima said:
Lifeisamazing, what is your plan? Do you know what you need to do?
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Looking into legal seperation, together, next week. He has said he and I will just sit down and write it up, but I am nervous about that prospect. I have called some lawyers and mediators that do “Collaborative Law” which is divorce with dignity. I do not want attorneys making this worse to line pockets. But, the cost is worrying me, though I may need someone to look out for me b/c I am just so tired. Ofcourse, when it comes to my DS’s well being, I can still have endless endurance in that department, but for myself, not so much.

Then I will continue counseling w/Christian counselor, whom I really appreciate.

I am still yearning for the marriage I thought I had, and I still want to have faith that he and I can heal, grow, etc. At the same time, so much damage has been done. Time and seperation will tell.
 
A woman needs to be financially independent and she should make sure that the children do not suffer from the breakup. Be careful that you don’t become what you abhor in your husband. I really don’t know if my sister’s problems stem from her childhood, for, I love the folks! It may have been from her marriage, or, it might have come from her special treatment when she was going to be a nun. The only thing that I know for sure is that I am in her way, wherever she is headed!
 
Lifeisamazing said:
Looking into legal seperation, together, next week. He has said he and I will just sit down and write it up, but I am nervous about that prospect. I have called some lawyers and mediators that do “Collaborative Law” which is divorce with dignity. I do not want attorneys making this worse to line pockets. But, the cost is worrying me, though I may need someone to look out for me b/c I am just so tired. Ofcourse, when it comes to my DS’s well being, I can still have endless endurance in that department, but for myself, not so much.

Then I will continue counseling w/Christian counselor, whom I really appreciate.

I am still yearning for the marriage I thought I had, and I still want to have faith that he and I can heal, grow, etc. At the same time, so much damage has been done. Time and seperation will tell.
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You will not have any luck with writing it up together or with a collaborative divorce if your husband truly is a narcissist.

Please start keeping a journal of the things that your husband says and does, the insults, the threats, the outrageous demands. This will be useful for court, but I think that the biggest value will be in helping you to see your marriage and your husband for what they truly are. You are very tentative and unsure right now, but if you could see things for what they really are, it would help you find the direction that you need to be heading in.

Have you talked to any family members, your parents or your siblings? You will need their support.

My recommendation is to talk to an attorney on your own without your husband knowing about it. That way you will get a true picture on what your support should look like and whether or not your husband will need to cover your attorney’s fees.

My ex has been bitterly angry about having to pay support. All of the demands that he made for the separation and divorce were not based on reality. Anything that wasn’t ordered by the court and was left for us to agree upon has been a huge ordeal.

My cousin recently divorced a narcissist. The collaborative divorce process took over a year and cost nearly $30k because he couldn’t agree to the most basic things and made some pretty incredible demands, for example he thought her “taste” was his intellectual property and that gave him rights to many of her personal things. She would have been much better off just having things decided by the court. Paying a lawyer by the hour when you are dealing with someone who will agree to nothing is not the way to go.

You might also want to talk to a domestic violence center. You are in an abusive marriage, but both verbally and emotionally abusive, and now with threats. Don’t hesitate to call the police about any threats he makes in the future.
 
dulcissima said:
You might also want to talk to a domestic violence center. You are in an abusive marriage, but both verbally and emotionally abusive, and now with threats. Don’t hesitate to call the police about any threats he makes in the future.
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I think that your post is very good, and I want the original poster to know that I, personally, am not encouraging her to divorce. She cannot expect that from anyone here for two very good reasons: 1. We are only hearing from one side and 2. Catholics are pro-marriage and pro-family. I can add that my Pastor specifically encourages retrouvaille. Separation and divorce are different things, yet, other people may consider them quite similarly. I never encourage divorce. I think that divorce is viral and I won’t be a party to it. Analyzing another person’s behavior is another thing alltogether, for me. One sometimes wonders what one might do, and leaving a person who is abusing you … physically leaving, not legally mind you, is obviously something that may have to be done. If you go someplace, a shelter or to your parents’, a retreat, or some place other than looking for another man with some girlfriends, you can spend some time trying to come to terms with your choices. I hope that you understand that for some, for me, it is a very good day, with a baby being born in our family, and divorce is the furthest thing from my mind. I think that I would have made any marriage work, but, I am not married. I guess I trust that people are basically good, or that God would protect me from a very bad marriage. Lack of prayer is a huge problem in people’s lives, and, that might be why we end up circumstances that are not worthy of us.
 
