Gun Control

[tommcguire]

Jesus proclaims the Kingdom of God in which he tells us to be perfect as His heavenly Father is perfect and to forgive not just once but 70 times 7 times. Do these teachings call us, His followers, to go beyond sin? Is it possible that gun control could take the human family closer to the Kingdom of God?

 

[bbarrick8383]

Jesus proclaims the Kingdom of God in which he tells us to be perfect as His heavenly Father is perfect and to forgive not just once but 70 times 7 times. Do these teachings call us, His followers, to go beyond sin? Is it possible that gun control could take the human family closer to the Kingdom of God?

Time to unsubscribe to this thread.

 

[bigfootbob]

Jesus proclaims the Kingdom of God in which he tells us to be perfect as His heavenly Father is perfect and to forgive not just once but 70 times 7 times. Do these teachings call us, His followers, to go beyond sin? Is it possible that gun control could take the human family closer to the Kingdom of God?

Tom,
The Catholic Church has clearly stated that if you kill someone in self defense, it is NOT a sin.
Do you agree or disagree with that?

 

[tommcguire]

Jesus does not let us off the hook:

To the rich young man in Mt 19: 16-30 who asks: "what must I do to attain eternal life?:

Jesus answered in part:“If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

The rich young man asked further: What do I still lack?" Jesus said “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come , follow me.”

“When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.”

Might a gun be one of the possessions Jesus wants us to sell, give the money to the poor, and then come follow Him?

 

[AHapka]

Jesus never used lethal force.

Jesus is God. Are you saying God never took anyones life by force? Did not He make the Earth split to swallow up a family in the Old Testament. Shall I go on? What about the flood?

 

[AHapka]

Tom,
The Catholic Church has clearly stated that if you kill someone in self defense, it is NOT a sin.
Do you agree or disagree with that?

Agreed. As Catholics we believe that the Pope teaches infalliably in matters of faith and morals. The Catechism is certainly about faith and morals and comes directly from the Church herself. It agrees with you.

End of discussion. Unless you want to disbelieve the Pope who is INFALLIABLE in the discussion.

 

[bigfootbob]

Jesus does not let us off the hook:

To the rich young man in Mt 19: 16-30 who asks: "what must I do to attain eternal life?:

Jesus answered in part:“If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

The rich young man asked further: What do I still lack?" Jesus said “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come , follow me.”

“When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.”

Might a gun be one of the possessions Jesus wants us to sell, give the money to the poor, and then come follow Him?

It seems like you are avoiding my question.

I do not mean to offend you, but I’m going to say what I think: Your arguments are getting pretty far-fetched and ridiculous. I don’t mind arguing with people that disagree with me, but I respect their point of view a lot more if they are logical in the way they think and argue, regardless of whether they are wrong or not.

 

[tommcguire]

All the legal arguments have been made in this thread. I contributed to them earlier. Is it possible to go beyond the legal? To follow Jesus is not just to avoid sin!

If Jesus is our teacher, is it possible to follow his way? He taught in parables. The parables have multiple interpretations, yes even within the teachings of the Catholic Church. For example, check out the gospels for the last few weeks. He often answered questions with questions. For example, the story of the workers in the vineyard ends with the question: “Are you envious because I am generous?”

When Pilate asked Jesus the direct question: “Are you king of the Jews?”
He answered: “You say so.”

So my answer to your question about sin: “You say so, yes and the Church says so.”

Is it possible to look beyond the legal? Jesus calls us to go beyond the law. When we love, do we not go beyond required legal requirements?

 

[Hastrman]

Well, Christianity has never taught that it is wrong to kill in self-defense, or to go to war justly.

But Buddhism has.

And yet, the great Zen scholar (and swordsman) Yagyu Munenori titled one chapter of his treatise on swordsmanship, “The Life-Giving Sword”.

Swords, he said, are not merely for taking life. They can also give it. “It is reasonable to strike down that which is excessive”, and when a man’s wickedness threatens others, it is an act of compassion—and the Buddhist concept of compassion is almost the precise equivalent of Christian charity—toward his victims to strike him down. In taking the life of one wicked man, you give it to those he is trying to harm, as well as to any he might harm in the future.

