Grounds for Annulment?

[rwoehmke]

Yes, but is it wrong to communicate what God’s word says on this matter? Does your authority carry more or equal weight with the Scripture? Although I disagree with the RC, a truth from Scripture cannot be abrogated by any authority of men, no matter how God ordained they claim to be. Scripture sets very clear parameters on this and I don’t see why any Catholic would take issue with counsel from Scripture.

The problem is not with the scripture, but with how it is to be interpreted. There s no general agreement among Christians as to exactly what the “except for adultery” means. The translation from Greek or Latin does not absolutely mean “adultery” but may a different meaning. In any case the Scripture does not in any way indicate that the divorced person is allowed to remarry even if the divorce is justified.

 

[marci]

Job2007, I am sorry for your situation. I don’t know how old your children are, it they are still young (ie living in the home). Then I would avoid divorce at all cost. Unless there is physical or serious mental abuse, I would not consider separating either.

Marriage is for better or worse. Our understanding of things, marital expectations, our faith, love, etc., changes as we mature. No one is at 40 what they were at 20. I venture to say that most of us didn’t REALLY know what we were getting into when we got married.

There are couples that obstain from relations due to medical issues, but I do believe that it can be cruel to withhold relations from your spouse, if that is something that they need to feel connected in the relationship. However, I think that it would be selfish to leave one’s spouse and children because of this.

You said you have sought the help of priests. Have you gone to marital therapy? Perhaps your wife is dealing with issues which have left her feeling cold toward you in this reguard. Is her lack of want of intimacy due to fear of pregnancy? Does she harbor feelings of animosity toward you or the marriage?

Try to find a good christian theropist, and perhaps take a look at some possible underlying issues.

As far as the condom thing, for you to use one means you would be using ABC, so either she uses something (diaphram) or you remain abstinant.

As far as the abortion thing. Out of the question, this is the situation in which I would use the ultimatim of divorse. And depending on the age of your children, I would tell them why.

FYI Divorce alone does not preclude one from receiving the Sacrament. It is only when one enters into another marriage without an annullment that they must abstain.

I will pray for you. There are many of us for which our marriage is our cross. Offer all of these sufferings up to Christ. And offer your prayers for your wife during the Consecration at Mass. Our offerings are among those of the saints and the choir of angels at that powerful moment. I do this for the conversion of my husband, and the spiritual protection of my children at every mass.
He hasn’t converted yet, but I trust and hope in the Holy Spirit. I will pray that He will fill you with His Hope.

 

[bobzills]

In any case the Scripture does not in any way indicate that the divorced person is allowed to remarry even if the divorce is justified.

Questions have been raised concerning whether the Catholic annulment process is a legal device designed to get around this Scriptural command. In the USA, just about any marriage can be annulled on very light grounds, and the statistics show that the number of annulments approved by the RCC has increased dramatically since Vatican II.

 

[1ke]

Yes, but is it wrong to communicate what God’s word says on this matter?

Your interpretation of Scripture is inaccurate. Since you are not Catholic, you do not understand the Sacramental nature of Marriage. You are correct that a valid Sacramental marriage cannot be dissolved. However, a marriage that is invalid was not a marriage at all. That is what the nullity process investigates.

Does your authority carry more or equal weight with the Scripture?

Yes. It does.

The Catholic Church is given infallible authority to teach by Christ. The Church cannot err in faith and morals.

Although I disagree with the RC, a truth from Scripture cannot be abrogated by any authority of men, no matter how God ordained they claim to be. Scripture sets very clear parameters on this and I don’t see why any Catholic would take issue with counsel from Scripture.

Because you lack understanding of how to interpret Scripture, the Sacramental nature of Marriage, and the purpose of the nullity examination.

 

[1ke]

Questions have been raised concerning whether the Catholic annulment process is a legal device designed to get around this Scriptural command. In the USA, just about any marriage can be annulled on very light grounds, and the statistics show that the number of annulments approved by the RCC has increased dramatically since Vatican II.

Bobzills, Online Harvest, etc,

I think we need to respect the very real pain this man is in and not turn this into an intellectual debate on scripture and annulments.

If you want to debate this topic, let’s start a thread on that.

This man has come to ask for advice and prayer, not debate.

 

[kage_ar]

Both of us were Catholic at the time. The fact that contraception is a sin was never taught to either of us. Sadly, many Catholics in my generation were never taught this.

