Gun Control

[LeafByNiggle]

Everything comes with a cost. I am not of that school that believes “If it save just one life we should do it!”. If I were, I would be also looking at doing away with private ownership of cars. Just this past ski season in Colorado a young person (innocent blood) died in a skiing accident. Should we close down the ski resorts?

I agree with you. You are exaggerating my position just to make it easier to refute. What I actually said was that the cost in innocent blood should be considered, something that I saw lacking in the discussion so far. Surely you don’t disagree with that, do you?

Well, do you own a firearm? And it is your “unsubstantiated opinion” that I have not “consider the human cost of having lots of guns around”.

Yes, it was unsubstantiated, and I retract that statement.

 

[tommcguire]

I have been away for awhile, find the thread becoming more interesting. I like reading the experience of people; it puts the Church teaching and theory in a real world setting.

Jesus did not do away with the law; He fulfilled the law. That does not mean doing what people in the Old Testament did. It does mean taking the whole Gospel, not just certain verses, and trying to see what the Gospel tells about living life. A keyes to the ethic of the Gospel are the beatitudes. In my own experience of trying live out the ethic of the Beatitudes, which require sacrifice and a whole lot of counter culture action, I continue to wonder how taking the life of another, for whatever reason, fits into what the Gospel of Jesus Christ calls us to be.

To be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect, seems to me to preclude the use of any kind of gun for protection or defense. A gun is not a sword, when you raise that to an automatic weapon, the weapon is far beyond any harm one person could ever do with a sword, so I think we should avoid the comparison of gun with sword.

When not living in a city, I stay in an area where many Amish people live. I have become friends with an Amish family, who have taught me a lot about being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Although I could never live as they do. without being connected to the power grid, using horses for transportation and to farm, to educate their children only to the eighth grade. They have much to teach me about living the Gospel ethic. They do not and have not used any kind of weapons to defend themselves against the attacks of their enemies, in fact, they give witness to the tremendous power of forgiveness when someone does one of their members harm.

To live the ethic of the Gospel requires a lot more than most of us are willing to sacrifice, that includes myself. However, I believe that if those of us who call ourselves disciples of Jesus Christ were to live out the Gospel ethic we would be living in a different kind of world. I believe that world would reflect more the will of God then our world today does.

 

[starshiptrooper]

I also mentioned domestic disputes. Do you have figures to show that that is down as well?

I have a better idea. Why don’t you give us some proof that domestic shootings are a significant problem?

 

[tommcguire]

The following news item suggests a need for more control of guns and other explosive devises, both new laws and enforcement!!!

When people on the government’s terrorist watch list have tried to buy guns or explosives in recent years, the government has let them the vast majority of the time.

That’s the finding of a new report by the Government Accountability Office, sent to lawmakers last month and released publicly Monday.

From February 2004 to February 2009, 963 background checks using the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System “resulted in valid matches with terrorist watch list records; of these matches, approximately 90 percent were allowed to proceed because the checks revealed no prohibiting information,” the GAO report says. About 10 percent were denied.

 

[starshiptrooper]

I have been away for awhile, find the thread becoming more interesting. I like reading the experience of people; it puts the Church teaching and theory in a real world setting.

Jesus did not do away with the law; He fulfilled the law. That does not mean doing what people in the Old Testament did. It does mean taking the whole Gospel, not just certain verses, and trying to see what the Gospel tells about living life. A keyes to the ethic of the Gospel are the beatitudes.

So where is the beatitude that tells us that guns are evil?

In my own experience of trying live out the ethic of the Beatitudes, which require sacrifice and a whole lot of counter culture action, I continue to wonder how taking the life of another, for whatever reason, fits into what the Gospel of Jesus Christ calls us to be

You may take that up with the Church.

To be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect, seems to me to preclude the use of any kind of gun for protection or defense. A gun is not a sword, when you raise that to an automatic weapon, the weapon is far beyond any harm one person could ever do with a sword, so I think we should avoid the comparison of gun with sword.

According to you, the difference between a gun and sword the is amount of damage each weapon can inflict upon a person. However, this difference is one of degree and not one of kind. A difference in degree cannot change the goodness or badness of something, a small lie is wrong, just not as wrong as a big lie. So, are you saying that swords are somehow evil too?

When not living in a city, I stay in an area where many Amish people live. I have become friends with an Amish family, who have taught me a lot about being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Although I could never live as they do. without being connected to the power grid, using horses for transportation and to farm, to educate their children only to the eighth grade. They have much to teach me about living the Gospel ethic. They do not and have not used any kind of weapons to defend themselves against the attacks of their enemies, in fact, they give witness to the tremendous power of forgiveness when someone does one of their members harm.

You do realize the Church condemns pacifism?

