Hail, Holy Queen Prayer - difficulty as new Catholic

[friardchips]

Thank you!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

What shall one do if he would be far too uncomfortable taking part in such sayings?

This is one thing that’s kept me out of the CC.

We don’t have to say it. As simple as that. Some people go over board in their devotions and that’s their personal thing. I pray to Christ, to the Father and the Holy Spirit. To the Holy Spirit a lot. I also ask for help to Blessed Virgin Mary, St. Judas Thaddeus, St. Padre Pio, and now St. John Paul II. In that order.

I won’t argue with others preferences and I expect them to not argue with me over mine.

 

[friardchips]

No one did the will of God more perfectly than Mary did. Unlike Abraham, she was forced to silently watch her own beloved Son suffer and die the most horrific death we could ever imagine, because she knew that it was the will of God. She knew that it was necessary for the salvation of all mankind. That didn’t make it any easier for her to bear, witnessing the whole ordeal. No other human being on earth has ever sacrificed as much as she did for God.

Was just reading over threads and posts and came back to this again.

Just wondering, if you happen to come back to this thread, whether your thinking is that the True Family of Jesus account in Matthew is actually a prophecy from Jesus’ lips, as he emotionally looks into the future at His own crucifixion; He has to give up everything - family, and especially His mother whom He brings to our attention and loves* so much *- and is aware that His mother, as you mentioned, is going to have to give Him up, her son, her everything, as the faithful disciple is asked to do in these two accounts?

I don’t think I’ve ever noticed a link to the crucifixion or viewed it as a prophecy and could never understand why it was that Matthew’s account seemed colder than Luke’s - which seems to acknowledge Mary - and almost disdainful.

So, thank you again Telstar, sincerely, for bringing warmth and enlightenment to my understanding of this passage in Matthew. And to dronald for raising important matters! It has been a pilgrimage of faith!

God bless

 

[Telstar]

Was just reading over threads and posts and came back to this again.

Just wondering, if you happen to come back to this thread, whether your thinking is that the True Family of Jesus account in Matthew is actually a prophecy from Jesus’ lips, as he emotionally looks into the future at His own crucifixion; He has to give up everything - family, and especially His mother whom He brings to our attention and loves* so much *- and is aware that His mother, as you mentioned, is going to have to give Him up, her son, her everything, as the faithful disciple is asked to do in these two accounts?

I don’t think I’ve ever noticed a link to the crucifixion or viewed it as a prophecy and could never understand why it was that Matthew’s account seemed colder than Luke’s - which seems to acknowledge Mary - and almost disdainful.

So, thank you again Telstar, sincerely, for bringing warmth and enlightenment to my understanding of this passage in Matthew. And to dronald for raising important matters! It has been a pilgrimage of faith!

God bless

That’s an excellent point! It is fairly clear in the Gospels that Jesus knew about some of the things that would happen to Him from the prophecies written about Him in scripture (and Mary most likely did, too), even if He didn’t know all of the details. I didn’t really think about His remarks in this situation being prophetic, but it’s easy to see that they could be interpreted that way. There were many other times when Jesus gave His disciples hints about what would happen to Him, and to them (“Matthew 20:18 Behold we go up to Jerusalem,…”, “Matthew 26:34 Amen I say to thee, that in this night before the cock crow, thou wilt deny me thrice.”, etc.), so this being one of those occasions is a good possibility.

This is why I love rereading the Gospels. No matter how many times I’ve read them before, there’s always a chance that I might find another hidden meaning within them, that I had never noticed or considered, before. Thank you for sharing this new little nugget with all of us. It is certainly food for thought.

It’s amazing how the Holy Ghost works through all of us as we continue to study scripture, isn’t it? I had never thought about this lesson reflecting Abraham and Isaac before, either. It just popped into my head as I was writing my post, and it made perfect sense that it really was connected. God definitely works in mysterious ways!

 

[friardchips]

It’s amazing how the Holy Ghost works through all of us as we continue to study scripture, isn’t it? I had never thought about this lesson reflecting Abraham and Isaac before, either. It just popped into my head as I was writing my post, and it made perfect sense that it really was connected. God definitely works in mysterious ways!

It certainly is, and He most certainly does!