If Buddhism can formulate an argument for killing in self-defense, not as merely permissible but as actually laudable, how much more, then, might Christianity, which has never had a requirement to refrain from doing any harm?

 

[Ender]

If Jesus is our teacher, is it possible to follow his way? He taught in parables. The parables have multiple interpretations, yes even within the teachings of the Catholic Church.

If you are asking whether we may interpret parables in ways the Church does not, or in ways contrary to the ways she does, then the answer is no. This is what you are trying to do with this question inasmuch as the Church has never opposed the (necessary) use of deadly force in defence of oneself or of others.

Or it may be replied that Moses slew the Egyptian in order to defend the man who was unjustly attacked, without himself exceeding the limits of a blameless defence. Wherefore Ambrose says (De Offic. i, 36) that “whoever does not ward off a blow from a fellow man when he can, is as much in fault as the striker”; and he quotes the example of Moses. (Aquinas, ST II-II 60,6 ad 2)

Note that the example Ambrose approvingly cites is of Moses killing the Egyptian in defense of another man so clearly what is meant here is not merely blocking a blow but of using deadly force where necessary to defend life.

Ender

 

[tommcguire]

“O death where is your sting?” Jesus freed us from the fear of death. Why are we so afraid of death, that we will cause the death of another to preserve our own life? When I was given a weapon in the military and told how many people I could kill with a specific weapon, my response was I cannot kill another human being. When facing a person holding a gun on me as he robed me, I was not afraid to die. Would it be better for followers of Jesus to work more to prevent killing than to find ways to defend self and others by killing? I believe gun control is one way to prevent killing of others, especially in urban areas of the United States.

 

[bigfootbob]

“O death where is your sting?” Jesus freed us from the fear of death. Why are we so afraid of death, that we will cause the death of another to preserve our own life? When I was given a weapon in the military and told how many people I could kill with a specific weapon, my response was I cannot kill another human being. When facing a person holding a gun on me as he robed me, I was not afraid to die. Would it be better for followers of Jesus to work more to prevent killing than to find ways to defend self and others by killing? I believe gun control is one way to prevent killing of others, especially in urban areas of the United States.

If you don’t want to defend yourself that is your problem, but don’t touch our guns.
Most of your arguments do not seem logical to me, and you will not respond to other people’s arguments, so I am going to ignore your posts on this subject unless you have a valid argument.

 

[Ender]

Would it be better for followers of Jesus to work more to prevent killing than to find ways to defend self and others by killing?

*The good bear with the wicked by enduring patiently, and in due manner, the wrongs they themselves receive from them: but they do not bear with them as to endure the wrongs they inflict on God and their neighbor. For Crysostom [Cf. Opus Imperfectum, Hom. v in Matth., falsely ascribed to http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08452b.htm”]St. Crysostom *] says: “It is praiseworthy to be patient under our own wrongs, but to overlook God’s wrongs is most wicked.” (Aquinas)

I believe gun control is one way to prevent killing of others, especially in urban areas of the United States.

You may well believe that gun control is the more effective choice but there is no justification for believing it is the more moral choice. The Church does not support that position.

Ender

 

[Hastrman]

You may well believe that gun control is the more effective choice but there is no justification for believing it is the more moral choice. The Church does not support that position.

Actually, given all the crime stats say otherwise, no, one doesn’t have the right to believe gun control is the more effective choice. Nobody can think that unless they deliberately avoid learning the relevant statistics—which is the textbook definition of culpable ignorance.

 

[AHapka]

“O death where is your sting?” Jesus freed us from the fear of death. Why are we so afraid of death, that we will cause the death of another to preserve our own life? When I was given a weapon in the military and told how many people I could kill with a specific weapon, my response was I cannot kill another human being. When facing a person holding a gun on me as he robed me, I was not afraid to die. Would it be better for followers of Jesus to work more to prevent killing than to find ways to defend self and others by killing? I believe gun control is one way to prevent killing of others, especially in urban areas of the United States.

Since you refused to kill as a member of the military, by your logic, the proper solution to handle Hitler and the Nazi death camps would have been to do nothing whatsoever.

