Hagia Sofia to possibly become mosque again

[Fairwinds]

Looks like a document by the Spanish crown. Not made by the catholic church

you can tell the Vatican the apologies made recently were all a big mistake. they’ll be relieved to find out.

 

[Gricken]

you can tell the Vatican the apologies made recently were all a big mistake. they’ll be relieved to find out.

Not what I said. I said that is a document made by Spain, not by the Vatican.

 

[Fairwinds]

Your point being? An apology for how people in the past acted is not the same as saying it was all their fault

an apology is not the same as admitting fault?

ok. sure.

 

[Gricken]

an apology is not the same as admitting fault?

ok. sure.

Admitting fault =/= everything being their fault. They made blanket apologies. Seriously this would be like blaming the whole of America for all the crime in Detroit.

 

[Ridgerunner]

One wonders why they want to do this, other than to further “Islamize” Turkey and reverse its secular path set by Mustafa Kemal. The “Blue Mosque” is virtually a twin to Hagia Sophia and appears to be very close to it. One doubts that it’s really needed as a mosque.

 

[vames]

Looks like a document by the Spanish crown. Not made by the catholic church

Naturally, as these very holy Catholic Majesties already were “exhorted” by the Pope himself to steal and keep for their families everything that belonged to those “barbarous nations” who had to be “overthrown”.

Among other works well pleasing to the Divine Majesty and cherished of our heart, this assuredly ranks highest, that in our times especially the Catholic faith and the Christian religion be exalted and be everywhere increased and spread, that the health of souls be cared for and that barbarous nations be overthrown and brought to the faith itself.​

In the islands and countries already discovered are found gold, spices, and very many other precious things of divers kinds and qualities. Wherefore, as becomes Catholic kings and princes, after earnest consideration of all matters, especially of the rise and spread of the Catholic faith, as was the fashion of your ancestors, kings of renowned memory, you have purposed with the favor of divine clemency to bring under your sway the said mainlands and islands with their residents and inhabitants and to bring them to the Catholic faith. Hence, heartily commending in the Lord this your holy and praiseworthy purpose, and desirous that it be duly accomplished, and that the name of our Savior be carried into those regions, we exhort you very earnestly in the Lord and by your reception of holy baptism, whereby you are bound to our apostolic commands, and by the bowels of the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, enjoy strictly, that inasmuch as with eager zeal for the true faith you design to equip and despatch this expedition, you purpose also, as is your duty, to lead the peoples dwelling in those islands and countries to embrace the Christian religion; nor at any time let dangers or hardships deter you therefrom, with the stout hope and trust in your hearts that Almighty God will further your undertakings.​

we, of our own accord, not at your instance nor the request of anyone else in your regard, but out of our own sole largess and certain knowledge and out of the fullness of our apostolic power, by the authority of Almighty God conferred upon us in blessed Peter and of the vicarship of Jesus Christ, which we hold on earth, do by tenor of these presents, should any of said islands have been found by your envoys and captains, give, grant, and assign to you and your heirs and successors, kings of Castile and Leon, forever, together with all their dominions, cities, camps, places, and villages, and all rights, jurisdictions, and appurtenances, all islands and mainlands found and to be found, discovered and to be discovered towards the west and south, by drawing and establishing a line from the Arctic pole, namely the north, to the Antarctic pole, namely the south, no matter whether the said mainlands and islands are found and to be found in the direction of India or towards any other quarter, the said line to be distant one hundred leagues towards the west and south from any of the islands commonly known as the Azores and Cape Verde.​

Furthermore, under penalty of excommunication late sententie to be incurred ipso facto, should anyone thus contravene, we strictly forbid all persons of whatsoever rank, even imperial and royal, or of whatsoever estate, degree, order, or condition, to dare, without your special permit or that of your aforesaid heirs and successors, to go for the purpose of trade or any other reason to the islands or mainlands, found and to be found, discovered and to be discovered, towards the west and south, by drawing and establishing a line from the Arctic pole to the Antarctic pole, no matter whether the mainlands and islands, found and to be found, lie in the direction of India or toward any other quarter whatsoever, the said line to be distant one hundred leagues towards the west and south, as is aforesaid, from any of the islands commonly known as the Azores and Cape Verde; apostolic constitutions and ordinances and other decrees whatsoever to the contrary notwithstanding.

catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0214a.htm

 

[GraceSofia]

Middle East Forum reports that other churches turned museums have recently become mosques.

Even lesser known is the fact that other historic churches are currently being transformed into mosques, such as a 13th century church building — also named Hagia Sophia — in Trabzon. After the Islamic conquest, it was turned into a mosque. But because of its “great historical and cultural significance” for Christians, it too, during Turkey’s secular age, was turned into a museum and its frescoes restored. Yet local authorities recently decreed that its Christian frescoes would again be covered and the church/museum turned into a mosque.

Similarly, the 5th century Studios Monastery, dedicated to St. John the Baptist, is set to become an active mosque. And the existence of the oldest functioning Christian monastery in the world, 5th century Mor Gabriel Monastery, is at risk.

"Ridgerunner:

One wonders why they want to do this, other than to further “Islamize” Turkey and reverse its secular path set by Mustafa Kemal. The “Blue Mosque” is virtually a twin to Hagia Sophia and appears to be very close to it. One doubts that it’s really needed as a mosque.