 

[friardchips]

Telstar and dronald, I have been getting a bit confused with what accounts were actually being discussed!..(sorry, both)

there was the ‘Renouncing self to follow Jesus’?

…and I think there were snippets from ‘The True Family of Jesus.’

Renouncing self to follow Jesus (Matthew)

I’d say that the insights with the Abraham-Isaac link which then linked to the Crucifixion, which Telstar saw, is so vital to understand the sacrifice we have to make for ‘Renouncing self to follow Jesus.’ And what I added about prophecy is really not apt at all. The Abraham link is perfect and no more needs to be added to the meaning. Mary and the disciples are not even present necessarily in the passage so not really sure why, dronald, the passage was being used an example of measuring love between Our Lady and Jesus, although Jesus is saying we should love Him above all. No argument there.

True Family of Jesus (Matthew)

Jesus seems very happy with His mother and disciples and is lovingly using them as an example for all other mothers and future disciples. He is saying: if you want to go to heaven, be like these people here. So I am not sure again why this is being used as an example of lessening devotion to Our Lady? If we are being called to be like someone then we generally ask for their help

True Family of Jesus (Mark and Luke)

There is a passage in Mark and Luke too - Luke seems the coldest version and again I apologise for my memory of these accounts - but none of these accounts can seem disparaging because He is in all of them using Mary and the disciples as positive examples of people who go looking for him In other words, to imitate them is to imitate Him.

 

[friardchips]

Just wondering, if you happen to come back to this thread, whether your thinking is that the True Family of Jesus account in Matthew is actually a prophecy from Jesus’ lips, as he emotionally looks into the future at His own crucifixion; He has to give up everything - family, and especially His mother whom He brings to our attention and loves* so much *- and is aware that His mother, as you mentioned, is going to have to give Him up, her son, her everything, as the faithful disciple is asked to do in these two accounts?

So please ignore my post quoted here, this is completely wrong, and has nothing to do with ‘True Family of Jesus’… uch:

Sorry for completely confusing things! :imsorry:

 

[Petaro]

What shall one do if he would be far too uncomfortable taking part in such sayings?

This is one thing that’s kept me out of the CC.

Don’t pray to Mary. Pray directly to Jesus if you are more comfortable. No one should ever lose the Church on the basis of the intercession of the saints, even Mary. You miss a lot in ignoring this tradition, however you should realise that Catholicism is centered only in Jesus in the Holy Trinity of God, not His saints. Mary would expect nothing less as everything she did she did for Jesus and His Church.

 

[johnnyc176]

Don’t pray to Mary. Pray directly to Jesus if you are more comfortable. No one should ever lose the Church on the basis of the intercession of the saints, even Mary. You miss a lot in ignoring this tradition, however you should realise that Catholicism is centered only in Jesus in the Holy Trinity of God, not His saints. Mary would expect nothing less as everything she did she did for Jesus and His Church.

It should be stated though that, as Catholics, we must assent to the communion of the saints and when the Confiteor is said at Mass we are indeed asking for intercession from the Blessed Mother, angels and saints (as well as each other).

 

[Gorgias]

It should be stated though that, as Catholics, we must assent to the communion of the saints and when the Confiteor is said at Mass we are indeed asking for intercession from the Blessed Mother, angels and saints (as well as each other).

Right, but as far as dronald has mentioned (at least in this thread), it’s not intercessory prayer to the saints that’s bothering him, but devotion to Mary.

dronald:

I can’t imagine attending a Church consistently and never being able to take part in their rituals.

Dronald, I’m a bit confused by this. The ‘Hail Holy Queen’ isn’t part of any of the rituals of the Church: it’s not in the Mass, it’s not part of any of the sacramental rituals.

Or, perhaps you meant that you couldn’t, in good faith, take part in the Mass, knowing that you don’t have a certain level of devotion to Mary? Yet, that too isn’t required of Catholics. There’s a certain amount of doctrine about Mary, to which Catholics are asked to assent (even if, in principle, they’re still working toward understanding it and coming to grips with it); but that doctrine doesn’t include a requirement to have a particular style of devotion to Mary.

Simply put, a Catholic could “consistently … take part in the rituals” of the Catholic Church and never pray that prayer or exhibit a particular devotion to Mary. Perhaps you might explain what you mean by your assertion?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I love and respect Mary, Peter, Paul, Ignatius, my mother, etc as well. I just can’t wrap my head around saying the words said that have been quoted by the OP. I simply cannot do it.

