Gun ownership in this day and age

[LeafByNiggle]

A sad end to a budding criminal career:
Father Saves Entire Family And Stops Home Invader With Head Shot In California – Concealed Nation

For every story like that there are dozens of stories like this:

Boy, 8, finds gun and accidentally shoots mom at college baseball game, police say

An 8-year-old boy accidentally shot his mother at a University of Memphis baseball game in Millington, Tenn. Tuesday evening, kicking off a rocky start for the new interim athletic director who was introduced earlier that same day.

www.foxnews.com

Nationally, number of people hurt in firearms accidents is flat. In Florida, it’s soaring.

Four incidents, one fatal, have been reported in Tampa Bay during the past three weeks. Says one gun instructor: ‘All four of those situations should have never happened.’

www.tampabay.com

Child gun deaths: Shooting accidents killed 73 children in 2018

Coroner rules fatal shooting of 4-year-old an accident

The Lucas County Coroner’s Office has ruled a 4-year-old child accidentally shot and killed himself with a gun carried by his father, an Ohio State Highway ...

www.toledoblade.com

Shooting instructor reflects on gun safety after accident

MINOT, N.D. (AP) — At first she didn't think anything had happened. Later she was told to prepare for amputation of her leg. She survived a fight for her life.

apnews.com

https://www.ksnt.com/news/local-news/kansas-teen-dies-in-gun-accident/1893219064/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/justin-carter-dead-35_n_5c94a66fe4b057f733095880

 

[prayerrider]

Self and family defense versus cases of negligence. Apples and oranges.

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[LeafByNiggle]

Self and family defense versus cases of negligence. Apples and oranges.

No, they are two sides of the same coin. If you are going to have lots of people with guns so they can “save the day” as the guy did in your article then you are also going to have incidents like the ones I cited. It is the cost of gun ownership.

 

[prayerrider]

Not really, no.

 

[prayerrider]

Yeah, I don’t carry, or keep a loaded firearm in my home, to prevent mass shootings.
Again and again, the absurd implied “vigilante” mindset accusation is easily rebutted.

 

[Dracarys]

So let’s compare that with the “benefit” you cited.

You are not truly comparing the benefit, because these statistics never consider when guns were displayed or brandished by victims to thwart an attack that could have been a disaster. These instances are frequent, and many times they are unreported. John Lott wrote an entire book showing that more guns means less crime. His study showed that when the number of citizens who procure gun permits increases crime decreases. Having armed citizens is an obvious deterrent. The other night I saw on the news that an individual was the victim of a carjacking attempt. The victim pulled his firearm and pointed it at the would be carjacker. The carjacker fled the scene immediately. In this instance no shots were fired, and noone was hurt, yet an armed citizen was able to defend himself. Id say that is a HUGE benefit to that person, yet this incident and thousands more like it will never make it into your “statistics.”

Secondly, there are simply rewards that every gun carrier benefits from. I know that no matter where I go I have some piece of mind knowing I am armed. If my wife and I want to check out that new restaurant downtown that is in a questionable neighborhood I have my Glock in my waistband. I always say a prayer i’ll never have to use it, but if I do it’s there. That benefit to me is precious. So I don’t understand what you mean by gun ownership having no benefit. That is ridiculous!

 

[Dracarys]

For every story like that there are dozens of stories like this:

Again, training is the answer. In order to get a concealed permit in my state you have to go to a class. While I am not a fan of government mandating anything there are few excuses for any of the articles you listed. You obviously have an irrational fear of guns. Chainsaws injure people frequently too, but are you afraid of them? Do yourself a favor and go to the range and seek a competent instructor to give you a lesson. You’ll be able to rent a gun there. Shoot at some targets, have some fun, educate yourself. I bet you’ll take your target home and show off to your wife and kids. “Look daddy put some in the black”. That is awesome! If your going to knock guns you owe it to yourself to at least know what your missing.

 

[John10]

I did not see the study say anyone “talked them out of it.”

You are correct the study does not mention talking, however I would not rule that out. Of course we cannot reason with everybody, but it is always worth trying if the circumstances allow it. It does say however “Most commonly they physically subdued the attacker (14 cases), but three cases involved people at the scene shooting the perpetrator to end the attack (armed civilian)”

Secondly the study is skewed because it includes residential shootings

Quoting from the study: "The federal government defines an active shooter as “an individual actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a confined and populated area, typically through the use of firearms.”
I do not see any residential shootings mentioned in the study.

They hear sirens coming so they kill themselves.

That is no surprise, obviously most of them knew they would not survive a dozen or more highly trained police officers who are all going against them.

If there were firearm trained people on hand the odds are far better the active shooter could be stopped earlier.

The study completely disproves this as it states “Of these 13 incidents, law enforcement personnel either shot or physically subdued the shooter 12 times. Solo officers were also more likely to be injured during the event.”

