Guys, if you could be married and a priest would you?

[Duesenberg]

Not sure where “around here” is for you. Here in western PA, that’s pretty much the definition of “parish priest” – not even “pastor”! In fact, since pastors tend to have more meetings at night, parochial vicars tend to get put on the spot for after-hours emergency calls!

Not around here.

In any case, does this strike you as particularly fair? I mean… retired priests are retired. Putting them back on the Mass schedule effectively says, “I know you’re retired… but not retired retired!”

(If they volunteer to celebrate a Mass or hear confessions here and there is one thing… asking them to work in retirement doesn’t seem fair.

This is offensive. We have had a number of priests who retire someplace in the diocese and then move here locally, buy a house or condominium or live in the rectory and ASK to become “in residence” or “senior” priests. This “work” is not foisted upon them!

When you get a chance, perhaps you might ask a parochial vicar in your neighborhood what his work week looks like. I’m thinking you’ll be surprised…

What a smug remark. It’s certainly NOT 50-60 hours to 20 hours on call!

 

[babochka]

What if your wife is giving birth and a parishoner needs the last rites and you are the only priest available?

Then you go give last rites. What if your wife is giving birth in one part of the hospital and you’re an ER surgeon and there’s an emergency situation with dozens of injuries and they call for your help? You’re going to go be a surgeon. It’s the right thing to do. What if you’re a soldier with a pregnant wife and you receive orders to ship out a week before the birth? You go and do your duty. What if you’re a fire fighter desperately working to put out raging wildfires that are consuming people’s home and taking lives and your wife calls to say she’s in labor? You fight fires.

My priest actually did miss the birth of one of his children because he was involved in a parish activity and was not able to make it on time. It happens in life. It was okay. Of course, he and his wife both would have preferred that he was there.

(Side note: It is a very modern idea to have husbands, or any men at all, present at the birth of a baby. Childbirth was long considered a women’s domain and men were not welcomed. I’m glad that has changed and have always wanted my husband at my births, but it is not strictly necessary that fathers be present. Just a couple of generations back it would have been considered unthinkable. )

Or you have to bring your child to the accident and emergency dept. because they just fell off a tree and you have to officiate at a wedding?

What if the priest himself was in a car accident on the way to the wedding and had to be taken to the hospital? What if his house catches on fire and he barely escapes with his life? What if he’s on the way to the wedding and he encounters a dying man and chooses to stop and minister to him? Would these be acceptable reasons to miss the wedding? But a man having an emergency situation with his own child puts an undue burden on his ability to be a priest?

The priest who married us was a celibate priest from Nigeria. He had a family situation to deal with and went home for a couple of months before our wedding. He was scheduled to be home two weeks before the wedding, but ran into problems with his visa and was unable to return as scheduled. He did manage to make it back with just 2 days to spare. It easily could have gone the other way. We didn’t even know that he was unable to return until he was back and contacted us to check in.

Stuff happens in life Emergencies can occur whether a priest is married or celibate. It seems like people hold married priests to a much higher standard than they celibate priests. Flexibility and charity are called for all the way around.

 

[Duesenberg]

Not here. Single males may be ordained permanent deacons at the age of 25. It’s married men that need to wait until they are 35 to be ordained permanent deacons.

 

[Duesenberg]

Canon law is 25 for single males and that’s what my diocese follows.

 

[DeniseNY]

Canon 1031, §3 - Permanent Diaconate: Age

Complementary Norm: In accord with Canon Law, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops establishes the minimum age for ordination to the permanent diaconate at thirty-five for all candidates, married or celibate. The establishment of a maximum age for ordination is at the discretion of the diocesan bishop, keeping in mind the particular needs and expectations of the diocese regarding diaconal ministry and life.

Approved: General Meeting, June 2003

Reviewed: Holy See (Congregation for Catholic Education and Congregation for Clergy): Decree (Prot. N. 78/2000), October 30, 2004 ad quinquennium experimenti; Renewed by Decree (Prot. N. 78/2000), October 12, 2009 ad alterum quinquennium

Promulgated: National Directory for the Formation, Ministry, and Life of Permanent Deacons in the United States, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 2009, art. 87.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Deacon,

It it right, then, to suggest that different dioceses (like mine and all the ones near me) are well within their rights to exclude men with elementary age children?

As far as I know that is perfectly licit for them to do.

I do know that there are, rarely, acceptions made—for instance, a man whose child fell into drugs and was raising his grandchild and a couple who had tried to adopt internationally for years and were matched with children much younger than they had expected.

But my understanding is that it is totally valid to set those paremeters.

