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Scotty_PGH
Guest
I don’t see how anything you posted “debunks” what was reported in the article I linked to. Are you saying that the above pictured Mass did not occur as documented?
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Ray_Scheel
Guest
Scotty PGH:
Reading the parish sites description literally could actually make the interpretation of the picture even worse (if that is possible. If it was an interfaith group its quite possible that some of the clowns pictured on the altar were not Catholic. It certainly doesn’t explain why the events that picture witnesses to were allowed to transpire.
I think that she’s trying to say that, since the parish website presents it as a “legitimate” outreach, the priest and participating Catholics should be exempted from otherwise legitimate criticisms of perpetuating gross liturgical abuses.
Reading the parish sites description literally could actually make the interpretation of the picture even worse (if that is possible. If it was an interfaith group its quite possible that some of the clowns pictured on the altar were not Catholic. It certainly doesn’t explain why the events that picture witnesses to were allowed to transpire.
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steve99
Guest
What exactly is the problem here? What are the “gross liturgical abuses”?
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bear06
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Scotty PGH:
Just a disclaimer - This picture was in no way intended for use to put down the Pauline Mass in general. It was intended to show that this certain priest is notorious when it comes to abuses in the Mass.
My friend took the pictures. That used to be my geographical parish. Those pictures are real. I belong to CUROCK (actually it’s pretty defunt now that our new bishop is here). This picture was taken and burned on a CD with much other evidence of abuses in our diocese of the previous 25 years. The then Cardinal Ratzinger told Fr. Fessio to let us know that the CD was the way to go. Everyone in Rome had seen it (we’re assuming the Holy Father did too) and he said that we should let anyone else with trouble in their dioceses know that my friends multi-media CD was the way to get changes and that we were assigned the bishop we got (Bishop Vigneron) specifically because of this CD.
Just a disclaimer - This picture was in no way intended for use to put down the Pauline Mass in general. It was intended to show that this certain priest is notorious when it comes to abuses in the Mass.
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bear06
Guest
By the way, not only are those pictures real, they are indeed a Mass not just some outreach program going on. The pastor did wear polkadots and there were clowns on the altar durling the MASS.
While most on Traditio.com are lies, this one is not.
While most on Traditio.com are lies, this one is not.
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MaryAgnes
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Then this PARTICULAR case is in Rome’s loving hands. But, as you admit, there are many lies out there and I think you would agree it is not appropriate to merely judge from a picture.
So what’s happened to the parish/pastor since your exposé?
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Scotty_PGH
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Thank you for providing some factual information, and for un-“debunking” this very real, very sad situation.
I’m glad to hear things are looking up in your diocese.
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bear06
Guest
He’s pushing the limit wherever he thinks he can but I’m pretty sure that the clown mass is a thing of the past. Shockingly he seems like he’s going to be obedient to the GIRM. The bishop has made this his first priority.
It’s kind of funny that when I e-mail pastors on something shocking found in their bulletins I get an immediate response when I CC the bishop. I’ve actually gotten clarifications and retractions. It would seem that some do not want to lose their jobs.
I do feel sorry for the bishop. He’s got so few faithful priests to work with and the Vatican is taking them and making them bishops of other states like Hawaii. He’s having to import them from other dioceses!
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steve99
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert_82
**The one liturgical abuse I have NEVER understood is the clown mass.
http://www.orlandolatinmass.com/clownmass.jpg*
**Holy Name of Jesus Parish
Indiatlantic, Florida
A long toime ago, when I was a Boy Scout, once a month we (& the Girl Guides) would put on our uniforms and process up the isle as part of the entrance procession. One would carry the flag up onto the sanctuary and put it behind the altar. This was at one of the Sunday Masses as a celebration of the Scouting movement.
If the clowns have a valid parish ministry then what is wrong with them doing the same if they have a special Mass to celebrate their ministry. The clown costume is their uniform just like my Boy Scout uniform.
And I might add I was doing this before Vatican II - the old Latin Mass days. I don’t remember anyone screeming “litugical abuse” then.
Originally Posted by Desert_82
**The one liturgical abuse I have NEVER understood is the clown mass.
http://www.orlandolatinmass.com/clownmass.jpg*
**Holy Name of Jesus Parish
Indiatlantic, Florida
A long toime ago, when I was a Boy Scout, once a month we (& the Girl Guides) would put on our uniforms and process up the isle as part of the entrance procession. One would carry the flag up onto the sanctuary and put it behind the altar. This was at one of the Sunday Masses as a celebration of the Scouting movement.
If the clowns have a valid parish ministry then what is wrong with them doing the same if they have a special Mass to celebrate their ministry. The clown costume is their uniform just like my Boy Scout uniform.
And I might add I was doing this before Vatican II - the old Latin Mass days. I don’t remember anyone screeming “litugical abuse” then.
