Growth in celebration of the Extraordinary Form: Promises or Perils?

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Every EF I’ve been to consisted of only English-speakers as far as I can tell.

Before the OF, the Germans had their EF, the Italians had their’s, etc. It’s completely understandable. Italians don’t understand German homilies.
Where there were/are homilies, that’s been my observation too. At one EF I went to, half of the homily was in Spanish, the other half English. Thus that was almost the mix of the congregation there. It didn’t hurt to have the Latin-Spanish missalettes there either.
 
I feel like I’m watching the same sacrifice as the first Christians did when the Lord did it before them for the first time. It reminds me that Christ’s sacrifice is one for all time, transcending time and space.

I also am fascinated with the history of the early Church, and to me, I feel that the OF hearkens back to the practice of the first Christians, when they gathered in “house churches” and sat around a table to celebrate the agape feasts (mentioned in Jude).
I asked the question on another thread and no one answered. Granted the early Church regarded the Mass as a meal, a commemoration of the Last Supper if you will. But at what point did the Church regard the Mass to be the Holy Sacrifice as well?
 

I’d say – you’d need to work within the Traditionalist community – to root out “toxic” Traditionalism-- that “fruits” the type of thinking below. This does not do the EF any favors.

“How to explain what is wrong with the Novus Ordo”
Do you mean that I need to fix everything that’s wrong with traditionalists before you’ll give us the benefit of the doubt? Would you want trads to apply the same to you, and mistrust you until you’ve fixed the manifold problems with today’s average parish or Catholic school?

I do what I can to lead a good example, but I have my own spiritual faults to work on, and it’s not really my place to tell other laity what to do. I can give my opinion if people ask, but that’s about it.
 
And to be honest, and I say this with as much humility and desire to avoid sounding like it’s a competition as I can manage in text, I feel the same about the OF. To me, when the priest raises the Blessed Sacrament before me and says, “this is my body,” I feel like I’m watching the same sacrifice as the first Christians did when the Lord did it before them for the first time. It reminds me that Christ’s sacrifice is one for all time, transcending time and space.

I also am fascinated with the history of the early Church, and to me, I feel that the OF hearkens back to the practice of the first Christians, when they gathered in “house churches” and sat around a table to celebrate the agape feasts (mentioned in Jude). The Roman catacomb image of the chalice being raised by one figure at a table where others sat also reminds me of what I’m witnessing in the OF liturgy in my own vernacular tongue. Now, I may be totally imagining that parallelism into my own liturgical preferences, I grant you that! But it’s a real desire in my heart to that the liturgy of which I’m a part reflects the early Church. It concerns me, and I admit to taking umbrage, when someone asserts that the EF liturgy is somehow a truer representation of what it means to be Catholic.

I think we all look for I think we can both agree that fundamentally, it’s about our Lord.

I can appreciate that. It seems to me that people who self-select into the EF “way of life” are, on average, doing so because they are seeking a more authentic way to live their lives for Christ. But I would simply hope that, unlike the RadTrad crowd, that orthodox Trads can also see that there are plenty of us seeking the same within the OF.

Amen!
I think we are basically on the same page. “It’s good for brethren to dwell in peace,” isn’t it?

I can understand your position about the OF and the early Church because I felt the same way when I first embraced my faith. I guess I would say – and as you put it, not to be competitive – that I transitioned from the OF to the EF in part because I discovered more that was authentically ancient in the TLM, that was still there through all the Middle Ages, Rennaissance, etc (not that I don’t love those ages too) than I found in the OF. In other words, the EF might not resemble the ancient Mass more closely than the OF as a whole (not that we know much about the ancient Mass), but whatever is ancient in it was not pulled from a history book by liturgists in the 1960s, it was actually put there by ancient Christians and left there by all the generations between them and us. It’s part of an unbroken chain.

Well, that’s my 2 cents anyway.
 
Do you mean that I need to fix everything that’s wrong with traditionalists before you’ll give us the benefit of the doubt**? Would you want trads to apply the same to you, and mistrust you until you’ve fixed the manifold problems with today’s average parish or Catholic school?**

I do what I can to lead a good example, but I have my own spiritual faults to work on, and it’s not really my place to tell other laity what to do. I can give my opinion if people ask, but that’s about it.