That is strange to me. I grew up knowing no Catholics, but the fact that the Catholic Church did not believe in birth control was common knowledge. Heck, even Monty Python troupe had a song about it! It was in books, in movies, just one of those cultural things one knew about Catholics

 

[1ke]

That is strange to me. I grew up knowing no Catholics, but the fact that the Catholic Church did not believe in birth control was common knowledge. Heck, even Monty Python troupe had a song about it! It was in books, in movies, just one of those cultural things one knew about Catholics

Yes, that is my first reaction also. I knew it and I was not Catholic until 1992.

BUT–

Recently DH and I have come to understand much better what was happening during the 60s-80s regarding catechesis and seminary formation-- and the influence of pop psychology.

Many Catholics were led to believe contraception was OK and that the Church would soon change her teachings. Many books were written with a relativist approach to morality.

Our eyes were truly opened when we cleaned out the book shelves in our parish-- we had a book give-away of a bunch of old books. Everything written in the 50s and before was solid. We literally had to throw out almost every book written after 1968.

I couldn’t believe it as I read through all those books (I wasn’t about to have a free book giveaway with any heretical material slipping out the door). I originally thought I might have to toss a few books. I tossed close to a 100. It was unbelievable.

So, the “average Catholic” going to a CATHOLIC bookstore or a CATHOLIC school was likely exposed to this “catholic” garbage.

It’s a very deeply rooted problem.

 

[PaulinVA]

You might want to take a look at the percentage of Catholic couples who beleive that it is all right to use ABC. If Catholics are taught that it is wrong to use ABC, why do so many Catholic couples use ABC and feel good about themselves?

I think I am right in the overall thrust of this, if not individual facts:

I think that at the time of Vatican II there was some confusion over whether a church panel was going to recommend allowing ABC and what that meant until they actually did. There was some teaching about using one’s conscience until the panel published it’s findings.

Well, the panel recommended allowing ABC, the Pope determined that ABC was always wrong, and that Catholics should not use ABC. Generations of Catholics still believe it’s a matter of conscience, not a church teaching that you can’t use ABC.

 

[LeahInancsi]

That is strange to me. I grew up knowing no Catholics, but the fact that the Catholic Church did not believe in birth control was common knowledge. Heck, even Monty Python troupe had a song about it! It was in books, in movies, just one of those cultural things one knew about Catholics

I have to agree. Either someone wasn’t listening during Catechism (CCD) classes or didn’t want to accept what they were told.

 

[briang72]

I was married in the Catholic Church many years ago. At the time, my wife and I were not aware of the Church’s teachings about artificial contraception or conjugal obligation to each other (that’s right - neither were taught in our pre-cana course).

We have since learned about them and I would like to follow the Church’s teaching. My wife strongly disagrees. She insists that I wear a condom and that, even under those conditions, conjugal relations are limited to less than once per week - often less frequently than that. Her reasoning is that she just doesn’t enjoy it anymore. In spite of over a year of prayer and consultations with priests and theologans, she is not budging on the issues. She is quite content to go on without conjugal relations, whereas I feel very empty without them (both for the marriage and me personally).

I feel like our marriage is slowly dying over this. In my view neither of us knew about the church’s teachings on these matters, so we did not get into the marriage properly understanding the commitment to each other and God. Although I now understand them and want to live them, she does not and thus never did nor intended to properly commit to the relationship.

Is this situation grounds for an annulment?

I feel your pain. Had a similar situation. My marriage ended in divorce over it. I am awaiting the Appelate Court’s decision on the invalidity of my marriage. Where my situation differs greatly from yours is that I have no children. I hope you and your wife can come to an agreement that allows you to follow the Church’s teaching. I know you feel “empty without” the sexual intercourse, but perhaps there is another way you could express your love for her?

I suggest you read some of Christopher West’s books. I just finished “The Love That Satisfies”.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Job 2007,

From the morality angle, your wife basically is in mortal sin – and you are as well if you use the condom. The reason is that you are aiding her by using the artificial contraception device yourself – the condom – to prevent conception.

However, if she contracepts herself – fully knowing the evil it is – but you do not, that isn’t your fault. Eg. If she sterilized herself, etc. then it is her problem and sin – not yours. Hopefully it doesn’t end like that, but that is better than the position you are in now yourself.

