Hahahha look at this--may be crack in the pro-abort wall

[Tlaloc]

cove:

I have been in many a debate with pro-deathers. How often I have seen them make hateful references to the pre-born child in their attempt to dehumanize them. Tlaloc is no different then all the rest.

It’s cute when you engage in stereotypes to decry people engaging in stereotypes.

And, this little twisted word play only makes him look more like a fool. Trying to evade the fact that he made a hateful comment about a newborn child.

Actually I didn’t. You read into what I said based on your own prejudices.

Just for the record–I would never call anyone hideous. Except someone who was “offensive to my moral sensibilities” and acted in a “despicable” way. Someone does come to mind…

I guess I should be worried then as you’ve repeatedly connected “hideous” with “worthy of death.”

 

[Genesis315]

Tlaloc, what were your honest feelings when you saw your daughter being born? Can you honestly say that despite all the messy stuff she wasn’t the most beautiful thing you had ever seen?

 

[Mycroft]

i dont know how you can think abortion isnt murder.

1-the “thing” is alive (otherwise you wouldnt need to kill it)

2-it is life with human dna-hence it is human life

how is it not killing a human being? if you dont think life begins at conception, where do you think it begins? do you just choose some random time and say, oh its a baby now? life at conception is the only theory that even makes sense.

 

[Tlaloc]

Genesis315:

Tlaloc, what were your honest feelings when you saw your daughter being born? Can you honestly say that despite all the messy stuff she wasn’t the most beautiful thing you had ever seen?

Yes I can honestly say that. They’re pretty darn cute now but as newborns…ugh.

 

[Tlaloc]

Mycroft:

i dont know how you can think abortion isnt murder.

1-the “thing” is alive (otherwise you wouldnt need to kill it)

2-it is life with human dna-hence it is human life

how is it not killing a human being? if you dont think life begins at conception, where do you think it begins? do you just choose some random time and say, oh its a baby now? life at conception is the only theory that even makes sense.

#2 is wrong. A hand has human DNA but is not a human being, it is tissue. Destroying a hand is therefore not murder. Similarly a fetus is not an organism but tissue until some stage in its development. All of this is laid out in my thread “Rational Abortion Support.”

I do not choose a random time but when the fetus qualifies as a complete organism as the start of it’s human-ness. That perception makes at least as much sense as believing humanity starts at conception.

 

[Mycroft]

#2 is wrong. A hand has human DNA but is not a human being, it is tissue. Destroying a hand is therefore not murder. Similarly a fetus is not an organism but tissue until some stage in its development. All of this is laid out in my thread “Rational Abortion Support.”

I do not choose a random time but when the fetus qualifies as a complete organism as the start of it’s human-ness. That perception makes at least as much sense as believing humanity starts at conception.

yeah a hand isnt ever going to be ahuman being is it. you still dont say when the actual time is that the fetus is a complete organism. maybe because no-one knows so it doesnt make sense in the first place? the only thing that does make sense is life at conception.

 

[MonicaC]

???
You really don’t understand what “pro-choice” means? It doesn’t mean believing all pregnancies should be terminated. It means believing everyone has the right to decide to terminate their pregnancy (within guidelines). My wife (at the time) and I chose to have our two kids. We respect that someone else may choose to have an abortion.

Precluding abortion adds more suffering to a world that also has too much already.

I normaly try to ignor you because basically you are not worth our time, but i feel a bit fisty today, so here it goes! with this quote my guess is you also believe that it is ones perogtive to kill their own children while in utro right! So with this thought were does one stop, if a child can hear and show emotions in utro as well as when they are born than i guess by your train of thought it most be okay for a mother to kill her child at the age of one month and how about six months or three years or maybe even when they are sixteen. I mean it is that parents CHOICE right I mean if she doest want it she doesnt want it, right!

 

[Tlaloc]

Mycroft:

yeah a hand isnt ever going to be ahuman being is it.

So then you need to add a third criteria to your list above:
3- will at some point be a human being

Doh! You just admitted the fetus isn’t a human being (otherwise it wouldn’t have to* become* one).

you still dont say when the actual time is that the fetus is a complete organism.

I gave the basic criteria, detemining when those criteria come to pass is best left to medical professionals.

maybe because no-one knows so it doesnt make sense in the first place? the only thing that does make sense is life at conception.

