Hail, Holy Queen

[broski234]

There has always been ordination. However no one has the authority of an Apostle unless he saw Christ and was chosen by Christ to be an apostle.

Below Peter clearly spells out that when he dies he will provide a way that people can remember the witness of the apostles (scripture) he lets us know that his witness is true and that he didn’t make it up.

The following quotes support Peters keys and succession. These have already been listed for you. Perhaps you should re-read them! And maybe you should read 2 Peter 3:15-17

Jer. 33:17 - Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 - Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.

Isa. 22:20 - in the old Davidic kingdom, Eliakim succeeds Shebna as the chief steward of the household of God. The kingdom employs a mechanism of dynastic succession. King David was dead for centuries, but his kingdom is preserved through a succession of representatives.

Isa. 22:19 - Shebna is described as having an “office” and a “station.” An office, in order for it to be an office, has successors. In order for an earthly kingdom to last, a succession of representatives is required. This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Jesus our King is in heaven, but He has appointed a chief steward over His household with a plan for a succession of representatives.

Isa. 22:21 - Eliakim is called “father” or “papa” of God’s people. The word Pope used by Catholics to describe the chief steward of the earthly kingdom simply means papa or father in Italian. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church “Pope.” The Pope is the father of God’s people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ’s representative on earth.

Isa. 22:22 - we see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna to Eliakim. Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority, but also to facilitate succession. The keys of Christ’s kingdom have passed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with an unbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.

Acts 1:20 - we see in the early Church that successors are immediately chosen for the apostles’ offices. Just as the Church replaced Judas, it also replaced Peter with a successor after Peter’s death.

John 21:15-17; Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus’ creation of Peter’s office as chief shepherd with the keys passed to Linus, Cletus, Clement I, all the way to our current Holy Father.

Matt. 23:2 - this shows that the Jews understood the importance of succession to the chair and its attendant authority. Here, Jesus respects Moses’ seat (“cathedra”) of authority which was preserved by succession. In the Church, Peter’s seat is called the “cathedra,” and when Peter’s successor speaks officially on a matter of faith or morals, it may rise to the level of an “ex cathedra” (from the chair) teaching.

Eph. 3:21 - this divine word tells us that Jesus Christ’s Church will exist in all generations. Only the Catholic Church can prove by succession such existence. Our Protestant brothers and sisters become uncomfortable with this passage because it requires them to look for a Church that has existed for over 2,000 years. This means that all the other Christian denominations (some of which have been around even less than one year!) cannot be the church that Christ built upon the rock of Peter.

 

[DD2007]

The Bible speaks against you here. It says, in Matthew chapter 16 that the gates of Hades shall NEVER prevail against the Church. What you are purporting is heresy. You speak against the word of the Lord.

The gates of Hell has not prevailed against the Church. That is why we have reformed Christianity. Idol worship is not allowed in reformed Christianity. We only worship God.

Therefore the gates of hell has not prevailed against it. The evidence that there have been attempts is evident in the denominations that do justify idol worship.

 

[kobudodave]

You are reading into the scripture a little too much there, DD. It doesn’t say what you are purporting in there anywhere. And if it did, how could anyone trust Timothy, or any of the bishops given authority by the apostles?

 

[kobudodave]

The gates of Hell has not prevailed against the Church. That is why we have reformed Christianity. Idol worship is not allowed in reformed Christianity. We only worship God.

Therefore the gates of hell has not prevailed against it. The evidence that there have been attempts is evident in the denominations that do justify idol worship.

I disagree. The Bible speaks about this happening, that there will be those who go out from the Church, and teach false doctrine. And you are trying to tell us that the Church was in total heresy for 1500 years? Yeah… as if that isn’t the gates of hell prevailing… Even for a while, it would still have been prevailing for there to NEED to be a reformation.

 

[broski234]

The gates of Hell has not prevailed against the Church. That is why we have reformed Christianity. Idol worship is not allowed in reformed Christianity. We only worship God.