Actually – all it takes – is reading the various “Traditionalist” sites – to see that is what has been happening for a long – long time. I’ve even read where someone will bring up – an improvement in an OF parish – and someone else responds – that it’s like “putting lipstick on a pig”.
 

Actually – all it takes – is reading the various “Traditionalist” sites – to see that is what has been happening for a long – long time. I’ve even read where someone will bring up – an improvement in an OF parish – and someone else responds – that it’s like “putting lipstick on a pig”.
I’ve seen that, too but it’s not my responsibility to apologize on behalf of fellow trads. I’ve already apologized for my own failings in charity, I think.

It sounds like you’re convinced no “bridge building,” as the OP put it, is possible. But I’m not.

I remain convinced (from being inside traditionalism to a large extent) that the nastiness you’ve encountered is a small but vocal minority and doesn’t represent a large proportion of trads.

I hope you give me a chance.
 
I have had a number of long conversations with self-proclaimed “Trads” (traditionalist Catholics) in recent months. My engagement with the local Trad groups has become an endeavor to build bridges between Catholics like me, who honestly prefer the Ordinary Form, and those who gravitate to the Extraordinary Form. I think that relationships, not arguments, are more important in building the Church.

Over that time, I have come to a conception that there are both wonderful opportunities and potentially frightening risks in the growing celebration of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and other prayers that had been eclipsed after Vatican II.

On the upside, I think there are wonderful opportunities for the growing use of the Extraordinary Form to deepen and broaden everyone’s understanding of the liturgy. I am not a Latin speaker. I am only just beginning to explore the theological bases of the Tridentine Rite, and so far it’s been interesting and enlightening.

On the downside, it seems to me that among some Trads (a reasonably large proportion of a reasonably small but growing subgroup within the Church), there is a nascent or implicit rejection of Vatican II. Further, in a number of my conversations, I have detected a notable contempt for parishes that celebrate mass in the Ordinary Form, accompanied by a apologetical stance that draw heavily on pre-conciliar (and possibly counter-conciliar?) theological works. I’ve also heard criticism of the placement of the tabernacle, the use of guitar and piano in liturgical music, and modern vestments.

I can totally understand that preferences vary in liturgical style, but there seems to be much more than that at play – again in a large fraction of what is now a small group. Among this group, there seems to be an unmitigated assertion of the superiority of Tridentine rites and theology, and it is in this phenomena that I see risk for the future of the Church. Not only have I heard criticism of Vatican II, but overt sympathy for schismatic groups like the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) and a willingness to attend their liturgies. When I’ve brought up Sedevacantism (debating them was how I was introduced to Tridentine theology), it seem that the only problem it that many of the Trads I’ve met have is that it denies that there’s a pope… surely, there must also be something wrong with the Sedevacantist claim other than its rejection of the post-conciliar papacy!!!

Does anyone else see a risk here? While I think it is fruitful for every Latin Rite Catholic to experience the Tridentine mass and other services, I am concerned that the mere demographic growth in groups celebrating the Tridentine rite could create greater rifts between Catholics – which is the last thing we need right now. Is my approach of trying to build relationships with my local Trads a good approach? The way I see it, mutual understanding is best achieved when “the other” is seen as a friend and brother, and not a theological rival.
I am confused, how is the EF the source of the problems you’re listing?
 
I’ve seen that, too but it’s not my responsibility to apologize on behalf of fellow trads. I’ve already apologized for my own failings in charity, I think.

It sounds like you’re convinced no “bridge building,” as the OP put it, is possible. But I’m not.

I remain convinced (from being inside traditionalism to a large extent) that the nastiness you’ve encountered is a small but vocal minority and doesn’t represent a large proportion of trads.

I hope you give me a chance.

I’d say – it represents – not a small “vocal minority” – but a growing movement within Traditionalism. A person who is interested in the EF without a derogatory view of the OF-- joins a “Trad” site – what do you think the person will be “fed”. There may be a few that escape – but there will be those that get “hooked”. We also need to keep in mind – the “influence” they can also have at the local level.

