Gun Control

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It’s funny, but it seems that wherever there is harsh gun control, there seems to be a really high crime rate - and that includes gun-related crimes. Seems that criminals can get their hands on guns whether the government says “no” or not!
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
It’s funny, but it seems that wherever there is harsh gun control, there seems to be a really high crime rate - and that includes gun-related crimes. Seems that criminals can get their hands on guns whether the government says “no” or not!
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I have never seen a study along these lines, so what you are saying might just be urban legend.
 
Looks like we are at an end of Gun Control talk. My prayer is that we all move on, trusting in The Lord and no other gods.

The response we pray so often at Mass captures the essence of my response to Gun Control: “The Lord is my light and my salvation, of whom should I be afraid.”
 
People often use that and other quotes about trusting in God to justify gun control. God does expect that we will take some measures to take care of ourselves, however, so I find such arguments rather pointless. In fact, people who make those quotes in such cases are borderline saying that those who use guns have no faith in God. If we are to take that stance, then a person who makes efforts to cloth and feed himself also has no trust God! See where this leads?

Who among you would use anything handy, such as a baseball bat or a golf club for defense if you or your family were threatened? Probably most people. I’m still trying to find out why, in some people’s eyes, it’s okay to use a baseball bat for self-defense, but not a gun. :confused:

So let alone those who use guns as a means of protection for themselves and their families. Of whom should they be afraid? Nobody. But that doesn’t mean their right to guard their own lives should be taken away.
 
Captain_America said:
I have never seen a study along these lines, so what you are saying might just be urban legend.
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Look into the studies by Gary Kleck ("Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America) and John Lott (“More Guns Equal Less Violent Crime”). Whether you agree with their findings or not such studies exist.

Ender
 
Percentage of crime is down, that is not what was expected in a time economic crisis. The thesis did not prove to be true.

Some say crime is down because of more guns in the hands of citizens, no proof this is true.

Some say child porn reduces child pornography, no proof this is true.

The issues of crime are extremely complex, not easily given to simple answers despite what certain authors claim in their popular books.

As Catholics we do have a mission to bring about the reign of God. Building a sense of communal solidarity will put us, as disciples of Jesus Christ, with those most in need of healing and forgiveness. I assume that would have an impact on crime and eventually eliminate the need to kill in self defense.
 
tommcguire said:
Some say child porn reduces child pornography, no proof this is true.
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After this statement, you no longer have an argument imo. I’d have to break forum rules to tell you what I really think about this comment.
 
I apologize. My statement was in accurate. It is a fact that some have tried to prove in places where child pornography is permitted, there are countries where it is not a crime, that child molestation is reduced. That is what my statement should have made clear.

In my opinion to argue that murder is down because citizens carry guns does not show a causal relationship any more than the argument that child pornography is the cause of reduction in child molestation.

Gun possession may be a part of the picture, but crime is complicated. No one factor will prove to be a solution. What Catholic Social Doctrine teaches is the need for solidarity. For me the key question is how are we in solidarity with those who are the most likely to commit crime? How do we as a Catholic Community work to form community that welcomes the stranger, the sinner, the criminal, the one most alienated?

I am sorry if my analogy offend anyone. It may not have been the best analogy to use.
 
A lot of people don’t realize that the law abiding gun owners that just want their guns for protection, hunting, and possibly just to adorn their gun racks, are the very people that are affected by gun bans.

If a person wants to commit a crime they will do it regardless of whether or not their gun is legal- after all, they are committing one crime already, why let a gun law stop them? Take a look at Virginia Tech, Columbine, or even just the random guy that holds up a bank. Were any of them legally concealed carrying or legally owners of the weapons? (Generally NOT)

If we ban guns simply because people harm other people with them, then we had better ban my can of mace that hangs on my keys. I might snap and decide to harm some random person just because the mace was there… What about knives, swords, and the various martial arts weapons, are we going to ban those? Many people will tell you that a nice gun, knife, or sword is essentially a work of art as well as a weapon. They really aren’t always made so people can run around creating havoc. Weapons are always going to be available, it is how we use them that makes the difference.
 
tommcguire said:
In my opinion to argue that murder is down because citizens carry guns does not show a causal relationship any more than the argument that child pornography is the cause of reduction in child molestation.
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It’s important to note that we’re not just talking about people being allowed to carry guns, but to just possess them. There are cities that limit (or forbid) law-abiding citizens from even keeping them in their homes.
lheartcoffee:
If we ban guns simply because people harm other people with them, then we had better ban my can of mace that hangs on my keys. I might snap and decide to harm some random person just because the mace was there… What about knives, swords, and the various martial arts weapons, are we going to ban those? Many people will tell you that a nice gun, knife, or sword is essentially a work of art as well as a weapon. They really aren’t always made so people can run around creating havoc. Weapons are always going to be available, it is how we use them that makes the difference.
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I believe that some places are starting to ban that stuff, too. I think it’s Australia that is banning some knives?
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
I believe that some places are starting to ban that stuff, too. I think it’s Australia that is banning some knives?
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There are some knives banned/restricted in the US. There was an attempt to ban the assisted opening knives that use torsion or springs awhile back. I’d be quite a criminal if they did that, I have a couple boxes full of knives, many of them assisted opening with a mechanism designed to mimic a switchblade.
 
tommcguire said:
In my meditation this morning on Mt 4: 5-7, I imagined myself with a gun. I wondered if taking that gun out to shoot and kill a person who aimed to kill me or others was a test of the Lord God.

I pray often “Lord, you are my rock, my stronghold, in you I trust.” If I used the gun to take another’s life in an act of defense: would I not be putting my trust in the gun not God? Would such an action say: “I trust you with my life to a certain extent, but not all the way. Just in case you fail me, I got this gun to defend myself.”

What does it mean to put trust in God as a disciple of Jesus Christ? The issue here is not about the moral imperative. A person can morally use lethal force in self defense. But Jesus when asked: " What must I do to be saved?" He went beyond the moral imperative. Is trust in God one of those acts of the human will that goes beyond the moral imperative?
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Substitute “medicine” for “gun.” Kinda ironic, huh?
 
Ender said:
Look into the studies by Gary Kleck ("Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America) and John Lott (“More Guns Equal Less Violent Crime”). Whether you agree with their findings or not such studies exist.

Ender
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It is interesting that crime in general has been going down for many years now, particularly more aggressive kinds of crime.

The fear of gun control is more, much more, than simple fear of gun regulation. It’s a psychological thing for many: people are enamored of sleek weaponry, fascinated by complex mechanics of guns, thrilled by their power and intrigued by their history. For some, it’s a personal occasion to inveigh against “guv’mint”.

Guns are gods for some.
 
Captain_America said:
It is interesting that crime in general has been going down for many years now, particularly more aggressive kinds of crime.

The fear of gun control is more, much more, than simple fear of gun regulation. It’s a psychological thing for many: people are enamored of sleek weaponry, fascinated by complex mechanics of guns, thrilled by their power and intrigued by their history. For some, it’s a personal occasion to inveigh against “guv’mint”.

Guns are gods for some.
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Even if what you said was true, that for “some” the opposition to gun control demonstrated nothing more than a psychosis, it wouldn’t change the validity of the arguments. A statement is true or false on its own and doesn’t become invalid even if made by a lunatic. If you can’t refute the argument it doesn’t matter how you describe the people making it. Your position stands or falls on the validity of the argument you can make on its behalf, and so far your arguments have been inadequate.

Ender
 
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