Here’s what I am certain of:

1. You could tell her that you will not contracept, that she must do so herself using diaphrams or depo or whatever she wants – by herself – if that is the way things are to be – and that you disagree with it and will not support it in any way – but that you will respect her right to do so herself in order to save the marriage.
   In that way it is not your act which is contraceptive – it is hers, and you have discharged your duty.
2. Even though she is in violation of castii connubi, (on chaste marriage, the papal encyclical) and also St. Paul’s explicit directions over the conjugal duty of the spouses to protect each other from temptations to passion with extramarital affairs, there is nothing you can do there except hope it changes. She is wronging you, and exposing you to occasions of sin, but struggle against it. I am sure God will repay you somehow eventually.
   This is also a measure that she does not love you or trust you, and is part of the emptiness you feel – because she either does not believe you really have the drive and need – or she is angry and using it to get even. If you are able to increase your self control, do so – and that might mean sleeping in another room if you have one, so that you aren’t in close proximity when she decides to change, etc.
3. Men and women are different in their interpretation of what feelings mean, and why sexuality is important. Fear and lack of understanding can be a major hurdle because each of us tends to think the other feels just like them (which is SELDOM true). Once a week, seems quite often – so I would not be upset with that, but if it is a problem for you, see if she would at least be willing to give you affection such as stroking your face, or long hugs, or just sit with you while you read. Normal affection (non-sexual) esp. touches of the face and shoulder rubs can be quite effective in reducing sexual desires which are mostly about bonding anyway – you want to know she still loves you. For some women, talking seems to be very important for the same reason – if you have good communications, try to give her more time that way. If it’s depression in her, nothing may work. Be patient.
4. I know different men have different levels of self restraint and feelings. If your wife is purposely doing things to excite and manipulate your feelings, that can seriously intensify sexual drive – you might consider talking to your doctor about anti-depressants which can reduce your susceptibility to manipulation. Don’t ever let them use sexuality as a weapon – it only gets worse and destroys everything – believe me. And sometimes they confuse getting a reaction out of you with their “beauty” or whatever.

Hang in there I’m praying for you – and perhaps, just perhaps, things will improve. I see that your wife has a lot of fear and anger. I can’t answer the annulment question, but anything you can do to reduce the fear will help some.

The bigger issue is this – could you really live with yourself if you married someone else. I know I couldn’t.

I know there is a limit, but try.

I’ll say my chaplet for you tonight.

 

[Job2007]

I have to agree. Either someone wasn’t listening during Catechism (CCD) classes or didn’t want to accept what they were told.

I can’t believe that I am being insulted like this. My RCIA leaders and the priest running it purposefully witheld this teaching from me. The priest that officiated our marriage did not bring it up either. My parish priests never bring it up during homilies. I have had long discussions with each of them about this, and they have now admitted and apologized for purposefully witholding the truth. I have stated this already.

 

[1ke]

I can’t believe that I am being insulted like this. My RCIA leaders and the priest running it purposefully witheld this teaching from me. The priest that officiated our marriage did not bring it up either. My parish priests never bring it up during homilies. I have had long discussions with each of them about this, and they have now admitted and apologized for purposefully witholding the truth. I have stated this already.

Job-- ignore it.

You are striving to live a holy life and people are going all over the place on tangents on this thread. It is the nature of internet forums, unfortunately.

There is no easy answer for you, and I’m sorry about the situation you are in. It’s beyond cruel on the part of your wife. I hope your parish priest can help guide you.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Does it matter what Scripture says about separating a married couple? The only grounds Scripture says, is if the partner committed adultery or the partner leaves you because they no longer want to be with a Christian (because of your faith).

Careful. If you get separated for the wrong reason, Scripture says you’d be committing adultery if you had another partner. And this is true no matter what any priest would declare about an annulment.

This is not completely true, according to Church teaching. If the marriage is declared null, it is as though there never had been a valid marriage – thus, both parties would be free to “remarry”, because they had never been married before.

And no priest has the authority to merely “declare” this – it requires an arduous investigation by a diocesan marriage tribunal.

Peace,
Dante

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Questions have been raised concerning whether the Catholic annulment process is a legal device designed to get around this Scriptural command. In the USA, just about any marriage can be annulled on very light grounds, and the statistics show that the number of annulments approved by the RCC has increased dramatically since Vatican II.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

That the number of annulments has risen does not mean that the process has been watered down or abused; rather, it is more likely that the number of invalid marriages has risen.

Peace,
Dante

 

[LeahInancsi]

I can’t believe that I am being insulted like this. My RCIA leaders and the priest running it purposefully witheld this teaching from me. The priest that officiated our marriage did not bring it up either. My parish priests never bring it up during homilies. I have had long discussions with each of them about this, and they have now admitted and apologized for purposefully witholding the truth. I have stated this already.