What I quoted in my first post in this thread – was the title to a thread in a Traditionalist site – and its objective is to how to turn people against the OF.
 
Sort of. If you look at pre-Vatican II “Gothic” chasebles (our priests use these more than the fiddleback ones) they have a number of differences in shape and structure from the “modern Gothic” ones that jumped out even to me, a layman who can’t even remember the names of all the vestments. It’s kind of like when your MLB team wears their “throwback” jerseys. They’re inspired by the old ones, but they’re still made of synthetic fibers, have short sleeves, and no knickerbockers.

On that note: Go Birds!
The parishes can still get good, orthodox vestments from the dealers in Europe. The only issue is that they are not cheap.

The American vestment dealers use mostly the newer kinds because they don’t sell to just Catholics.

Also, the it’s hard to buy Black, Rose and/or Marian Blue vestments from the American dealers too.
 

I’d say – it represents – not a small “vocal minority” – but a growing movement within Traditionalism. A person who is interested in the EF without a derogatory view of the OF-- joins a “Trad” site – what do you think the person will be “fed”. There may be a few that escape – but there will be those that get “hooked”. We also need to keep in mind – the “influence” they can also have with others they meet at the local level.

What I quoted in my first post in this thread – was the title to a thread in a Traditionalist site – and its objective is to how to turn people against the OF so they will move over to the EF.

Ok – I was not trying to quote myself here-- but to edit my prior post. Must have hit the “quote” instead of “edit” button.
 
I’d say – it represents – not a small “vocal minority” – but a growing movement within Traditionalism. A person who is interested in the EF without a derogatory view of the OF-- joins a “Trad” site – what do you think the person will be “fed”. There may be a few that escape – but there will be those that get “hooked”. We also need to keep in mind – the “influence” they can also have at the local level.

What I quoted in my first post in this thread – was the title to a thread in a Traditionalist site – and its objective is to how to turn people against the OF.
I imagine the “banal fabrication” comment by then-Cardinal Ratzinger had some influence as well?
 

I’d say – it represents – not a small “vocal minority” – but a growing movement within Traditionalism. A person who is interested in the EF without a derogatory view of the OF-- joins a “Trad” site – what do you think the person will be “fed”. There may be a few that escape – but there will be those that get “hooked”. We also need to keep in mind – the “influence” they can also have at the local level.

What I quoted in my first post in this thread – was the title to a thread in a Traditionalist site – and its objective is to how to turn people against the OF.
I think there is a major difference between Traditionalists and traditionalists. Personally, I love both the EF and OF. I would never claim that one is better than the other. They are both equally valid, etc. However, I would like to see more OF Masses using “Kyrie Eleison” and doing at least the Gloria and/or Lamb of God in Latin. That’s how our Cathedral does it on Sunday’s (at least when the Archbishop is saying Mass).

I also prefer that the Lectors, Servers, EHMCs & Cantors wear albs or some other approprate vestment over their clothes. And if their is music during communion, have just the choir or cantor sing something in Latin (Ave Maria) and do not tell the people in the pews where to find the music.

Even if you give me just one Sunday Mass per month, I think that would be nice.

My views are “traditional” with a lower case “t” but I do not consider myself a captial T Traditionalist because I actually like the OF.
 
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Walking_Home:
I’d say – it represents – not a small “vocal minority” – but a growing movement within Traditionalism. A person who is interested in the EF without a derogatory view of the OF-- joins a “Trad” site – what do you think the person will be “fed”. There may be a few that escape – but there will be those that get “hooked”. We also need to keep in mind – the “influence” they can also have at the local level.
What I quoted in my first post in this thread – was the title to a thread in a Traditionalist site – and its objective is to how to turn people against the OF.

I imagine the “banal fabrication” comment by then-Cardinal Ratzinger had some influence as well?
If you mean – the “banal fabrication” which is the liberties/abuses imposed – by some in an OF parish- – can lead others to the EF – yes – that can/does happen. It is a totally different story – when some "Trad"s --actively/purposely have the agenda of turning others against the OF.
 