I guess you missed to note the study says even solo officers, physically subdued the shooter (rather than shooting him). Not to mention the increased risk of them being injured and therefore no longer being able to do help in any way. I think it is absurd to think a less trained “armed civilian” would do better than these solo officers.

I absolutely believe police and military should arm themselves by the way, I would prefer if they did not have too, but understand why they need to. There may be a constitutional right to bear arms, however that does not mean it is unlimited or that certain restrictions cannot be placed.

The FBI stats show the need to have designated trained armed people in place.

I guess you missed the section of the study called “Civilians Trained to React”

So what does the FBI suggests civilians to do: “Endorse the use of the teaching technique of Run, Hide, Fight to explain to civilians how they can protect themselves and others around them. Police departments and the communities they serve should work together to implement this training”

Interesting to see Fight is the last option never the first, because more guns = more violence. And even then, most of the data shows unarmed civilians were able to subdue the active shooter.

Even if we take out the “liberal news source”, FBI study proves overwhelming against the “good guy with a gun myth”. However, when you have an agenda who cares about the facts ?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

So let’s compare that with the “benefit” you cited.

You are not truly comparing the benefit, because these statistics never consider when guns were displayed or brandished by victims to thwart an attack that could have been a disaster.

You can’t balance actual verified dead people that I claim is the cost of having guns with people that you think maybe would have been dead if they didn’t have a gun to brandish.

The other night I saw on the news that an individual was the victim of a carjacking attempt. The victim pulled his firearm and pointed it at the would be carjacker.

Selected anecdotes are no replacement for nation-wide statistics.

Secondly, there are simply rewards that every gun carrier benefits from. I know that no matter where I go I have some piece of mind knowing I am armed.

You can’t balance the warm fuzzy feeling you get from your gun against actual dead people that I showed is the cost of your having that warm fuzzy feeling.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

For every story like that there are dozens of stories like this:

Again, training is the answer.

Yet you refuse to support mandatory training for owning a gun. Training is not an answer if people do not get the training, and most people do not get that training because it is not mandated.

In order to get a concealed permit in my state you have to go to a class.

I think all the accidents I cited above had nothing to do with concealed carry, so the requirement to attend that class (which you oppose anyway) would not have helped the accidents I listed.

You obviously have an irrational fear of guns. Chainsaws injure people frequently too, but are you afraid of them?

I have used both chainsaws and guns.

Do yourself a favor and go to the range and seek a competent instructor to give you a lesson.

Do yourself a favor and go and sit down with an emergency room med tech and have that person describe to you all the instances of firearms accidents they have to handle.

 

[Dracarys]

You are correct the study does not mention talking, however I would not rule that out. Of course we cannot reason with everybody, but it is always worth trying if the circumstances allow it.

I think the crazed active shooter will find it hard to hear you over the gunfire and the screams of the injured and frightened. You have no idea of what you are talking about. I

I still want to know how many of these active shooters were “stopped” after they had their fill of killing or they ran out of ammo and/or victims. Your supposedly the man with the facts. How many dead or dying bodies was the shooter standing on BEFORE he was supposedly stopped?

 

[Dracarys]

Yet you refuse to support mandatory training for owning a gun. Training is not an answer if people do not get the training, and most people do not get that training because it is not mandated.

I disagree. Every gun owner I know is interested in guns and want to learn how to shoot and tacticaly use their gun. Do you have proof that people don’t get training or are you just assuming again? In my state those seeking a carry permit must get training.

I think all the accidents I cited above had nothing to do with concealed carry, so the requirement to attend that class (which you oppose anyway) would not have helped the accidents I listed.

You “think” that do you? Well again you ASSUME wrong. If you bothered to even examine the syllabus of such a course you would see that gun safety is the first thing they teach. It does not matter what i oppose because the reality is training is mandatory.

I have used both chainsaws and guns.

Good, did you cut your hand off with the saw? Did you shoot your foot off with the gun? Probably not. So why do you assume your the smartest guy in the room because you know a little theology? Gun accidents occur for the same reason car accidents occur. People get careless or they have been drinking. That is no reason to punish the other millions of gun owners.

Do yourself a favor and go and sit down with an emergency room med tech and have that person describe to you all the instances of firearms accidents they have to handle.

I would wager that firearm “accidents” seen in the ER is quite small. Every time I’ve been in the ER it is intentional shootings or stabbings. There is no accident about it. Which just further underscores that we live in a dangerous world, and smart people arm themselves to protect their families.

 

[Dracarys]

That is no surprise, obviously most of them knew they would not survive a dozen or more highly trained police officers who are all going against them.