Your problem is not really with the Virgin Mary. It is with Sanctifying Grace. You are unable to wrap your head around the fact that by the Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus, we have not only been saved and justified, but we have also been given the ABILITY to MERIT further Grace. This doctrine is taught by St. Paul in his letters. We have been GIVEN GRACE to MERIT still more Grace. This is the whole foundation of Mariology.

That is why abandoning the Catholic Church, which is the high road to Sanctifying Grace through the Sacraments, is so fatal. Everyone, rich or poor, smart or foolish, brilliant or dull, saint or sinner are all welcome at the abundant source of Sanctifying grace. But through lack of Faith, and erroneous doctrines, poor souls are being led away from the Church of Salvation.

 

[friardchips]

Don’t pray to Mary. Pray directly to Jesus if you are more comfortable. No one should ever lose the Church on the basis of the intercession of the saints, even Mary.

To suggest that anyone could become lost by trying to come to terms with various gifts of love that God has given for us to accept, especially to suggest that one could become lost during one’s apparent fear-filled journey of discovery about Mary, is like saying: trust in your own mistrust, and give up on your family. For example, some may not completely agree with the Pope on everything but we are still asked to be obedient and to support him. How much more are we asked to love the Mother of God?

Would it not have been more appropriate to suggest to dronald that he persevere in coming to terms with Our Lady’s role in the Catholic Church? To persevere in prayer. Not to abandon or give up his journey of deepening his faith but rather to keep asking questions and ponder upon them, while praying to the Saints, to Mary and to Jesus!

Would it not be more loyal to suggest that God loves Him and so a good way to reciprocate that love is to step into unfamiliar territory in hope and filial trust that God didn’t give us His Mother to trick us into prayers that find only an empty end?

You miss a lot in ignoring this tradition, however you should realise that Catholicism is centered only in Jesus in the Holy Trinity of God, not His saints.

Our Lady’s role is not just tradition, it stems from Holy Scripture. Jesus had reasons for saying ALL the things He said and did.

Mary would expect nothing less as everything she did she did for Jesus and His Church.

Yes, true. But does not a Mother want her children to love her? If Jesus offers His own Mother to us, is it not ungracious to accept the gift? How else does one show love to His Blessed Mother, other than to pray to her?

 

[friardchips]

…everything she [Mary] did she did for Jesus and His Church.

Petaro, just to add, this is actually a really lovely way of expressing love for Mary, lovely words, but your sentiment also sums up why we should encourage whole-hearted love for our Blessed Mother too

 

[dronald]

I love Mary, but I cannot speak to her as Catholics do. That’s about all.

It’s too rough on my conscience.

 

[Petaro]

I love Mary, but I cannot speak to her as Catholics do. That’s about all.

It’s too rough on my conscience.

I have been admonished by posts suggesting that my advice to you surrenders too much of our Catholic faith that is centered in Christ, but through His word and teaching also opens up an avenue of love for His mother, (whom I cherish) and His saints whose lives are examples to us on a very weary road. They are right of course, however I was trying to get you over your first hurdle, the specific words of the prayer.
If you accept, as you should (and must) as a Catholic, the Marian dogmas, then this true and more complete understanding of Mary’s place in our devotions is better understood intellectually.
This is where the extremely wise words of AmbroseSJ about sanctifying grace comes in.
I can only suggest you follow your conscience, but continue to inform it by a study of the Marian dogmas and pray to the Holy Spirit for the Paraclete’s gifts of wisdom and knowledge you received in confirmation.

 

[bubba1358]

Our Lady’s role is not just tradition, it stems from Holy Scripture.

Indeed, and so does this prayer. I did an analysis of Scripture a while back, and came up with the Biblical basis, line by line, for this prayer:

Hail Holy Queen
Hail! Holy Queen (Luke 1:28,42, Revelation 12),
Mother of Mercy (Psalm 103:8, Luke 1:43, John 10:30, James 3:17),
our life, our sweetness, and our hope (Romans 12:5, John 14:6, 1 Timothy 1:1).
To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve (Genesis 3:20-24) .
To you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears (Psalm 84:6) .
Turn then, O most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy toward us (John 2:1-11, 2 Timothy 1:2-3);
and after this our exile (Hebrews 11:13),
show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus (Luke 1:42).
O clement! O loving! O sweet Virgin Mary (Luke 1:48, Matthew 1:24-25)!
Pray for us (1 Timothy 2:1, Revelation 5:8 & 8:3-4) ,
O Holy Mother of God (Song of Solomon 6:9-10, Luke 1:43, Revelation 12),
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:5).