You’re mistaken. The argument I’ve put forth is just as rational.

 

[Tlaloc]

MonicaC:

I normaly try to ignor you because basically you are not worth our time, but i feel a bit fisty today, so here it goes!

And that is a great way to start a conversation!

with this quote my guess is you also believe that it is ones perogtive to kill their own children while in utro right!

Within certain guidelines. I don’t believe in abortion throughout pregnancy, only until the fetus is developed enough to qualify as an organism unto itself and not a simple tissue connected to a host.

So with this thought were does one stop, if a child can hear and show emotions in utro as well as when they are born than i guess by your train of thought it most be okay for a mother to kill her child at the age of one month and how about six months or three years or maybe even when they are sixteen. I mean it is that parents CHOICE right I mean if she doest want it she doesnt want it, right!

No, as above.

 

[Genesis315]

Tlaloc:

Yes I can honestly say that. They’re pretty darn cute now but as newborns…ugh.

You know, that says it all. You have no idea what true beauty really is or what true love really is. This is why you sleep around and have “open” relationships. This is why your marriage fell apart. How often do you see your daughter? Do you even care that it’s not more often? I’m sure your multiple sex partners keep you plenty busy so you don’t even miss her. I hope you can honestly tell me I am wrong here.

 

[Mycroft]

tlaloc i never said a fetus wasnt a human the whole time. i didnt need to because a human hand is never a human by itself. i was just showing how your observation didnt make any sense, but you had to twist it didnt you. so you dont even know when you think its a human? you just let some scientists decide if its human or not? dont you realize thats not actually a position, your just trying to put the blame on someone else? it doesnt make sense for a fetus to suddenly become human at a random point in its developement. it only makes sense to say its human at conception. there are no other standards to judge by.

 

[Lisa_N]

Genesis315:

You know, that says it all. You have no idea what true beauty really is or what true love really is. This is why you sleep around and have “open” relationships. This is why your marriage fell apart. How often do you see your daughter? Do you even care that it’s not more often? I’m sure your multiple sex partners keep you plenty busy so you don’t even miss her. I hope you can honestly tell me I am wrong here.

Actually the real question is would you want your daughter to have a man who considers her a bore if a virgin and the children she produces hideous?

(Not you Genesis but rather would Tlaloc like HIS daughter to have someone like HIM in her life? What father would want his child with a man who objectifies her as useful only for pleasure?)

Lisa N

 

[Tyler_Smedley]

Tlaloc:

Despicable is only in one of the definitions and hateful is in none of them. Hideous means ugly. Ugly, at least to me, does not mean hateful. You may of course have a different way of relating toi the world.

You keep attacking everyone that posts aginst you, saying that we must think that people who are ugly are hateful and so on. I think that you do this because you can’t support you self with logic. Despicable and ugly are the definitions of hideous, deal with it.

Tlaloc:

Why not use the definition I actually intended instead of searching for one that means something else?

How am I suposed to know what you mean? You are so vauge all the time, and I though that we wern’t supposed to assume?

 

[Tlaloc]

Genesis315:

You know, that says it all. You have no idea what true beauty really is or what true love really is.

Gee just because I have a different opinion?

This is why you sleep around and have “open” relationships. This is why your marriage fell apart.

It’s like you’ve known me all my life. Tell me more about me, oh wise one!

How often do you see your daughter?

Every weekend. Oh darn I should have let you answer for me since you’ve recently become omniscient. Must be nice looking down on all us lowly mortals and peering into ours souls and stuff…

Do you even care that it’s not more often?

Yes I do. But then again you’ve already decided that since I think differently I’m a monster so, no I don’t care, in fact I was going to sacrifice her on a black alter the next time I saw her. That more what you wanted to hear?

I’m sure your multiple sex partners keep you plenty busy so you don’t even miss her. I hope you can honestly tell me I am wrong here.

Glad to, especially since you’ve been so self righteous about it. I’ve had two partners since my divorce. One was a very short lived fling between friends when we were both stressed out of our minds and the other is the woman I’ve been with for a couple years now.

You need to learn to not employ so many truly offensive stereotypes when dealing with others.

I’m surrounded by pictures of her and my son in my cubicle right now. I’ve got a nice one of her dressed up as a unicorn when she was 2. My son was a “Leaf Dragon.” I have a picture of that too.