This is hilarious! Reformed Christianity, brother, is a terrible attempt at “restoring” Christ Church. It didn’t need restoring in the first place, but the fact that you can even speak of this is ridiculous. Protestantism is a heresy! Point blank…Look at all the splintering that has gone on within protestantism within the first hundred years of its existence, not to mention its entire existence. Do you realize that there is an abomination going on within protestantism? There are 5 new denominations starting up each month! There is no unity my brother in protestantism.

 

[DD2007]

You are reading into the scripture a little too much there, DD. It doesn’t say what you are purporting in there anywhere. And if it did, how could anyone trust Timothy, or any of the bishops given authority by the apostles?

Peter was clearly talking about leaving behind the witness of the Apostles in writing that will be considered scriptural.

2 Peter 1:10-21

[10] Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;
[11] so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Here he is reminding the Elect to live for Christ as a confirmation of their election.

[12] Therefore I intend always to remind you of these things, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.
[13] I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to arouse you by way of reminder,
[14] since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.
[15] And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

Peter knows he is going to die and needs to provide a means of lasting apostolic teaching.

[16] For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
[17] For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
[18] we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
[19] And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts

.

He wants us to understand that he and the others are eyewitnesses and did not make any of this up.

[20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
[21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Here he goes on to tell us that no prophecy that has been put into scripture was a matter of the writer’s own interpretation. It was not his impulse that was written. It was the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

It is clear what Peter’s intentions are.

 

[kobudodave]

Ok, so are you saying that Peter intended to write something down for them to remember? He didn’t. Only the epistles he wrote. And if you mean that all the apostles were joining in on this, well, only a few did. And STILL, not everyone had access to all of this. Even STILL, it would have had to be mainly ORAL. There is nothing in that passage that says it would be written for them. For all we know, it could just be that Peter intended on passing on to them the deposit of faith through the Holy Spirit. See, you are interpreting scripture to FIT what you want to see.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Give it up DD - the apostles mostly all thought Jesus’ return was imminent and there was no need to write things down. There was no writing assignments given out. No one had any idea of going out and writing a bible.There was “no plan” to ‘write NT scripture’.

The Apostles had no idea that what they were saying would eventually come to be called “The New Testament” after The Catholic Church assembled it (to combat Marcionism). It was only after it was clear that Jesus was not returning immediately and the aposltes were all dead that THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - decided that if they did not publish a Catholic Canon Marcion would redefine all of Christianity according to his own ideas of a religion with no Jewish History at all and a bible with no OT references in the NT at all.

James

 

[DD2007]

Give it up DD - the apostles mostly all thought Jesus’ return was imminent and there was no need to write things down. There was no writing assignments given out. No one had any idea of going out and writing a bible.There was “no plan” to ‘write NT scripture’.

The Apostles had no idea that what they were saying would eventually come to be called “The New Testament” after The Catholic Church assembled it (to combat Marcionism). It was only after it was clear that Jesus was not returning immediately and the aposltes were all dead that THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - decided that if they did not publish a Catholic Canon Marcion would redefine all of Christianity according to his own ideas of a religion with no Jewish History at all and a bible with no OT references in the NT at all.

James

Here is Peter claiming that the writings of Paul are scripture.

2 Peter 3:15-16
[15] And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
[16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures

He is actually warning people not to twist the scriptures! So this verse is a certain illustration that the New Testament Church used known scriptures and Peter is addressing problems that have already occured.

Here we hear that all scripture is inspired by God and profitable to make man COMPLETE.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

So you see, if scripture shows man how to be complete and equipped for every good work then we quickly notice that there are no prayers in scripture to anyone other than God! However, scripture does give us instruction on prayer. It tells us to pray to God. It also tells us to stay away from idolatry. So if we are to be complete we will learn that prayer is to God and idolatry is wicked.

So it is best to follow the scriptures as the Apostles intended, the way Christ did, the way God has found best to record His Word in our manner of speaking.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Jesus has given 4 distinct marks for how anyone can identify His Church. These are all in the bible in the same way that the Trinity is.