“I think that I would have made any marriage work, but, I am not married.”

I was married for 17 years. My biggest fault was that I tried too hard and for too long. I was too understanding and too forgiving. That has cost my children. I only left after my priest gave me a deadline for doing so. I was only obedient because it happened in confession and I had prayed to Mary before hand to help me make a good confession and promised her that I would obey whatever the priest told me. Leaving my husband was the last thing I had expected.

A separation proceeds a divorce. Once you understand the nature of a narcissist, of an abuser, and that rehabilitation is not something you should stake your life and the lives of the children that were entrusted to you, then you will understand why divorce is what is needed, as terrible as it is.

Once upon a time the Church used to count on the repentance and rehabilitation of abusers. This is no longer the case now that we have a better understanding of the nature of the abuser.

It is quite a different thing to be a sibling to a narcissist than it is to be the spouse to one.
 
Lifeisamazing said:
I am a cradle Catholic, and he is a non-practicing Christian. He doesn’t agree with much of Catholicism, but that has improved b/c a man he works with is Catholic and he respects him. (He would go to church with me sometimes but it was tough as he would make fun of things during mass. He didn’t do this until after we were married.) He did go talk with my priest at my priest’s request but I think a lot of that was about feeling threatened that the church was my safe place. I did tell him prior to marriage that any children would be Catholic or no marriage. My son was baptized and will be brought up Catholic. I told him that I want us to let go of secular pressures and grow in God and help each other be holy. I told him that I would like us to rebuild on that foundation with new focus. He is more secularly driven and his goal is “I just wanna be happy” which means anything that hurts gets struck down. My goal is “I want to grow in Christ”. That means sacrifice and yes, sometimes painful self evaluation and honesty and humility.

After months of him putting down any attempt at healing, growth, counseling, fighting me all the way, I did finally agree to seperate after he ignored me for two days. Only after I granted him seperation, he wanted to read “Love Dare” and watch “Fire Proof”. I felt like I was being punched in the gut. Why now after putting me through so much and begging for seperation? The games are so cruel. I question myself for doing that, nonetheless. So unsure of what is real with him I am even afraid to accept such gestures, and I am desperatley trying to learn how. It is more like a clenching, a flinching feeling. A deep distrust after years of walking on egg shells.

I might be wrong to refuse the book and movie in the meantime, but I said no b/c I needed a break from all this pain and he tends to be more quick fix/fantasy driven and the movie seemed like perhaps not a good idea. Our counselor said the same, that it would be better to focus on the real problems. He is extremes; I am consistent. (He knows all this- I tell him I want off the roller coaster!)

I know I am rambling, just helps to have this outlet.
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Lifeisamazing,
His behavior is VERY typical of a controller/abuser. You’re VERY fortunate that physical violence hasn’t occured yet. If it does keep in mind that it probably won’t show…that’s a trait. Also, he’ll be an angel and perfect husband to EVERYONE else. When alone with you he’s 100% differant…right? If the cops ever have to show up at your house I assure you he’ll be calm and soothing and YOU will appear irrational. BE CAREFUL. Save your marrige later if you can…but for now…file for divorce/separation. In the temp aggreement have the laywer give you the house. You will know exactly at what time he’s being served. While that’s going on get some help to change the locks and get away for a day. If he breaks in while you are away he can be arrested, which will look VERY bad in court. In Michigan you have 90 days in which to retract it and thus to try to reconcile. If I’m not mistaken the Catholic Church takes a very firm stance on abusive marriages. Keep us updated on this POST. Well pray for you and your husband.
 
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