In other words, the EF might not resemble the ancient Mass more closely than the OF as a whole (not that we know much about the ancient Mass), but whatever is ancient in it was not pulled from a history book by liturgists in the 1960s, it was actually put there by ancient Christians and left there by all the generations between them and us. It’s part of an unbroken chain.
Excellent points, all.

I’ll be responding a bit more on history to one of ProVobis’s comments.
 
I asked the question on another thread and no one answered. Granted the early Church regarded the Mass as a meal, a commemoration of the Last Supper if you will. But at what point did the Church regard the Mass to be the Holy Sacrifice as well?
As far as I can tell, the Eucharist was always considered to be the Holy Sacrifice. 1 Corinthians 11:17++ is the oldest and earliest text we have describing the Eucharist, and in it St. Paul describes the words, “this is my body that is for you” and “this cup is the new covenant in my blood.” To me, it doesn’t get any older than that. And yet those verses describe a Eucharistic service that is more like a meal than the masses we celebrate today. In the epistle, Paul excoriates the wealthy Corinthians (i.e. those that don’t work into the night) for not celebrating it communally with the poorer members of their church. For Paul, the communion is both “vertical” (with Christ) and “horizontal” (with the members of the body of Christ – chapter 12 is all about how the one body of Christ has many members). For Paul, the Christian community “eating” together (which I interpret as partaking in the agape feast) is a point for which he argues ceaselessly (i.e., Galatians 2).

I also see evidence for the Eucharist in the Lord’s prayer. In the Greek of both Matthew and Luke (composed around 75-85 AD), what we translate as “daily bread” is actually “epiousios bread,” which means “trans-substantial bread.” To me, the notion of the bread and wine becoming body and blood of Christ goes back to the very earliest Christian communities, and this is reflected in both Paul and the Gospels.

The Epistle of Jude (verses 10-12) also mentions agape feasts, also noting their abuse through a lack attention to their corporate celebration:
*“10 But these people revile what they do not understand and are destroyed by what they know by nature like irrational animals. 11Woe to them! They followed the way of Cain, abandoned themselves to Balaam’s error for the sake of gain, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are blemishes on your love feasts, as they carouse fearlessly and look after themselves. They are waterless clouds blown about by winds, fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead and uprooted.”
*
Jude is thought to have been written in the late first or early second century.

Agape feasts are mentioned in the Ignatius of Antioch’s letter to the church at Smyrna (again, in modern Turkey, early second century):
"It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love (agape) feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

Pliny the Younger’s letter to the Emperor Trajan (ca. 111-112 AD) describes early Christian worship. To me, it is notable for documenting two separate liturgies, but also in describing the Eucharistic celebration as employing “ordinary and innocent food” (note that this is a pagan governor describing the confession of Christians he captured and interrogated, all of whom sadly seem to have abandoned their faith under threat of violence):
“They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food–but ordinary and innocent food.”
This took place in what is now modern Turkey.

We have archaeological corroboration of this splitting of liturgies. The oldest known church, the house church at Dura Europos, featured no altar or table, which suggests that Eucharists happened away from the other parts of worship. Notably, this church is in Syria, not the Latin west…
 
There are other mentions of agape feasts in Tertullian (early third century), who notably is a Latin speaker. Clement of Alexandria (late second/early third century) mentions agape feasts of luxurious character.

Augustine of Hippo (late 4th-early 5th century) reports abuses of the feasts, which he describes as possible to do without abuse, but away from “the houses of prayer”:
*3. Of these three, then, chambering and wantonness are regarded as crimes so great, that any one stained with these sins is deemed unworthy not merely of holding office in the Church, but also of participation in the sacraments; and rightly so. But why restrict such censure to this form of sin alone? For rioting and drunkenness are so tolerated and allowed by public opinion, that even in services designed to honour the memory of the blessed martyrs, and this not only on the annual festivals (which itself must be regarded as deplorable by every one who looks with a spiritual eye upon these things), but every day, they are openly practised. Were this corrupt practice objectionable only because of its being disgraceful, and not on the ground of impiety, we might consider it as a scandal to be tolerated with such amount of forbearance as is within our power. And yet, even in that case, what are we to make of the fact that, when the same apostle * had given a long list of vices, among which he mentioned drunkenness, he concluded with the warning that we should not even eat bread with those who are guilty of such things? **But let us, if it must be so, bear with these things in the luxury and disorder of families, and of those convivial meetings which are held within the walls of private houses; and let us take the body of Christ in communion with those with whom we are forbidden to eat even the bread which sustains our bodies; but at least let this outrageous insult be kept far away from the tombs of the sainted dead, from the scenes of sacramental privilege, and from the houses of prayer. ***For who may venture to forbid in private life excesses which, when they are practised by crowds in holy places, are called an honouring of the martyrs?"