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cyprian
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IN ALL CHARITY AND LOVE, YOU MAKE ME WANT TO VOMIT. JESUS’ MESSAGE DOESN’T NEED CLOWN COSTUMES. “TAKE NOTHING WITH YOU, FOR YOUR JOURNEY…ERRR EXCEPT, ERRR, CEPHAS, DON’T FORGET THE CLOWN COSTUMES.” YOU NEED TO BE RE-CATHECISED, SORRY, IT’S TRUE, BUT DON’T WORRY, I DID TOO!!!
IT’S MORE FUN THAN CLOWNS AT A CIRCUS!!PEACE
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seeker63
Guest
Gee, and I just thought it was bad when one of our priests omits the word “men” from the “for us men and for our salvation” part of the Creed.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
I’m not trying to be mean or pushy. I am saying this calmly, but I use a large font to see better.
However, having been a Camp Fire Girl, Girl Scout, Explorer in not one but two posts (I think they call them Venturers now), one of the daughters of a Boy Scout District Commissioner, Den Mother, and Girl Scout leader, out to camp at both Boy Scout and Girl Scout camps more often than I like to admit (and thus exposed to Camp Mass, as well as Scout Sunday more than might be good for one person), as well as Catholic, I can tell what would make the difference.
1.) During those monthly Masses, was the intent that as a group the scouts/ guides participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, or were the scouts/ guides there to look good in their uniforms and entertain the congregation?
2.) Did the priest celebrating these Masses wear a scout poncho and campaign hat in lieu of his casuble?
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tadly
Guest
I see nothing wrong with a mass for the scouts. I have seen Knights of Columbus being the focus at my wife’s church.
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tadly
Guest
That is not nice.IN ALL CHARITY AND LOVE, YOU MAKE ME WANT TO VOMIT. JESUS’ MESSAGE DOESN’T NEED CLOWN COSTUMES. “TAKE NOTHING WITH YOU, FOR YOUR JOURNEY…ERRR EXCEPT, ERRR, CEPHAS, DON’T FORGET THE CLOWN COSTUMES.” YOU NEED TO BE RE-CATHECISED, SORRY, IT’S TRUE, BUT DON’T WORRY, I DID TOO!!!
PEACE
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netmilsmom
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It probably would be much easier to read and much nicer if you used capital letters in their proper place.IN ALL CHARITY AND LOVE, YOU MAKE ME WANT TO VOMIT. JESUS’ MESSAGE DOESN’T NEED CLOWN COSTUMES. “TAKE NOTHING WITH YOU, FOR YOUR JOURNEY…ERRR EXCEPT, ERRR, CEPHAS, DON’T FORGET THE CLOWN COSTUMES.” YOU NEED TO BE RE-CATHECISED, SORRY, IT’S TRUE, BUT DON’T WORRY, I DID TOO!!!
PEACE
You look horribly mean.
(I agree with your idea, but not your presentation)
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cyprian
Guest
you’re right, i shoulden’t re phrase scripture
i apologize
i’m really not mean, rather nice actually, just very orthodox
get’s in the way sometimes
peace
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netmilsmom
Guest
Ooooo! I’ve been there too friend. Sometimes people say the strangest things here and it takes me to the brink.
I just got told on another thread that I was snippy. Geez, I was just dumping references and that makes me snippy.
Sometimes you can’t win.
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netmilsmom
Guest
BTW, what is your church in Cleveland? I’m from Brook Park.
You can private mail me where I can go when I am back home!
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steve99
Guest
On July 9th Desert_82 posted the picture of the clowns in the recessional procession. Without any comment or context other than to indicate this was a “clown mass”. There followed a string of comments criticising this supposed liturgical abuse.
On August 10th MaryAgnes pointed out that the clowns concerned had a valid parish ministry.
In my post (same date) I was making the point that in this case the picture had a perfectly reasonable explanation and that cries of liturgical abuse are not justified from the evidence of the picture.
On two specific questions you ask:
What evidence do you have that the clowns were there to entertain the congregation? There is nothing in the picture to indicate that.
What evidence do you have from the picture that the priest wore a poncho or campaign hat? If you look at the picture posted by Fast_ed75 on Aug 6th, of what would appear to be the same occasion, you will see that the priest is wearing normal vestments, no hat, no poncho or anything else unusual.
And in Fast_ed75’s picture, what is the clown doing on the altar addressing the congregation? Entertaining them, or explaining his ministry? I don’t know so I won’t be jumping to any conclusions.
Its all too easy, and unfair to those concerned, to take something out of any context or explanation of what is going on, make assumptions and cry liturgical abuse.
I’m not saying there may not be concerns in some of these cases, but there should be evidence, not misinterpretation of something that may be valid.
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