Had an embarrassing moment at mass. Need help

[I_trust]

Joy,

I certainly understand your reluctance to believe internet sources.
Perhaps you could ask your Priest if he has the authority to prescribe hand position when the USCCB has stated that no hand position during the Lord’s prayer is prescribed?
http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...ing-the-eucharistic-prayer-and-our-father.cfm

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

What is the USCCB, please?

 

[I_trust]

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

I am trying to be helpful, truly.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I know. I know. It stands for the U.S. conference of catholic bishops! (schnitzel, he beat me.)

(could be she, but it’s hard to call a JPII avatar, a she. )

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

And I am honestly not trying to be contrary. Is the USCCB a universal jurisdiction or are there variants allowed in different places? Trying to understand why three different priests would have told me differently. I’m in the UK.

 

[JamalChristophr]

God cares about how prayerful we pray the Our Father. Not the position of our hands.

 

[I_trust]

It is true He cares what is in our hearts more than our outward gestures, but Mass would become irreverent and difficult for contemplation if there were not any “rules” regulating peoples behavior during Mass.

 

[JamalChristophr]

Well, mass is always a little bit challenging in one way or another. The parish I attend is split (maybe even down the middle) on this. I think many families hold hands. Some do the hand thing. Not too many, though. I try to ignore it as best I can and just pray.

For the record, though, I’m in agreement with you. It’s S.O.P. (irreverent perhaps) but you get the point.

I suppose the early christian liturgy back in 135 a.d. was not without it’s imperfections and hiccups, too.

 

[AdamP88]

I personally would be weirded out of someone grabbed my hand for the Our Father during mass. But if it happened I’d probably forget about it pretty fast.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I personally would be weirded out of someone grabbed my hand for the Our Father during mass. But if it happened I’d probably forget about it pretty fast.

This. My husband and I make it clear we don’t hold hands during the Our Father. As I stated above, when someone did, I was quick to forgive.

 

[exnihilo]

Is the USCCB a universal jurisdiction or are there variants allowed in different places? Trying to understand why three different priests would have told me differently. I’m in the UK.

The USCCB only hasn’t jurisdiction in the US. There is a regional bishops conference for the UK with jurisdiction.

As an outsider to Catholicism before I converted I thought of the Church as very uniform with lots of rules. I now don’t have an opinion on the number of rules. It doesn’t seem like a lot. It may be just right or maybe if anything we could use a bit more to settle some disputes. But I also found a lot of wildness. This is an example. Some people say hand holding is good. Some say it is wrong. I simply don’t want to hold anyone’s hand during Mass, not even my wife’s. So I keep to myself with my hands together in prayer.

By the way we have a priest from Cameroon. He is wonderful. We are blessed to have him.

 

[1ke]

Let’s just say this didn’t go over well. I was embarrassed. My heart sank. Honestly, at that moment I didn’t think I should show my face there again.

After mass, when everyone was leaving I sincerely apologized.

Am I overreacting? I left mass feeling miserable.

It’s difficult when something like that happens. But, yes, you are overreacting. There isn’t anything to be embarrassed about.

You are taking all on yourself. Perhaps this woman had anxiety, OCD, or some sort of phobia. Perhaps just a bad day.

The rubrics do not call for holding hands. I don’t hold hands. I simply put my hands together and close my eyes. People around me sometimes hold hands, and sometimes offer a hand. I don’t do anything rude or dramatic, but I simply decline. Whoever started this hand holding during mass way back when really put those who want to follow the rubrics at a disadvantage. And, they also put those who are visitors in a quandary-- because as you experienced, you witness people doing it but then not all do it and you felt bad for trying to hold hands. It’s created quite a mess, IMHO.

Don’t sweat it at all. It’s not a big deal, nothing to be embarrassed about, and CERTAINLY nothing to leave the church over! You don’t owe anyone an apology. You are a visitor, a guest, an inquirer. If she was rude, she owes you an apology. And, the Church as a whole owes you an apology for priests and parishioners who fail to adhere to the rubrics and thereby cause confusion in the pews.

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

Yes, our Father C from Cameroon will be greatly missed when he leaves this December.