Yes, I think you are right. There are about 3,000 mosques in Istanbul. This is a political thing.

Sure it would be nice if it stayed a museum, but Christians “stole” the places of worship for all of the peoples of Europe

They stole the places of worship for all the peoples of Europe? Nooooo, they didn’t.

It is time to apply sanctions against Turkey until they recognise the rights of minorities such as the Kurds and the Armenians, until they give back Cypress, and until they give back the Hagia Sophia to the Orthodox Church.

Unfortunately, Turkey ignores any sanctions or treaties they don’t like so I don’t think this will work. They ignored the recent one about Iran, and have ignored many decisions of the European Court of Human Rights regarding the occupation of Cyprus.

mfa.gov.cy/mfa/mfa2006.nsf/All/90ADC505C94B392BC22571EA00271CC6?OpenDocument

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Isnt it interesting that in todays culture the massive sacrifices of the missionaries in bringing the truth to all the ends of the earth is now dismissed as “stealing”

Thats a good point. But, Muslims could easily make the same claim. Haiga Sofia was lost in war centuries ago. It’s absurd to think Christians still have some claim to it. Again, we could say the same about remaking it a mosque. What claim do the Muslims have? Turkey is or at least was, largely secular. So, turning it into a museum made the most sense. If practitioneers of either faith wishes to pine about the “good ole days”. They can walk it’s halls together and pray, or weep.

 

[Fairwinds]

Nobody said those who represented the church was spotless . But you claimed they had somehow stolen half the world. Utter nonsense

it is utter nonsense that I claimed anyone representing the church stole half the world.

you should retract that claim, its insultingly stupid.

 

[estesbob]

it is utter nonsense that I claimed anyone representing the church stole half the world.

you should retract that claim, its insultingly stupid.

Sorry.It was Verituslux

 

[Fairwinds]

Sorry.It was Verituslux

thank you sir.

 

[estesbob]

Naturally, as these very holy Catholic Majesties already were “exhorted” by the Pope himself to steal and keep for their families everything that belonged to those “barbarous nations” who had to be “overthrown”.

catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0214a.htm

The famous Popes line of demarcation. Surely you studied this in school and understand why it was issued?

 

[vames]

Oh, right, the pope wanted to settle the rivalry between the Spanish and the Portuguese by siding with his Spanish friends and allowing them to conquer and plunder too. Because the very holy Spanish and the quite holy Portuguese had exactly the same lust for power, slaves and “gold, spices, and very many other precious things of divers kinds and qualities” - things that never belonged to any European Catholic Majesty.

 

[estesbob]

Oh, right, the pope wanted to settle the rivalry between the Spanish and the Portuguese by siding with his Spanish friends and allowing them to conquer and plunder too. Because the very holy Spanish and the quite holy Portuguese had exactly the same lust for power, slaves and “gold, spices, and very many other precious things of divers kinds and qualities” - things that never belonged to any European Catholic Majesty.

Actually the Pope was the first European leader to condemn the African slave trade.There is a lot more to history than just googling up out of context quotes and coming th profound but incorrect opinions based on it.The problem is googling up snippets of history to try and make debate points instead of really studying the Times and context these events took place

 

[ILIKECEREAL]

Did the person who said that Christians stole other places in Europe mean the temples in Greek and Rome? Because I can see that as they were converted to Christian houses of worship.

I don’t know if they took any other places of worship of the Norse Pagans though because I dont know their history much at all.

 

[vames]

Actually the Pope was the first European leader to condemn the African slave trade.There is a lot more to history than just googling up out of context quotes and coming th profound but incorrect opinions based on it.The problem is googling up snippets of history to try and make debate points instead of really studying the Times and context these events took place

So when the Vatican apologized towards the New World, they totally ignored that the pope was the first European leader to condemn the African slave trade? Don’t they have serious historians to tell them the truth?
And what about the “barbarous nations” that had to be overthrown and subdued with the pope’s blessing? What about their territories that had to be divided between the Catholic Majesties, just like in a Hitler-Stalin pact? If this pope was such an enlightened person, how come it was so normal for him to promise foreign territories as gifts to his friends? If an Arab or Chinese medieval leader, a fighter against the African slave trade, were so kind and sweet as to promise North America as a gift to his greedy Arab or Chinese friends, would you defend him with the same argument?

 

[estesbob]

So when the Vatican apologized towards the New World, they totally ignored that the pope was the first European leader to condemn the African slave trade? Don’t they have serious historians to tell them the truth?
And what about the “barbarous nations” that had to be overthrown and subdued with the pope’s blessing? What about their territories that had to be divided between the Catholic Majesties, just like in a Hitler-Stalin pact? If this pope was such an enlightened person, how come it was so normal for him to promise foreign territories as gifts to his friends? If an Arab or Chinese medieval leader, a fighter against the African slave trade, were so kind and sweet as to promise North America as a gift to his greedy Arab or Chinese friends, would you defend him with the same argument?

Again you take a simple statement by the Vatican and then into validation of all you have posted. I suspect we’ll be hearing about the inquisition next.

 

[ProVobis]

Which places are these that Christians stole?

For one, Henry VIII confiscated all of the Catholic Church property in England. And the Church had owned like 20% there.