Gun Control & the Catholic Church

[Black_Jaque]

**

We wouldn’t need to protect ourselves against people with guns if they didn’t have the guns to begin with.

Unfortunately the right to keep and bear arms is about more than individuals protecting themselves from thugs. It is also about collective people protecting themselves from tyranical governments. The day the U.S. military doesn’t have semi-automatic handguns and assault rifles is the day the U.S. Citizens won’t need them.

The NRA’s obsession with citing the constitutional right to bear firearms apparently overlooks the fact that at the time the Constitution was written it took more time to load a rifle than it takes a present-day gun to fire off 50 rounds.

When the 2nd Amendment was written the authors did not know the firepower that would develop in a little over 100 years. However, what they understood fully was that the citizen-army needed to be balanced with the standing army. At the time of the Revolution they did have something called buckshot, and they knew how to load a cannon with grapeshot. With one blast of grapeshot they could level a mob. That is pretty impressive firepower. The concept of killing people quickly was not totally foreign to them. **

 

[vern_humphrey]

The NRA’s obsession with citing the constitutional right to bear firearms apparently overlooks the fact that at the time the Constitution was written it took more time to load a rifle than it takes a present-day gun to fire off 50 rounds.

The Newspaper industry’s obsession with citing the constitutional right to freedom of the press apparently overlooks the fact that at the time the Constitution was written it took more time to print a single page than it takes a present-day press to run off 50 copies.

The Broadcast industry’s obsession with citing the constitutional right to freedom of speech apparently overlooks the fact that at the time the Constitution was written the spoken word could be heard only by people in earshot. Now people on the far side of the world can hear what you say.

The church’s obsession with citing the constitutional right to freedom of religion apparently overlooks the fact that at the time the Constitution was written there were only a few religions, almost all of them Christian, in this country. Now therer are Muslims, Hindus, and many others.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

OK take me out back and shoot me. But I did not challenge his Catholic status for any political belief. I did question how someone can claim to be a Catholic and go against the word of the Vatican.

I assume you are opposed to the war in Iraq, per the word of the Vatican?

 

[melensdad]

I assume you are opposed to the war in Iraq, per the word of the Vatican?

I oppose it for many reasons. The word of the Vatican is certainly one of them, and a very good one at that.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

I oppose it for many reasons. The word of the Vatican is certainly one of them, and a very good one at that.

Just curious. Sorry for the tangent.

 

[melensdad]

As long as criminals an politicians have access to guns, the American people will need them. We are not about to go the way of Nazi Germany. We need to go after these priests or bishops who are attempting to subvert our Civil Rights.

Maybe they are just in the wrong country. Perhaps they would be happier in Communist China, or Cuba or North Korea. Then they wouldn’t have to worry about private ownership of firearms.
**
Priests and bishops who advocate infringements of our Second Amendment Rights are in conflict with the historical teaching of the Catholic Church regarding self defense**. We cannot allow them to dignify their arguments by the prestige of their office. We need to make an issue of this. We need to point out that these men have abandonded the historical Church teaching, and are teaching heresey.

ابو كمون

Well here is some of the latest news, apparently there is going to march on Chuck’s Gun Shop again There is no mention if Fr Pfleger will attend, or if Rev Jackson is going solo this time?

This is a press release from the Illinois State Rifle Association:
Action Alert for Saturday, June 16, 2007:

Late breaking news: We’ve just received word that Reverend Jesse Jackson & Operation PUSH is going to protest again at Chuck’s Gun Shop, 14310 S. Indiana, Riverdale, IL on Saturday, June 16th. This is three weeks after the highly publicized protest at the same location where Jesse’s pal, Fr. Michael Pfleger from St. Sabina called for the “snuffing out” of Chuck’s owner, John Riggio. It’s been predicted that Pfleger will return for a repeat performance.

Many of you have followed the news about Pfleger’s threat and wished that you could have been at Chuck’s on May 26th to show your solidarity. Tomorrow is your chance. If you’re not sure what kind of a threat this is to gun rights, we suggest that you listen to Pfleger’s screaming diatribe recorded at Chuck’s Gun Shop last time.

Background info: The owners of Chuck’s have been long-time defenders of the right to keep and bear arms. Unfortunately, they have paid dearly for supporting your rights. Chucks was the primary target of Mayor Daley’s $433 million lawsuit against the 2nd Amendment. Although the Daley suit failed, Chuck’s was forced to bear huge legal costs to defend their business - and to defend the 2nd Amendment. Chuck’s has also been harassed ceaselessly by anti-gun church groups and the gun-hating media - including “60 Minutes.”

