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Augustinian
Guest
Generals, admirals, field marshals, generalissimos might stay until their 60’s, but enlisted men and junior officer usually leave a lot sooner.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
Guest
Again, my point is that the priesthood is not the only “job” where a man (or woman) may be moved against their will and against the needs of their family…and it can, like the priesthood, last until the typical American retirement age. Not trying to debate the nuances of military life–just that it is a poor argument to say that those sort of rules are incompatible with family life.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
Even that is just a tradition, an ancient one, but it is not an unchangeable doctrine.jas84173:
Unless they are bishops. Then, no way.
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jas84173
Guest
That’s all it is. Tradition. It also was tradition that priests could marry for the first 1000 years of the Church.
Whose bright idea was it to say, “hmmm let’s have priests defy the human condition and force them to live lives of celbacy”.
It is really ridiculous when you think about it with a logical mind.
Whose bright idea was it to say, “hmmm let’s have priests defy the human condition and force them to live lives of celbacy”.
It is really ridiculous when you think about it with a logical mind.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Actually, from a logical standpoint, it makes perfect sense in terms of removing the conflict between the priest’s role as a married husband and father, and his other role as the spiritual “father” of a congregation and emissary of Christ.
A huge amount of us becoming holier and more perfect has also involved “defying the human condition” in many ways since day 1 of the Church and probably earlier. If we embraced our “human condition”, we would be putting ourself first in all things except maybe when a mom puts her offspring first. We would have sex with whoever we liked whenever we got the urge, keep as much food and other resources for ourselves as we could, and kill off other competing humans whenever we needed or wanted to do so. The “human condition” evolved to drive us to propagate our own personal selves and to make all decisions so that we and our own little family tribe would survive, even at the expense of others. This is radically different from Christian principles generally and even more different from the life of self-sacrifice followed by priests and others called to religious life, which means you learn to do without things other humans might have, like sex.
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Xantippe
Guest
As a smart guy (C.S. Lewis) once said, avarice is the persistent temptation of married men. Or, as somebody else once said, “a married man with a family will do anything for money.”
If you look around the Protestant world, you can find many unedifying examples of pastors squeezing their flocks for money. That’s (thanks be to God!) much less common among Catholics, as Catholic pastors are not operating under those kind of financial pressures.
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redbaron162
Guest
I believe it was St. Paul in Ephesians…
That being said keep in mind the human condition is not irrevocably tied to sexuality. For examples the Lord states than in heaven there will not be physical sexuality at all, but we will all be celibate “like the angels are”.
In addition in the OT while a levite was serving as the High Priest he was required to be celibate while serving in that role.
Here is an articles from the Vatican website on the Theological basis for priestly celibacy.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...nts/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_theol_en.html
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Gorgias
Guest
Yes… and no.Reesey:
Because if they were honest and said they wanted to join an EC church because they felt called to the vocation of marriage and the priesthood, they would be rejected for membership. That’s not a valid reason to change rites.
A Latin Rite person can be welcomed as a parishioner in an Eastern Rite parish… but, he still remains a Latin Rite Catholic. Attendance at an Eastern Rite parish does not make a Latin Rite Catholic suddenly become Eastern Rite (and vice versa).
So… the question now becomes “how can a member of a particular Rite become a priest of a different Catholic Rite?”
The answer includes getting the permission of the bishop (in the case of this example, the Latin Rite member of an Eastern Rite parish would have to get permission from his local (Late Rite) ordinary). The question of marriage certainly comes up. And, since marriage must occur before ordination, what do you think might happen if the seminarian marries and then attempts permission to be ordained an Eastern Rite priest?
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Gorgias
Guest
Not “1000 years.”
Jesus’. If memory serves, @(name removed by moderator) has already quoted the relevant Scriptural passages.
“The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. … For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom.” (1 Corinthians 1:18, 25)
“Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)
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Duesenberg
Guest
It’s unchangeable.
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Duesenberg
Guest
If a Latin Rite married male tried to become a EC priest simply because he is married, he would be rejected. Not from attending the EC church or even joining the EC church, but from trying to join the EC priestly formation.
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stinkcat_14
Guest
Please cite your source?
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stinkcat_14
Guest
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Bon_Croix
Guest
Become a deacon if you are married and you want closer spiritual relationship with Bishops and the original twelve apostles who walked and talked with Jesus.
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Gorgias
Guest
All well and good, but not what you said earlier:
See? Not rejected for ‘priesthood’, but for ‘membership in the church’.
But hey, it’s all good. I agree with what you’re saying now – they would defer offering the man entrance into a program of formation.
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PJM
Guest
Actions HAVE consequences
The unmarried priesthood is CHANGEABLE Practice
BUT WILL it be changed. HIGHLY unlikely as time & history have combined to teach Rome that it is BETTER to serve “one master” [GOD] rather than God and a wife and family.
This is NOT ab issue of Good or evil; but good & BETTER, Amen
Patrick
The unmarried priesthood is CHANGEABLE Practice
BUT WILL it be changed. HIGHLY unlikely as time & history have combined to teach Rome that it is BETTER to serve “one master” [GOD] rather than God and a wife and family.
This is NOT ab issue of Good or evil; but good & BETTER, Amen
Patrick
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LoyalViews
Guest
Amen!
In the West this won’t work. It really won’t. In the East, it does, because the tradition incorporates it. It goes down to that. Priests that have joined in the Anglican tradition, who have kept their wives, children, family home, etc, will tell you that although it’s very much worth it, its s a struggle. But even then, the Ordinariate understands that its priests have families and therefore those men have a much different schedule!
In the West this won’t work. It really won’t. In the East, it does, because the tradition incorporates it. It goes down to that. Priests that have joined in the Anglican tradition, who have kept their wives, children, family home, etc, will tell you that although it’s very much worth it, its s a struggle. But even then, the Ordinariate understands that its priests have families and therefore those men have a much different schedule!
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babochka
Guest
I think it could work in the West, but it would require a very gradual change, over centuries.
We have to remember that the Church is universal, encompassing all cultures. Many of the practical objections here are specific to middle-class American culture. My pastor is Eastern, but living in American culture, and he certainly has more struggles as a married priest would if living in Eastern Europe, where married priests are the norm. Other cultures that are not American or European might have different experiences with married priests.
Some of the objections noted have been related to the frequent moves experienced by priests. I don’t see this as a good thing at all. What kind of family gets a new father every 7 years? And don’t celibate priests, who have given up the opportunity for a biological family, deserve the opportunity to create real and lasting relationships with their spiritual children? The Church prefers the role of pastor to be a stable position.
In the United States, we have a provision for such an appointment to be for a limited term of 6 years, but indefinite is the default position, for good reason. This is an excellent article on the subject.
Pastors and Stability of Office - Homiletic & Pastoral Review
A common complaint heard from pastors and laity alike these days has to do with the frequent transfer of pastors from parish to parish. It is a phenomenon
www.hprweb.com
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babochka
Guest
In defense of celibacy, an excellent paper by Polycarp Pengo, Archbishop of Dar-es-Salaam (Tanzania): Priestly celibacy and problems of inculturation. Tanzania is a place where it has been argued that priestly celibacy is not culturally appropriate. The archbishop gives an excellent and thoughtful analysis of both celibacy and the culture of his country. It is well worth the read.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...ents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_prob_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...ents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_prob_en.html
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Xantippe
Guest
If it’s a good pastor, the loss can be wrenching. But on the other hand, if it’s a bad pastor or a bad fit, the change-over can be a blessed release. I’ve experienced both at the same parish.
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