Agape feasts were finally curtailed at the Council of Laodicea (364), which prevented people from taking home the Blessed Sacrament for private use, and restricting the meals to churches. Citing Wikipedia:
"Canons 27 and 28 of the Council of Laodicea (364) restricted the abuses of taking home part of the provisions and of holding the meals in churches.[19] The Third Council of Carthage (393) and the Second Council of Orléans (541)* reiterated the prohibition of feasting in churches, and the Trullan Council of 692 decreed that honey and milk were not to be offered on the altar (Canon 57), and that those who held love feasts in churches should be excommunicated (Canon 74)."

So it appears that while agape feasts were the first liturgical form of communion, over hundreds of years it was learned that Christians were abusing the feasts and turning them into raucous parties. Between the mid-4th century and late 6th, a series of councils reiterated the ban on taking home the Sacrament and feasting in churches, suggesting that it took a long time to change the practice.

While much of the evidence of agape feasts in early years was in the east, both Tertullian and Augustine were members of the Latin west. In combination with the images in the Roman catacombs, this suggests to me that agape feasts were the earliest form of the Eucharist in the west as well. Notably, the restrictions on celebrations in homes seems to coincide with the post-Edict of Milan era, when monumental churches became the norm in the west. As the church became more and more officially accepted, it also became more centralized. Liturgies became standardized. Latin became the official liturgical language in the west under Damasus I (366-384), and the Vulgate became the standard Biblical text for the next thousand or so years. It is in this standardization that it seems to me that the rites in masses became more formalized.*
 
As far as I can tell, the Eucharist was always considered to be the Holy Sacrifice.
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the concept of the Sacrifice of the Mass didn’t come to play until the 6th century (sort of).

newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm

But it seems just from reading the text of the Roman Canon, the sacrificial aspect had to come earlier than that. The meal aspect we know goes back to the Last Supper.
The oldest known church, the house church at Dura Europos, featured no altar or table, which suggests that Eucharists happened away from the other parts of worship. Notably, this church is in Syria, not the Latin west…
I’m thinking too we might find some clues in the Eastern Rites.
 
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the concept of the Sacrifice of the Mass didn’t come to play until the 6th century (sort of).

newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm

But it seems just from reading the text of the Roman Canon, the sacrificial aspect had to come earlier than that. The meal aspect we know goes back to the Last Supper.

I’m thinking too we might find some clues in the Eastern Rites.
As I understand it, the Roman Rite is based on prior practice in Antioch.
 
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the concept of the Sacrifice of the Mass didn’t come to play until the 6th century (sort of). .
From the Pocket Catholic Catechism, John A. Hardon, S.J.,
The Mass a True Sacrifice. Since the first century of her existence, the Church has considered the Mass a sacrifice. The earliest manual of the liturgy (before 90 A.D.) has this directive for the attendance of Sunday Mass.
“On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks. But first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, 14).”
Why is the Mass a true sacrifice? Because in the Mass the same Jesus Christ who offered Himself on Calvary now offers Himself on the altar. The Priest is the same, the Victim is the same, and the end or purpose is the same.
The Priest is the same Jesus Christ whose sacred person the ordained priest represents and in whose Name he offers the Eucharistic Sacrifice.
Corinthians 11 .
 
The only risk will be the decline of lukewarmness in the Catholic world and the whole world at large. The EF is only dangerous to the enemies of Christ and his bride.

Remember, there are sinners everywhere. This has nothing to do with the Mass though, which is the most powerful prayer and means of grace that God gives to help sinners.
 
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