Hagia Sofia to possibly become mosque again

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VeritasLuxMea said:
Off the top of my head? Most of the continent of Europe, much of the continent of Africa, most of the continent of North America, most of the continent of South America, several places scattered throughout the Pacific Ocean… probably some other places I’m forgetting.

In other words, about half of the world? That’s some pretty good loot.
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Isnt it interesting that in todays culture the massive sacrifices of the missionaries in bringing the truth to all the ends of the earth is now dismissed as “stealing”
 
estesbob said:
Isnt it interesting that in todays culture the massive sacrifices of the missionaries in bringing the truth to all the ends of the earth is now dismissed as “stealing”
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Well, you can call it whatever you like. Typically, we would call it words like “imperialism,” “conquest,” “genocide,” “massacre,” etc. You know, the kinds of words you assign to the Muslims of the past that did the same things that out Christian brethren did? Ah, but the rules change depending on who you’re applying them to, right?

If you prefer to avoid such unpleasant words and call it “dandelions and sunshine” instead because it fits more snugly into your worldview then hey, no one’s stopping you.
 
VeritasLuxMea said:
Well, you can call it whatever you like. Typically, we would call it words like “imperialism,” “conquest,” “genocide,” “massacre,” etc.

If you prefer to call it “dandelions and sunshine” because it fits more snugly into your worldview then hey, no one’s stopping you.
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Erm. Those are all separate from missionary work.
 
estesbob said:
Isnt it interesting that in todays culture the massive sacrifices of the missionaries in bringing the truth to all the ends of the earth is now dismissed as “stealing”
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the church hasn’t always had clean hands in its missionary practices, but that’s for another thread.
 
Fairwinds said:
missionary work and the conquest went hand in hand. you can’t separate them or discuss one without the other.
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Really-when Isacc Jogues was having his fingers cut off and tongue cut out where were the soldiers to protect him? Did Fr Damien “Conquer” Malaki?
 
estesbob said:
Really-when Isacc Jogues was having his fingers cut off and tongue cut out where were the soldiers to protect him? Did Fr Damien “Conquer” Malaki?
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we could cherry pick historical vignettes all day, in fact, we could do this for months, one for one, showing both sides of the church. but what would be the point? you’ll ignore all evidence that doesn’t show the church as spotless.
 
Fairwinds said:
we could cherry pick historical vignettes all day, in fact, we could do this for months, one for one, showing both sides of the church. but what would be the point? you’ll ignore all evidence that doesn’t show the church as spotless.
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Nobody said those who represented the church was spotless . But you claimed they had somehow stolen half the world. Utter nonsense
 
VeritasLuxMea said:
The Spanish Conquistadors, for example… they didn’t bring missionaries with them? 😛
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Of course they did. But this does not make conquest a religious issue. Nor was the conquest by the Spanish crown a religious movement.
 
Fairwinds said:
missionary work and the conquest went hand in hand. you can’t separate them or discuss one without the other.
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Uh. Yeah you can. Just because two things happened at the same time doesn’t mean they are related.
 
Gricken said:
Of course they did. But this does not make conquest a religious issue. Nor was the conquest by the Spanish crown a religious movement.
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In several cases, the Spanish crown completely ignored the Church regarding how they should proceed in the new world and treat the natives, and not to the natives’ benefit.
 
Gricken said:
Uh. Yeah you can. Just because two things happened at the same time doesn’t mean they are related.
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whether correlation and causation are the same or whether historical events are interdependent depends on the circumstances. whitewashing the church during the spanish conquest of the new world isn’t convincing to anyone but the choir, moreover, it makes us look stupid and unwilling to acknowledge our own sins.
Pope Concedes Unjustifiable Crimes in Converting South Americans
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ROME, May 23 — Pope Benedict XVI tried Wednesday to quell anger in South America over his recent comments about the conversion of native populations, conceding that “unjustifiable crimes” were committed in the conquest of the continent 500 years ago.
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The pope told a weekly audience here in Italian that it was “not possible to forget the suffering and the injustices inflicted by colonizers against the indigenous population, whose fundamental human rights were often trampled.”
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His clarification on Wednesday echoed an apology the Roman Catholic Church made in Brazil in 2000 for “sins and errors” committed against native populations and blacks there over the preceding 500 years.
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Fairwinds said:
whether correlation and causation are the same or whether historical events are interdependent depends on the circumstances. whitewashing the church during the spanish conquest of the new world isn’t convincing to anyone but the choir, moreover, it makes us look stupid and unwilling to acknowledge our own sins.
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I didn’t say sins were not commited. I said that you can’t say that all it’s wrong to say that it was A: All related to missionary work 2: All approved by the church 3: Considered the right thing by the church or 4: Blame the church for what other countries did
 
Gricken said:
Of course they did. But this does not make conquest a religious issue. Nor was the conquest by the Spanish crown a religious movement.
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convert or die by order of the king.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Requirement_of_1513
The Spanish Requirement of 1513 (“El Requerimiento”) was a declaration by the Spanish monarchy of its divinely ordained right to take possession of the territories of the New World and to subjugate, exploit and, when necessary, to fight the native inhabitants. The Requirement was read in Spanish to Native Americans to inform them of Spain’s rights to conquest. Those who subsequently resisted conquest were considered to harbor evil intentions. The Spaniards thus considered those who resisted as defying God’s plan, and so used Catholic theology to justify their conquest.
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text:
On the part of the King, Don Fernando, and of Doña Juana, his daughter, Queen of Castile and León, subduers of the barbarous nations, we their servants notify and make known to you, as best we can, that the Lord our God, living and eternal, created the heaven and the earth, and one man and one woman, of whom you and we, and all the men of the world, were and are all descendants, and all those who come after us.
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Of all these nations God our Lord gave charge to one man, called St. Peter, that he should be lord and superior of all the men in the world, that all should obey him, and that he should be the head of the whole human race, wherever men should live, and under whatever law, sect, or belief they should be; and he gave him the world for his kingdom and jurisdiction.
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One of these pontiffs, who succeeded St. Peter as lord of the world in the dignity and seat which I have before mentioned, made donation of these isles and Terra-firma to the aforesaid King and Queen and to their successors, our lords, with all that there are in these territories,
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Wherefore, as best we can, we ask and require you that you consider what we have said to you, and that you take the time that shall be necessary to understand and deliberate upon it, and that you acknowledge the Church as the ruler and superior of the whole world,
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But if you do not do this, and maliciously make delay in it, I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country, and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their highnesses; we shall take you, and your wives, and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey, and refuse to receive their lord, and resist and contradict him: and we protest that the deaths and losses which shall accrue from this are your fault, and not that of their highnesses, or ours, nor of these cavaliers who come with us .
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Gricken said:
I didn’t say sins were not commited. I said that you can’t say that all it’s wrong to say that it was A: All related to missionary work 2: All approved by the church 3: Considered the right thing by the church or 4: Blame the church for what other countries did
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the church has already apologized.
 
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