I think most would reject your logic. Including the Church.

 

[tommcguire]

Is physical violence the only way to confront evil? Does Jesus offer alternatives? What would happen if we all took seriously Jesus’ way of life? Would the Kingdom of God be closer to reality than it is now? Jesus gives life! How does the Christian share life with the sinner? Would guns to kill people be under control if we lived more peacefully with each other? I do not own a gun, will never own a gun, nor would I ever fire a gun to kill another human being. Does that mean I do not do ever resort to violence in word or deed? No I have committed sins. I ask myself: What violence did I bring into the world by my sin of violence against another?

 

[marine13]

Is physical violence the only way to confront evil? Does Jesus offer alternatives? What would happen if we all took seriously Jesus’ way of life? Would the Kingdom of God be closer to reality than it is now? Jesus gives life! How does the Christian share life with the sinner? Would guns to kill people be under control if we lived more peacefully with each other? I do not own a gun, will never own a gun, nor would I ever fire a gun to kill another human being. Does that mean I do not do ever resort to violence in word or deed? No I have committed sins. I ask myself: What violence did I bring into the world by my sin of violence against another?

First, in answer to your question, none. There is no evil in justifiable use of violence to protect yourself or another from evil. This has been said multiple times throughout this thread and is backed up by the CCC and scripture. You appear to have blinders on when it comes to this and I don’t understand why.

You said you would never use a gun to kill another human being. Would you use any other tool, even your hands, to physically harm, and potentially kill another person who is attacking someone else?

After reading your comments I get the feeling you would choose not to act if you were faced with a life or death situation involving yourself or others. While I can understand why you would choose not to act for yourself I cannot understand how you could choose not to act in defense of another. To me that would mean you have a lack of compassion for the suffering of others. In choosing not to act to are choosing to allow evil to happen. Whether you like it or not evil will always exist in our world because of the abuse of God’s gift of free will. Gun control won’t change that. Violence has existed long before the invention of guns and will continue even if all guns are completely destroyed. People will still have multiple other ways to do evil to others. I do not see holiness in absolute pacifism especially when one has the power to make peace where the peace has been broken by the evil of another.

I ask you who has sinned? The person who acts out with violence in self defense for themself or out of compassion and defense of another or the person who forces those people to to take such action?

The only thing evil needs in order to exist is for good men to do nothing.

 

[Brendan]

Is physical violence the only way to confront evil? Does Jesus offer alternatives?

Well Jesus pretty much nuked Sodom and Gemorah, so it would seem that even Christ resorts to physical violence to combat evil when needed.

 

[Hastrman]

Well Jesus pretty much nuked Sodom and Gemorah, so it would seem that even Christ resorts to physical violence to combat evil when needed.

More specifically the Second Hypostasis of the Trinity, and less mythological, Jesus literally chased money-changers out of the temple with a stick.

These guys were 1st century Jews, a little thwacking with a willow frond wouldn’t chase 'em out. I’m guessing it’s a big stick in question.

 

[tommcguire]

Yes, I hope I would do all I could, short of killing, to stop someone from harming another. I once held a man on the ground while the man he intended to kill escaped. Would I use something other than a gun to stop one who was about to kill? I am a sinful man and do not predict what I might do in a moment of passion. What I do know, as a rational man, I have made a firm decision not to own or use a gun to kill another human being.

Reference was made earlier to the war against Hitler. I wonder what would have happened had there not been a World War II? There was no war to stop Mao in China. During his time in power an estimated 40 to 70 million people died from preventable causes. What if there had been a war? I am not sure war would have made things better.

Many Catholics and other Christians in China during the 20th Century could have saved their families from suffering and death by just saying: “Belief in God is superstition.” What would have been our advise to them?

In Detroit, Devin Taylor, 21, is facing a first-degree murder charge in the death of a three year old child, Aarie Berry, who was killed July 10 when a bullet pierced the front of her family’s apartment, located in a multi-unit house on the city’s east side. Would a gun have saved Aarie Berry? Would better control of guns prevented this death of a child? What about Devin Taylor? What if he had not been able to purchase or steel a gun? Is it really evil to use multiple means to prevent violence and death?