 

[chain]

My understanding of Amish is somewhat second hand. I understand they are not allowed to own weapons - but are allowed to own tools. As such Amish are fairly against handguns as they are almost entirely used to project force against another (definition of a weapon). However I would dare to say that the Amish in general are more armed than the average American, because rifles and shotguns are considered tools - and Amish tend to be rural. I would never presume an Amish to be unarmed.

Earlier in this thread was a mention of where would you aim if a man with a knife was in your house. The assumption there was you had a handgun. Most would argue that rifles/shotguns are much better tools for self defense in your home than handguns.

 

[tommcguire]

I you mean pacifism that does not seek justice, yes the Church condemns that. If you mean pacifism that is non-violence in search of justice…how could that be? The Master, Jesus Christ so often instructed his disciples in non-violence: turn the other cheek, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, do good to those who persecute you, put up your sword, forgive them for they know not what they do. How could he condemn those who choose non violence?

I am troubled by the jubilation not about justice, but about the killing of Osama bin Laden. It strikes me that there has been much vengeful celebration in the last 24 hours. Might that kind of attitude not enter into our need to bear arms?

Here are some statistics I found in a Time Magazine article of January 23, 2011.

In America

In one year there are

100,00 people are shot in murders, assaults, suicide , accidents or by police intervention

31, 224 people die from gun violence

12, 632 people are murdered

3,067 children and teens die from gun violence

683 children and teens kill themselves

17, 352 people kill themselves

351 are killed by police intervention

613 killed in accidents with guns

Less than 1 % of all gun deaths involve self-defense…

In a survey of 23 high income countries.the United States accounts for 80% of deaths from guns.

Guns will remain a part of the culture of America no matter what is done about gun control. What I do not understand is the obsession with and celebration of guns when they are involved in so much violent death. They directly contribute to a significant cost of health care. Many, if not most, who are injured require government funding to be e treated in hospitals for gun shot wounds and often for a lifetime of care.

Compare the number who die and are wounded from gun violence with the number killed and wounded in the September 11th Trade Center attack. Compare the resources put into getting justice in dealing with those who attacked, with the resources and efforts we put into dealing with gun violence.

God have mercy on us!

 

[starshiptrooper]

I you mean pacifism that does not seek justice, yes the Church condemns that. If you mean pacifism that is non-violence in search of justice…how could that be? The Master, Jesus Christ so often instructed his disciples in non-violence: turn the other cheek, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, do good to those who persecute you, put up your sword, forgive them for they know not what they do. How could he condemn those who choose non violence?

Pacifism is only tolerated by the good guys. Therefore, pacifism will always work against the good guys.

I am troubled by the jubilation not about justice, but about the killing of Osama bin Laden. It strikes me that there has been much vengeful celebration in the last 24 hours. Might that kind of attitude not enter into our need to bear arms?

I am happy that we killed Osama as well. I don’t see the connection between my attitude and the desire for a gun.

Here are some statistics I found in a Time Magazine article of January 23, 2011.

In America

In one year there are

100,00 people are shot in murders, assaults, suicide , accidents or by police intervention

31, 224 people die from gun violence

12, 632 people are murdered

3,067 children and teens die from gun violence

683 children and teens kill themselves

17, 352 people kill themselves

351 are killed by police intervention

613 killed in accidents with guns

Less than 1 % of all gun deaths involve self-defense…

In a survey of 23 high income countries.the United States accounts for 80% of deaths from guns.

Guns will remain a part of the culture of America no matter what is done about gun control. What I do not understand is the obsession with and celebration of guns when they are involved in so much violent death. They directly contribute to a significant cost of health care. Many, if not most, who are injured require government funding to be treated in hospitals for gun shot wounds and often for a lifetime of care.

Compare the number who die and are wounded from gun violence with the number killed and wounded in the September 11th Trade Center attack. Compare the resources put into getting justice in dealing with those who attacked, with the resources and efforts we put into dealing with gun violence.

So what is your point? Nearly 43,000 Americans are killed every year in car accidents. Close to 3,000,000 more are injured. These car accidents cost the US $230,000,000 every year. (car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html) I don’t see you arguing that cars are evil, or that we need to restrict the use of cars despite the obvious fact that they almost certainly wreak more havoc than the misuse of guns ever has.

 

[tommcguire]

Jesus is a good guy!

We do restrict the use of cars. Everyone who drives one must have a driver license. Everyone who owns a gun should have to comply with laws that control the use of guns.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Jesus is a good guy!

He does not favor pacifism.

We do restrict the use of cars. Everyone who drives one must have a driver license.

According to you, guns are evil because they wreak lots of havoc. I just pointed out that cars do even more damage than guns. I still don’t see you arguing that cars are evil or that we need more restrictions on the use of cars.