 

[johnlal]

I don’t understand why so many Catholics seem to be in favor of gun control.

The church is neither conservative or liberal. It’s all of us together trying to determine right from wrong. Those of us who will never understand the Church’s teachings on conservative political issues such as abortion or discrimination against gays just have to accept those teachings. Conservatives just have to accept that the Church opposes the Death Penalty (at least as it exists in USA), the War in Iraq, and gun violence. Just let it go!

 

[Brendan]

Conservatives just have to accept that the Church opposes the Death Penalty (at least as it exists in USA), the War in Iraq, and gun violence. Just let it go!

I too am opposed to gun violence, that’s why I am armed.

 

[melensdad]

the Church opposes the Death Penalty (at least as it exists in USA), the War in Iraq, and gun violence. Just let it go!

I oppose the Death Penalty, the War in Iraq and gun violence.

Exactly what do you want me to let go?

 

[Evan]

The church is neither conservative or liberal. It’s all of us together trying to determine right from wrong. Those of us who will never understand the Church’s teachings on conservative political issues such as abortion or discrimination against gays just have to accept those teachings. Conservatives just have to accept that the Church opposes the Death Penalty (at least as it exists in USA), the War in Iraq, and gun violence. Just let it go!

The church is more nuanced than is evident in this post.

The death penalty is opposed in the US because of how it is applied. Rather than eliminating the penalty, it ought to be corrrected. Until it is corrected, it should not be enforced.

The opinions of some high placed officials in the Church (re Pope) opposed initiating a war in Iraq. However, since the officials’ opinions of this react to events is history as they unfold, the latest communiques from the Vatican indicated a support of the ongoing effort in Iraq. ie… it’s now broken, fix it before you leave.

The church is opposed to gun violence except in the defense of persons when no other means are available. This speaks neither to gun control nor to the government mandated ‘right to bear arms’ This right is not inalienable and can be removed by the government. However, our constitution rights can only be changed by a supermajority vote of the people.

The right to self defense is inalienable (God given) but how a people do this is up to them: individual arms, state militia, national guard, local police, vigilantees, neightbourhood watch. The Church does not speak to method, only to the basic right.

 

[tomarin]

Conservatives just have to accept that the Church opposes the Death Penalty (at least as it exists in USA), the War in Iraq, and gun violence. Just let it go!

while what you write is largely true, the situation is complicated by the fact that on the liberal issues you cite the church allows for exceptions. some wars can be just wars. criminals that pose a serious threat to the well being of the community can be executed. there is enough “wiggle room” for people of good faith to legitimately disagree.

as for guns, the catechism makes clear that it is appropriate for a catholic to defend his own life from violent attack. so i understand why the original poster is troubled by the bishops’ advocacy for gun control and it’s entirely appropriate for him to ask why, if only because it seems to contradict the catechism.

(i think the answer to the apparent contradiction lies in the word “reasonable” which is how the bishops describe the gun control measures they advocate. that will be unacceptable for any true gun rights advocates because they view the second amendment right to bear arms as absolute and inviolable, whereas in practice it is often curtailed by state and local governments – provided they do not go so far as banning civilian ownership of guns altogether.)

by the way, on most issues (excepting religion) i tend to be fairly liberal.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The church is neither conservative or liberal. It’s all of us together trying to determine right from wrong. Those of us who will never understand the Church’s teachings on conservative political issues such as abortion or discrimination against gays just have to accept those teachings. Conservatives just have to accept that the Church opposes the Death Penalty (at least as it exists in USA), the War in Iraq, and gun violence. Just let it go!

What you have said is not true. The Church does oppose abortion. But the Church does not oppose the Death Penalty, the war in Iraq, or possession of firearms – whatever the position of some individual members of the Church on those issues.

 

[abu_kamoon]

The church is neither conservative or liberal. It’s all of us together trying to determine right from wrong. Those of us who will never understand the Church’s teachings on conservative political issues such as abortion or discrimination against gays just have to accept those teachings. Conservatives just have to accept that the Church opposes the Death Penalty (at least as it exists in USA), the War in Iraq, and gun violence. Just let it go!

The Church is not supposed to be political. The Church is supposed to promote morality. That said, we, who consider ourselves either conservative or liberal, need to understand what morality is. Just because some Church “leader” says something does not necessarily make it true.