 

[Cthompson]

This did happen in my Lutheran Church. It’s difficult to invite just the pastor over for dinner or just the pastor to a family party and not feel the need to invite his wife and children, too.

And why not invite the wife and children, too? Or just the wife if it is not a family-friendly event.

It’s a constant game of give and take. Should Father go to the finance meeting or his son’s little league game? A weekend retreat for married couples or a weekend family vacation? He’s asked to give a conference talk on a subject but it conflicts with date night with his wife. He will have to chose one over the other.

A celibate priest is able to completely exhaust himself exclusively for his parish. He will never be able to make it to every function or request all the time; however, he will not have that constant looming priority of head of the household and provider for his children and wife.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

That makes sense.

A good number of the dioceses I’m speaking of are within the same Archdioceses, so I’m guessing the bishops would work closely togeher.

 

[Brendan]

Tis_Bearself:

I always wonder if married priests would really be an improvement, based on things I’ve seen happen with Protestant ministers, which include:

• the minister and his wife deciding to have a large family and some in the congregation objecting to the fact that they have to support not only the minister and his wife but what they think are an excessive number of kids
• the minister and his wife having marital problems, or some other family scandal, which ends up being not only a distraction from his ministry, but a big scandal or source of gossip for the whole congregation
• the minister wants to transfer to another church or is being forced to transfer to another church and his family isn’t happy about it
• the minister is single and available, causing women in the congregation to be hitting on him (no other way to say it)

Plus the fact that when you get a priest with a wife and children, he’s not going to be able to live in a couple of rooms in a small rectory that he maybe shares with other priests or has them staying there when they visit the parish from the missions or whatever. He may even need to go get a bigger house, and who is going to pay for that?

Add on top of that the fact that the priest would now have the responsibility to his family instead of just to his parishioners, and it doesn’t seem like an attractive option to me as a parishioner. In addition, I really wonder about the strength of men’s call to be priests if they weren’t willing to make sacrifices, like not being married, in order to become a priest.

Eastern rites do have married priests. But they must be married first (so number 4 doesn’t occur).

The rest do. The rest are issues that Eastern priests will often face.

It also leads to delayed vocations/denied vocations because the becoming a priest, like becoming a decon in the latin rite, must be agreed upon by the wife. Some men want to be married and be a priest so they wait until they find a woman.

I worked with an Eastern Orthodox priest. He worked M-F in our company’s Software test group.

That is how he supported his family, On Sundays, he would say Divine Liturgy.

That model works well with the Orthdox, who tend to have smaller parishes with a minum of priest transfers.

Having a ‘Sunday only’ priest would not fit well with most Latin parishes.

 

[Shannon9791]

the minister is single and available, causing women in the congregation to be hitting on him (no other way to say it)

This happens to seminarians ALL THE TIME. There’s even a term for the girls who hit on seminarians, Chalice Chippers. I promise you, every guy at a seminary knows who those girls are.

 

[jas84173]

Deacons were never very well received in America. The Vatican supported the return of Deacons following the second World War in an attempt to make sure it didn’t happen again by having more people preaching the Gospel. It was well received by Bishops in Europe but not so much in the U.S. Though with the current scope maybe that attitude has changed.
Unfortunately now the Church is comprised of Churches usually two parishes yoked together and one or two priests in charge of them both.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

the minister is single and available, causing women in the congregation to be hitting on him (no other way to say it)

This happens to seminarians ALL THE TIME. There’s even a term for the girls who hit on seminarians, Chalice Chippers. I promise you, every guy at a seminary knows who those girls are.

Bearself said that, not me

It’s an issue with ALL men in seminary because even in the Eastern right an unmarried man cannot take a wife after he becomes a priest.

Having what cannot be had is not an issue that seminarians alone face.

 

[jas84173]

I’m sorry Peter did have a wife. It just isn’t emphasised much in the Canonical books.

Remember Jesus healed Peters mother in law? Obviously he was married.

I see no reason on earth why anyone is expected to live celibate. It goes against what God said in Genesis and also never does it get promoted in the Bible. The only sect of Judaism that practiced celibacy was the Essenes. But they lived lives completely void of society.

It is a pointless rule and I don’t know why in the 9th century they decided to make it a requirement.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I’m sorry Peter did have a wife. It just isn’t emphasised much in the Canonical books.

Remember Jesus healed Peters mother in law? Obviously he was married.

I see no reason on earth why anyone is expected to live celibate. It goes against what God said in Genesis and also never does it get promoted in the Bible. The only sect of Judaism that practiced celibacy was the Essenes. But they lived lives completely void of society.