Everyone who owns a gun should have to comply with laws that control the use of guns.

The vast majority of these laws are almost certainly unconstitutional. Read the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution.

 

[tommcguire]

Love your enemy, do good to those who persecute you, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, turn the other cheek; all the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I do not expect to change the minds of people who choose to use guns for self defense. Guns are not evil, but guns are made to kill. Guns are a part of the American culture; it will take centuries to change the culture iso that gun control is part of the culture.

I do have a questions for anyone who believes that it is necessary to kill in self defense. How do I love the one I kill? How do I do good to one who persecutes me and kill that person? Do I expect the other to kill me, if I threaten him or her? Is killing in self defense turning the other cheek?

When soldiers came to arrest Jesus, a disciple took up a sword in his defense. Jesus told the disciple to put away the sword. I believe that means for me as a disciple I must die rather than kill the other.

God have mercy on us all. Let us pray the Our Father: “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”

 

[LeafByNiggle]

When soldiers came to arrest Jesus, a disciple took up a sword in his defense. Jesus told the disciple to put away the sword. I believe that means for me as a disciple I must die rather than kill the other.

See posting #104 in this thread for a very interesting take on that same event.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Love your enemy, do good to those who persecute you, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, turn the other cheek; all the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I do not expect to change the minds of people who choose to use guns for self defense. Guns are not evil, but guns are made to kill. Guns are a part of the American culture; it will take centuries to change the culture iso that gun control is part of the culture.

I hope this cultural change never happens.

I do have a questions for anyone who believes that it is necessary to kill in self defense. How do I love the one I kill? How do I do good to one who persecutes me and kill that person? Do I expect the other to kill me, if I threaten him or her? Is killing in self defense turning the other cheek?

When Jesus said those words, He was prohibiting private vengeance, nothing more.

When soldiers came to arrest Jesus, a disciple took up a sword in his defense. Jesus told the disciple to put away the sword. I believe that means for me as a disciple I must die rather than kill the other.

Interestingly enough, the Church has never interpreted that passage the way you do. The Church teaches that we may kill in self defense. So, should I believe your private interpretation or the Church’s teaching?

 

[AHapka]

When soldiers came to arrest Jesus, a disciple took up a sword in his defense. Jesus told the disciple to put away the sword. I believe that means for me as a disciple I must die rather than kill the other.

To me, this scripture has always been Jesus’ way of saying: stop, I have willed this end. I am choosing to go and give up My life this way. Do not try to stop what I have chosen to do.

 

[tommcguire]

Is Christ not to live in us? Christ in us may be telling us to find a way other than violence to solve our problems. Some will die from violence, whether they use weapons to kill or not. God’s mercy is for all.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Is Christ not to live in us? Christ in us may be telling us to find a way other than violence to solve our problems.

Why do you think Jesus is telling us to solve our problems differently now? What are your reasons?

 

[tommcguire]

This is what the Catholic Catechism tells us

2306 Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.

 

[starshiptrooper]

This is what the Catholic Catechism tells us

2306 Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.

Unfortunately, pacifism almost always harms the rights and obligations of both men and societies. Why? Because pacifism is only tolerated by the good guys. Therefore, pacifism will almost always work against the good guys.

 

[pira114]

I read a lot of this thread, but not all, so I hope this hasn’t been said already.

In America, our 2nd Amendment rights have nothing to do with hunting or even protecting yourself from criminals on a daily basis. Although they come in handy for that. The Second Amendment is about keeping the citizenry armed to prevent a tyranical government.

The sole purpose of gun control is to disarm it’s populace to prevent an uprising/revolution. The world’s most famous gun control advocates are also it’s worst examples of evil. Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, etc. And now, our own Democratic Party is joining those ranks. While I wouldn’t necessarily place them in the evil catagory (yet), they gravely misunderstand the purpose of the 2nd and believe themselves to be more important than us (the people). Perhaps ignorance is the greatest evil.

Their biggest failure is that they might truely believe they are in charge of our Democracy. The failing in that is, of course, that this is not and never has been a democracy. It’s a Republic. The Constitution is written to protect that. Which is why they constantly need to circumvent it.

 

[tommcguire]

Non-violence does work for the good. The civil rights of the 1960’s came about from non-violence. The latest demonstration of non-violence in Tunisia and Egypt and other parts of the Middle East should be evidence of the value of non-violence.

I am for gun control. I do understand the second amendment. I am for gun control, because in the place where I live, I assume most people own guns. Yet the murder rate from guns, the armed robberies where guns are used, the home invasions using guns, the accidental deaths from guns, the death of children from guns are intolerable. I believe that more effective gun control law and enforcement will make a difference in my city.