I find that hard to believe. In RCIA, we spent an entire class on NFP with a NFP practitioner giving a presentation. I think the priest should have been safe in assuming that you had a certain level of knowledge when he met with you. When I was in RCIA, I bought every book I could get my hands on and read as many of them as I could and am still reading two years later.

More than your ignorance about Catholicism is the fact that you would so careless break up your children’s home. That is abominable. I don’t even have the words to explain how I feel. I know what it’s like to grow up without a father. A father who left me because he was more interested in his own wants than my needs.

 

[1ke]

I find that hard to believe. In RCIA, we spent an entire class on NFP with a NFP practitioner giving a presentation.

Leah, really, I encourage you to stop insinuating that the OP is lieing.

It is NOT hard to believe. Your experience in RCIA is not a universal experience. Clearly the OP did not receive this teaching in RCIA, and NEITHER DID I.

I attended RCIA as a 25 year old and not one time was it mentioned in RCIA. Fortunately for me, I wasn’t married at the time nor for 15 years after. Plenty of time for me to get educated on the subject.

I think the priest should have been safe in assuming that you had a certain level of knowledge when he met with you.

He should have, would have, could have… but, he didn’t and he’s admitted to purposely not touching the subject in their marriage preparation. How much more clear can the OP be on this?

When I was in RCIA, I bought every book I could get my hands on and read as many of them as I could and am still reading two years later.

Good for you. That is not everyone’s path and everyone’s pace. The OP has mentioned studying and learning more about the faith and this is where he discovered the teaching regarding contraception.

More than your ignorance about Catholicism is the fact that you would so careless break up your children’s home. That is abominable.

Wow! What I find abominable is your assumption that the OP would “carelessly” break up his home. His wife, in fact, is the one driving the marriage into a breakdown. He, on the other hand, seems to be doing all he can to save the marriage. His wife refuses all counseling and has stated she will kill any child she conceives by him! Uh-- I’d throw her to the curb faster than he seems willing to.

Secondly, your attack on the OPs knowledge of Catholicism is unwarranted. It’s just plain ugly of you.

I don’t even have the words to explain how I feel.

Clearly. Your words are coming across as quite harsh and judgmental-- and condescending and rude too.

I know what it’s like to grow up without a father. A father who left me because he was more interested in his own wants than my needs.

Personal hurt sometimes colors our ability to be unbiased. I think that is the case here. You are projecting your anger at your father onto the OP, whom you do not know.

I too come from a divorced family full of unpleasantness from the time I was 4 years old. I’ve made my peace with it. I hope you will one day be able to do the same.

 

[Phemie]

I am not buying this.
since Catholic teaching in this area has been debated loud and long by dissenters, who have done even more to propagate this teaching through their attacks than orthodox clergy have done in promoting it, it is hard for me to believe a Catholic who has received standard RE and attends Mass regularly never heard this. also the proper forum for discussing matrimony and other sacraments is liturgy and sacraments. this is the forum for discussing the morality of contraception.

Not sure where and when you grew up, but I came of age in Canada in the early 70s and the only time I ever heard about contraception was when a priest talked to us and told us that contraception was up to each person’s individual conscience. Also didn’t have to have any marriage preparation to get married back in 1975. So no, it’s not hard to believe what the OP wrote.

 

[JRKH]

I have not read all of the replies so this may have already been addressed but…

The annulment process looks at the validity of the origonal marriage and not at changes that take place after the marriage. Having said that, I would suggest that you may have a chance at an anullment based on your poor formation as regards the duties and obligations of marriage.

This link
landru.i-link-2.net/shnyves/grounds_annul.htm
may contain some information to help.
I cannot stress enough that you should consult a Priest or Deacon on your circumstance for proper guidance.

James

 

[Phemie]

I find that hard to believe. In RCIA, we spent an entire class on NFP with a NFP practitioner giving a presentation. I think the priest should have been safe in assuming that you had a certain level of knowledge when he met with you. When I was in RCIA, I bought every book I could get my hands on and read as many of them as I could and am still reading two years later.

More than your ignorance about Catholicism is the fact that you would so careless break up your children’s home. That is abominable. I don’t even have the words to explain how I feel. I know what it’s like to grow up without a father. A father who left me because he was more interested in his own wants than my needs.

Do you realize that there are couples today who do an entire marriage preparation where birth control is NEVER brought up? Forget about NFP, the priest does the preparation and since he personally doesn’t have a problem with ABC and figures that no matter what he says about ABC the couple is not going to stop using it, he just avoids the topic altogether.