A couple years ago the doctors thought I might have an anyeurism called Arteriovenal Malformation. It’s pretty nasty. The idea that I’d be abandoning my kids tore me apart emotionally.

I asked for the divorce because I really loved my wife but she was unhappy. I just wasn’t what she needed and it killed me to feel like I was the cause of her unhappiness. I had to balance her unhappiness, mine, and the kids’ and make the rational choice. It was terrible and I’ll never know if we somehow could have pulled it together, but I’ll also never have to worry about my kids growing up wondering why mommy and daddy yell so much. I’ve made rather large sacrifices (and she has too) to maintain our relationship at a good level post-divorce in order to give the kids two households that are not at each other’s throat. I’ve been zealously cautious about letting my girlfriend be around the kids and do stuff with them until I was sure she’d treat them right.

Don’t pretend to know anything about me, Gen. And don’t you dare condescend to tell me I’m a bad father based on your prejudices.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Tlaloc:

Gee just because I have a different opinion?

It’s like you’ve known me all my life. Tell me more about me, oh wise one!

Every weekend. Oh darn I should have let you answer for me since you’ve recently become omniscient. Must be nice looking down on all us lowly mortals and peering into ours souls and stuff…

Yes I do. But then again you’ve already decided that since I think differently I’m a monster so, no I don’t care, in fact I was going to sacrifice her on a black alter the next time I saw her. That more what you wanted to hear?

Glad to, especially since you’ve been so self righteous about it. I’ve had two partners since my divorce. One was a very short lived fling between friends when we were both stressed out of our minds and the other is the woman I’ve been with for a couple years now.

You need to learn to not employ so many truly offensive stereotypes when dealing with others.

I’m surrounded by pictures of her and my son in my cubicle right now. I’ve got a nice one of her dressed up as a unicorn when she was 2. My son was a “Leaf Dragon.” I have a picture of that too.

A couple years ago the doctors thought I might have an anyeurism called Arteriovenal Malformation. It’s pretty nasty. The idea that I’d be abandoning my kids tore me apart emotionally.

I asked for the divorce because I really loved my wife but she was unhappy. I just wasn’t what she needed and it killed me to feel like I was the cause of her unhappiness. I had to balance her unhappiness, mine, and the kids’ and make the rational choice. It was terrible and I’ll never know if we somehow could have pulled it together, but I’ll also never have to worry about my kids growing up wondering why mommy and daddy yell so much. I’ve made rather large sacrifices (and she has too) to maintain our relationship at a good level post-divorce in order to give the kids two households that are not at each other’s throat. I’ve been zealously cautious about letting my girlfriend be around the kids and do stuff with them until I was sure she’d treat them right.

Don’t pretend to know anything about me, Gen. And don’t you dare condescend to tell me I’m a bad father based on your prejudices.

Tlaloc you are very angry,and hurt,you talk big talk but I don’t think you believe yourself.Whats wrong?I think I know you talk about an open relationship but are you the only one being unopen?Why are you against the unborn?Is it because you are unhappy?

 

[Mycroft]

i think we really need to keep to the actual argument. its faulty logic to say someones opinion is wrong because of other things in their life theyve done wrong. dont bring peoples personal lives into this, it can be shown that his opinion is faulty just by stating the facts. personal attacks make it look like you dont have a retort so you have to resort to stabs at peoples personal lives.

 

[Tyler_Smedley]

Wow Tlaloc you are really angry here…I would suggest a cool off period. I think that some of this bitterness from you first marriage might be why you hold some of the views that you do…

 

[Genesis315]

Well, when one says their daughter is hideous at any point in her life, there is something very wrong. I’m sorry, but that is true. You are the one that said you have an open relationship and you have all this experience. What was one supposed to think? At least now I can tell you are not totally heartless. I’m glad to see it.

 

[Tyler_Smedley]

I think that there are some deeper rooted issues here, could it be Tlaloc that you are not sure about your own positions on these issues and that you are desperately trying to convince youself that you are right? Are you rebelling against God because of what has happened in your life? I do agree that you have had it badly but this is not the way to go.

“You are going the wrong way” -Christopher West TOB

 

[Hermione]

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/miracle/program.html

This has some great images of a baby in the womb. Although, somewhere in the first few segments there’s an image of male genitals. (I think it’s the second one.)