** Additional related verses: Matthew 8:13, 15:28, 17:3, & 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55, John 19:26-27, Romans 15:30–32, Ephesians 6:18–20, Colossians 4:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:25, 2 Thessalonians 3:1, James 5:16–18, Hebrews 12:22-23. **

Not that, as noted, some of these verses need to be pieced together, or taken in conjunction with others. So looking at the “Mother of Mercy” line, we see Mary as the mother of Christ, the Trinity as one from John 10:30, and mercy as a characteristic of Wisdom - the Holy Spirit.

Hope this helps.

 

[rfournier103]

What shall one do if he would be far too uncomfortable taking part in such sayings?

This is one thing that’s kept me out of the CC.

I have never been much of a “Mary guy” myself; and the only time I have ever said that prayer is for a rosary. And I don’t pray the rosary often.

My wife had a similar issue with that same prayer, but thanks to a very patient, knowledgeable, and kind priest who took the time to go through the prayer with her word-by-word; she was able to understand the prayer far better.

Have you considered making an appointment with a priest to discuss your reservations, dronald? You say this is one thing that has kept you from entering the Church; yet you’re still visiting us on a regular basis. So, there’s SOMETHING that’s keeping you close. As I said before, Mariology isn’t my bag - and I have been Catholic my entire life.

As I said, talk to a priest and get your explanations from the horse’s mouth. Good luck, dronald!

 

[dronald]

I have never been much of a “Mary guy” myself; and the only time I have ever said that prayer is for a rosary. And I don’t pray the rosary often.

My wife had a similar issue with that same prayer, but thanks to a very patient, knowledgeable, and kind priest who took the time to go through the prayer with her word-by-word; she was able to understand the prayer far better.

Have you considered making an appointment with a priest to discuss your reservations, dronald? You say this is one thing that has kept you from entering the Church; yet you’re still visiting us on a regular basis. So, there’s SOMETHING that’s keeping you close. As I said before, Mariology isn’t my bag - and I have been Catholic my entire life.

As I said, talk to a priest and get your explanations from the horse’s mouth. Good luck, dronald!

Yeah, it’s a big one for sure. There are other little things I observed while attending Mass that guaranteed I would feel out of place at a Catholic Church that I won’t go in to.

 

[ptisme]

I believe it’s also to show that we must love God more than anyone or anything. Another example:

Matthew 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

We must love Jesus more than anyone, including Mary.

Please show me a quote in the Catechism or by any Catholic on this site who advocates putting Mary above God. Catholics understand that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Getting accused of putting the Blessed Mother above our Lord is really getting tiring…

 

[dronald]

Please show me a quote in the Catechism or by any Catholic on this site who advocates putting Mary above God. Catholics understand that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Getting accused of putting the Blessed Mother above our Lord is really getting tiring…

Yes, I assume it would be tiring if others and myself were doing so. I can’t speak for others, but I did no such thing.

I’m responding to the claim that love is infinite, therefore one cannot measure loving God more than anyone else, because we love everyone infinitely. I believe one must love God more than anyone or anything else.

It’s been brought up to me once in another thread and again in this thread. Here’s one of the posts I was responding to in case you haven’t been reading the entire thread:

This is very unfortunate, because really it’s a question of changes in how we use the language. Used to be that we used very flowery poetic language; now we are instructed to make our writing practically skeletal in comparison

Consider that a mother can honestly say to her husband: You are my life! But she can also equally honestly say it to each of her children as well!

This is the thing about love: it can stretch infinitely. Words cannot express the totallity of our love. I love each of my children totally, and if I had enough, I would live him or her just as much!

Christ is our Lord and Savior, the Alpha and the Omega, so what we experience in relation to God is the highest. But our loving God does not preclude our loving our spouses, our parents, etc. Our love for God actually makes our love for them better!

It’s a conundrum: the more we love, the more love we have to love with.

I hope this helps