To be clear I wouldn’t enjoy holding hands with people during prayer either, so I do understand the discomfort factor. And I have no issue if it is indeed not allowed. From reading around this now I have been taught by my Catholic priests, starting with the priest from Cameroon but not limited to him, and by my Orthodox priest friends beforehand to pray the Our Father in orans position. I will clarify the issue with them, though my purpose in praying this way is not self aggrandizement but simply obedience to what i was quite clearly told. I remember very clearly that he told us in RCIA that the people lifted their hands like this when the priest prayed the Our Father to recall Moses arms being held up by others in the old testament during a battle.

The Orthodox, i appreciate, will have a different understanding of the topic.

 

[1ke]

And I am honestly not trying to be contrary. Is the USCCB a universal jurisdiction or are there variants allowed in different places? Trying to understand why three different priests would have told me differently. I’m in the UK

Joy, the General Instructions of the Roman Missal (GIRM) is the universal authority. And, it does NOT call for handholding.

Various bishop’s conferences, such as the USCCB, have put out statements as a reminder since it is widespread and not a posture called for in the mass. There are many times when bishop’s conferences seek what are called complementary norms-- meaning variations of the main rubrics or canon law for their particular jurisdiction. Approval for handholding as a complementary norm has NOT been done in the US. I cannot find any evidence of a complementary norm in the UK either.

 

[1ke]

I have been taught by my Catholic priests, starting with the priest from Cameroon but not limited to him, and by my Orthodox priest friends beforehand to pray the Our Father in orans position

The rubrics call for the priest to pray in the orans position, not the laity.

Orthodox priests are not the best source of information for Catholic rubrics. The Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox is different from the Latin Rite Mass.

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

JoyToTheWhirled:

I have been taught by my Catholic priests, starting with the priest from Cameroon but not limited to him, and by my Orthodox priest friends beforehand to pray the Our Father in orans position

The rubrics call for the priest to pray in the orans position, not the laity.

Orthodox priests are not the best source of information for Catholic rubrics. The Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox is different from the Latin Rite Mass.

Oh yes, I understand that. I find myself in something of a quandary then. Am I to go against what I have been taught? What if the priests reiterate that I am to pray in the orans position? And is it still ok if I use that posture in private prayer? Sorry to ask silly questions.

 

[1ke]

Am I to go against what I have been taught?

I think you should do what the rubrics call for, and not do what they do not call for. We continually learn, sometimes we learn that things we have been taught are not accurate. It’s just part of life.

What if the priests reiterate that I am to pray in the orans position?

That would open a conversation with them. I am finding it difficult to imagine a scenario where a priest would tell you to pray in a specific position rather than with your hands in the prayer positions (i.e. folded together in front of you).

It’s not sinful if you pray in the orans positions. I’m just telling you it’s not called for in the rubrics. And here is an article of why the priest (but not the deacon) celebrating the mass uses the orans position during certain prayers. It’s not simply an interchangeable prayer position, it has a specific meaning in the context of the mass when the priest is using the orans position:

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

And is it still ok if I use that posture in private prayer? Sorry to ask silly questions

Certainly! And it’s not a silly question at all!

 

[twf]

Except that you are then imposing a burden on the faithful that the Church herself doesn’t. While hand holding is not a thing in these parts, I guarantee you that where it is a certain percentage of the faithful despise it with the burning passion of a thousand suns. I definitely would. I also would bet huge money that some inquirerers into the faith would be turned off by strangers grabbing their hand and not come back. It is an unhelpful practice.

 

[twf]

The poster in question isn’t in the US. The USCCB is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I suppose for myself, it’s something of a moot point. I basically have my hands far away from the hands of people beside me. They sometimes miight gesture for me to take their hand or look at me. But I don’t return any indication that might make them think I have any interest at all in taking their hands. (But I"m always happy to shake hands with my neighbor unless I have a cold or they themselves are very visibly sick. I simply during the Our Father have them in my pockets or something…but people are more likely for sure if your hand in the near vicinity of theirs. Hand holding encounters??? … At those times, it has happened in the fairly distant pass to me once or twice. I took suitable counter measures and have had no difficult after that.