Dracarys:

By then it’s too late. As I said, when seconds count police are minutes away. I would rather a “highly trained” teacher who was already in the school responded and took the shooter out. For some bizarre reason you have elevated police to sacred status. The military receives far more training, and some teachers have that background. But it doesn’t matter. A committed school employee who is armed and trained is far more valuable than an entire SWAT group who is 20 minutes out.

The study completely disproves this as it states “Of these 13 incidents, law enforcement personnel either shot or physically subdued the shooter 12 times. Solo officers were also more likely to be injured during the event.”

Again, the police took them out AFTER they had killed multiple innocents. What part of that dont you get? If armed citizens did not respond then it because they were not allowed to have any weapons.

I think it is absurd to think a less trained “armed civilian” would do better than these solo officers.

The civilians are there. The police are many minutes away. There is no way any officer is going to go up against an armed attacker. That would violate all rules concerning force continuum. so now I know you are not telling the truth.

FBI study proves overwhelming against the “good guy with a gun myth”.

No it only proves you are ignoring what is in front of you. I am curious as to what you would think if a flash news report said your child’s school was under attack and children were being summarily executed. The reporter says the police are “on the way, but haven’t arrived.” If a teacher who went through an approved active shooter school kills the active shooter down the hall from your child’s classroom what would you do? Would you thank him or her or would you chide them because they were not the official police (who still had not arrived yet)? Don’t forget the shooter was 10 ft away from YOUR child’s classroom when this teacher put a stop on him. And no the teacher did NOT try to talk the shooter out of it. He or she saw the threat and put two to his torso ane one through the eye into his brain stem. If that teacher had waited 10 minutes for the police your child is dead. Sorry.

 

[pnewton]

These instances are frequent, and many times they are unreported. John Lott wrote an entire book showing that more guns means less crime.

He is a gun rights advocate. Of course his studies will confirm his believe. He couldn’t sell books if they didn’t. But studies conducted to prove points are not real science.

 

[Aquinas11]

Per that logic, every study conducted by every gun control advocate can be rejected as not “real science”.

 

[pnewton]

Yes. Studies undertaken to show the dangers of guns are also dubious. That is why sources like the FBI are so useful.

 

[Dracarys]

You can’t balance actual verified dead people that I claim is the cost of having guns with people that you think maybe would have been dead if they didn’t have a gun to brandish.

So the victims of gun attacks actually have to die or they have to kill the bad guy before you will even consider this a valid reason to possess a gun. That is the silliest thing I’ve heard you say yet.

Selected anecdotes are no replacement for nation-wide statistics.

Will it make you happier if these incidents were written down on paper for you? Does that somehow make it “real”? Do you really think there is no misstatement, exaggeration, or just plain falsehood in the “nation wide statistics”? You are naive if you think only things in black and white are real.

 

[Dracarys]

He is a gun rights advocate. Of course his studies will confirm his believe. He couldn’t sell books if they didn’t. But studies conducted to prove points are not real science.

Wrong. He started out doing an article for a liberal paper to prove that having more guns in an area is dangerous. He was intellectually honest enough to admit that the data took him in the opposite of what he originally thought. In every state first granting concealed carry permits the anti gun people alarmist say there will be blood in the streets and it will be like the old wild west. It never happens because most legal gun owners are responsible and law abiding. Those of you who are afraid of guns may not believe this, but the facts bear it out.

 

[pnewton]

Wrong.

Such a retort. Okay, like me throw out the name “John Lott” for any and all to research and see for themselves. Checking out where his work has been replicated and what Mary Rosh has had to say about his work. I won’t argue on matters of faith.

I have no desire to demonize the man. He deserves admiration for all he has accomplished. However, if one is to be a critical reader, one must know where people are coming from.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

You can’t balance actual verified dead people that I claim is the cost of having guns with people that you think maybe would have been dead if they didn’t have a gun to brandish.

So the victims of gun attacks actually have to die or they have to kill the bad guy before you will even consider this a valid reason to possess a gun.

You have to have some evidence that they would have died if they didn’t have a gun. And then you have to have enough of them to balance out the people who actually did die because they had guns. That’s how you do a cost/benefit analysis.

Selected anecdotes are no replacement for nation-wide statistics.

Will it make you happier if these incidents were written down on paper for you? Does that somehow make it “real”?

I don’t think you understand the objection to using anecdotes. It not because they aren’t real. Of course they are real. It is because the decision on public policy is basically a statistical decision. If we all carry guns, will more people die or less people? That is the statistical question. That question cannot be answered by a few selected examples - especially if those examples have been selected to favor a particular outcome. You can find examples of people who saved their lives by having a gun. I can find examples of people who lost their lives because they had a gun. Neither of those efforts will answer the question of which costs more lives.

Do you really think there is no misstatement, exaggeration, or just plain falsehood in the “nation wide statistics”?

I certainly trust nationwide statistics more than anecdotes that you select.