Abortion is condemned because it is the taking of innocent life. Homosexuality has always been considered an abomination, or at least, so says the Bible. If we speak out against it, does that make us guilty of “discriminating” against homosexuals? No, we are condemning specifics conduct, not attacking specific individuals.

Capital punishment has not historically been condemned by the Church. Unless Church spokesmen are ready to condemn their predecessors, this is up to private opinion.

The war in Iraq is wrong on several points. First, it does not qualify under the Just War doctrine, since we were never attacked by Iraq. Secondly, Congress has not declared war, as required by the Constitution. By the way, I was in Iraq 2004-2005.

Virtually everyone is opposed to gun violence. The problem here is heretics attacking the right of self defense, which has always been justified in Church teaching. This we cannot allow. We have to expose these heretics for what they are.

ابو كمون

 

[wabrams]

I assume you are opposed to the war in Iraq, per the word of the Vatican?

When did the Vatican issue an *infallible *statement saying the war in Iraq was unjust and that we must oppose? Or are you just refering to the non-binding opinion of some people at the Vatican?

 

[melensdad]

When did the Vatican issue an *infallible *statement saying the war in Iraq was unjust and that we must oppose? Or are you just refering to the non-binding opinion of some people at the Vatican?

To my knowledge the Vatican issued a strong opinion prior to the invasion of Iraq that it is an unjust war (as per the Catechism of the Catholic Church ‘Just War’ clauses). Which is what I believed before we went in and still believe.

However, as has been noted recently in the press, the Vatican now believes we must stay and fix Iraq before we leave since we are the ones who broke it. Which is also what I believe, but not simply because of the word of the Vatican. It seems idiotic not to strongly support our forces and their new/expanded mission of retraining, maintaining order, rebuilding the infrastructure, etc. Leaving early would cause regional chaos in Iraq and Turkey, it would likely lead to genocide of Christians and Muslims as well. The horrors of Darful in the Sudan are nothing compared to what an early pullout of Iraq would do!

 

[DL82]

For me there’s a little line of scripture that sums it up - ‘those who live by the sword will die by the sword’. I just don’t see Jesus joining the pro-gun lobby with that attitude.

There’s also the part where Peter says to Christ “here are two swords” and our Lord says “that is enough”.

This has long been interpreted by the Catholic Church to mean the two authorities of Church and State are enough to bear arms for our defence and correction.

That means, politically, the Church is much more ‘statist’ than the American political right, which tends to see government power as a threat rather than a gift for our mutual aid.

 

[melensdad]

"LilyM:

For me there’s a little line of scripture that sums it up - ‘those who live by the sword will die by the sword’. I just don’t see Jesus joining the pro-gun lobby with that attitude.

I think your thought is somewhat dysfunctional in linking that line to the gun lobby. It may be appropriate to link that scripture to the concept of war. But to link it to self defense seems completely inappropriate.

There’s also the part where Peter says to Christ “here are two swords” and our Lord says “that is enough”.

This has long been interpreted by the Catholic Church to mean the two authorities of Church and State are enough to bear arms for our defence and correction.

It has been interpreted that way by SOME, but not ALL.

That means, politically, the Church is much more ‘statist’ than the American political right, which tends to see government power as a threat rather than a gift for our mutual aid.

Clearly written by someone who has not had to live under an oppressive regime. I suppose the government power used by Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Baby Doc, and Hitler were all gifts for the mutual aids of their respective nations?

Let us not forget why the US was founded, my favorite line from the Declaration of Independence reads:

• But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

When did the Vatican issue an *infallible *statement saying the war in Iraq was unjust and that we must oppose? Or are you just refering to the non-binding opinion of some people at the Vatican?

“Some people”, such as THE POPE. Non-binding or not, I’m inclined to give his opinion a lot of weight. A thing doesn’t have to be infallible to be right.

 

[vern_humphrey]

“Some people”, such as THE POPE. Non-binding or not, I’m inclined to give his opinion a lot of weight. A thing doesn’t have to be infallible to be right.

But the Pope didn’t say the War in Iraq doesn’t meet the Just War criteria (that is, after all, not his call according to the Catechism.) Nor did he call on Catholics to oppose it.

In fact, his Holiness has said we must finish the job.

 

[MariaG]

“Some people”, such as THE POPE. Non-binding or not, I’m inclined to give his opinion a lot of weight. A thing doesn’t have to be infallible to be right.

Well good. Then you must agree that the situation in Iraq needs to be fixed before leaving