It is a pointless rule and I don’t know why in the 9th century they decided to make it a requirement.

Oh give me a break. It’s a practice of the church going back centuries. Peter didn’t go to seminary school.

And again, unmarried men haven’t ever taken on a wife after becoming a priest, but married men, early on and in the Eastern rite are allowed to become priests. But never priest first, wife later. Never.

Actually, there is a line about remaining chaste for the sake of the kingdom.

Soooooo…theres that.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

In every Catholic church with a reasonably young priest, there is some lady making eyes at him. I always thought it was because they got a thrill out of the forbidden or in some cases were just looking for an attachment that couldn’t possibly lead to a real commitment. But it takes on a new dimension when there is actally a possibility of ending up as Mrs Priest.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

In every Catholic church with a reasonably young priest, there is some lady making eyes at him. I always thought it was because they got a thrill out of the forbidden or in some cases were just looking for an attachment that couldn’t possibly lead to a real commitment. But it takes on a new dimension when there is actally a possibility of ending up as Mrs Priest.

I don’t think that will ever happen. Even in the disciplines where there are married priests post-ordaination marriage is still a no-go.

 

[Cthompson]

Even in the disciplines where there are married priests post-ordaination marriage is still a no-go.

That brings another interesting point up.

What would happen to religious orders?

 

[Xantippe]

(Side note: It is a very modern idea to have husbands, or any men at all, present at the birth of a baby. Childbirth was long considered a women’s domain and men were not welcomed. I’m glad that has changed and have always wanted my husband at my births, but it is not strictly necessary that fathers be present. Just a couple of generations back it would have been considered unthinkable. )

That’s true, but the problem is that nowadays, the husband might be the only support person available to the wife who is having the baby. She might have literally nobody available. Throw in some older children who need to be taken care of at home, and you have issues. As in–somebody has to be with older children overnight when mom is at the hospital. The pastor dad can’t just ditch little kids at home and jet off to offer last rites when he’s the one in charge.

It’s one thing if a family has excellent community support (which a well-established pastor’s family might have), but quite another thing when you’re new in town and have nobody locally that you know well enough yet to ask for help.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

Even in the disciplines where there are married priests post-ordaination marriage is still a no-go.

That brings another interesting point up.

What would happen to religious orders?

Nothing. Remember there were secular “no sex” groups like the Shakers. Living a ‘vocation’ to a chaste life isn’t the sole property of Catholics.

 

[jas84173]

He had a daughter
Acts of Peter ch 1

But on the first day of the week, which is the Lord’s Day, a multitude gathered together, and they brought many sick people to Peter for him to cure them. And one of the multitude was bold enough to say to Peter, ‘Peter, behold, before our eyes you made many blind see and deaf hear and the lame walk, and you have helped the weak and given them strength; why have you not helped your virgin daughter, who has grown up beautiful and believed in the name of God? For behold, one of her sides is completely paralysed, and there she is helpless in the corner. We can see those whom you have cured, but you have neglected your own daughter.’But Peter smiled and said to him, ‘My son, God alone knows why her body is sick. Know that God is not unable or powerless to give his gift to my daughter. But in order that your soul may be convinced and those present believe the more’—he looked at his daughter and said to her, ‘Arise from your place with the help of none except Jesus, and walk naturally before those present and come to me.’And she arose and came to him. The multitude rejoiced at what had taken place. And Peter said to them, ‘Behold, your hearts are convinced that God is not powerless concerning the things which we ask of him.’They rejoiced the more and glorified God. Then Peter said to his daughter, ‘Return to your place, sit down there and be helpless again, for it is good for me and you.’And the girl went back, lay down in her place and became as before. The whole multitude wept andand besought Peter to make her well. Peter said to them, ‘As the Lord lives, this is good for her and for me. For on the day on which she was born to me I saw a vision and the Lord said to me, “Peter, this day has been born for you a great affliction, for this daughter will harm many souls, if her body remains well!”I, however, thought that the vision mocked me. ‘When the girl was ten years old she became a stumbling-block to many. And a very rich man, Ptolemy by name, when he saw the girl bathing with her mother, sent for her to take her for his wife, but her mother did not consent. He often sent for her, for he could not wait…2 ‘Ptolemy brought the girl, and leaving her before the door of the house went away. ‘When I saw this, I and her mother went downstairs and found the girl with one side of her body paralysed from head to foot and dried up. We carried her away, praising the Lord that he had kept his servant from defilement and violation.

So he had a daughter. Yah it’s not in the Canon but Peter being crucified upside down isn’t either but appears in this book.