There is only ONE single Church on the planet that meets all these criteria:

Christ’s Church is:
ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC

ONE
Thus, the Church of the apostles was definitely one: “There is one body and one spirit,” Paul wrote, “just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all” (Eph. 4:4-5). Paul linked this primitive unity to the Church’s common Eucharistic bread: “Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of one bread” (1 Cor. 10:17). Jesus had promised at the outset that “there would be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16).

HOLY
Similarly, the Church of the apostles was holy. When we say that, we mean among other things that it had the all-holy God himself as author. We do not mean that all of its members have ceased to be sinners and have themselves become all-holy. On the contrary, the Church from the beginning, on her human side, has been composed of sinners: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (1 Tim. 1:15). The Church was founded for no other reason than to continue Christ’s redemptive and sanctifying work with them in the world.

One of the things implicit in the appellation “holy” as applied to the Church, then, is that the Church from the beginning has been endowed with the sacramental means to help make holy the sinners who are found in her ranks. The Church has been given the sacraments along with the word precisely in order to be able to help make sinners holy.

CATHOLIC
The third great historic mark or note of the one true Church was that this Church was Catholic. “Catholic” means “universal.” It refers as much to the fullness of the faith which it possesses as it does to the undeniable extension in both time and space which has characterized it virtually from the beginning. At the very beginning, of course, it was no doubt difficult to see how the “little flock” (Luke 12:32) of which the Church then consisted could by any stretch of the imagination qualify as “universal.” Still, just as the embryo contains in germ the whole human being, so the Church already contained the universality that would quickly begin to manifest itself.

It is not without significance that the Holy Spirit came down upon the Church at Pentecost at a time when “there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5). It was to them that the Holy Spirit temporarily enabled the apostles to speak in the languages of all these various nations–a powerful sign that the Church was destined for all men everywhere, represented at that first Pentecost in Jerusalem by those of many nations who had come there from afar. Many accepted the faith then and there and presumably began forthwith carrying “the Catholic Church” back to the four corners of the earth.

The Catholicity of the Church in any case resides as much in the fact that the Church is for everybody at all times as it does in the fact that it was indeed destined to spread everywhere throughout the whole world. Within a few years of the foundation of the Church, Paul was writing that “the word of truth . . . in the whole world . . . is bearing fruit and growing” (Col. 1:5-6).

APOSTOLIC
Finally, the Church that issued from the commission of Christ to the apostles was necessarily apostolic. Christ founded the Church upon the apostles and in no other way: “Did I not choose you, the twelve?” he asked them (John 6:70). The apostles of all people understood perfectly well that they did not set themselves up in their own little community, as we sometimes today see “gospel churches” set up in store fronts or in the suburbs. The New Testament teaches, “One does not take the honor upon himself” (Heb. 5:4).

Nothing is clearer, then, that the Church started out as “apostolic.” The question is whether the apostles had the power and authority to pass on to others what they had received from Christ. We have already seen that they very definitely did have this power and authority; the New Testament evidence is clear about that. The subsequent historical evidence is equally clear that they did pass it on to successors (the bishops). Indeed there are already references in the New Testament itself to the appointment of bishops by the apostles, as well as to the appointment of further bishops by them (Titus 1:5-9).

When we ask where, if anywhere, is to be found the same Church which the New Testament tells us Christ founded, we have to reformulate the question to ask: What Church, if any, descends in an unbroken line from the apostles of Jesus Christ (and also, not incidentally, possesses the other essential notes of the true Church of which the creed speaks)?

What Church, if any, is headed by a single recognized designated leader, just as the apostles of Jesus plainly functioned, on the evidence of the New Testament, under the headship of Peter?

Jesus said, “He who hears you, hears me” (Luke 10:16). Do we take these words seriously today?

Jesus said nothing more solemnly and categorically than these words, in which he declared that the apostles and their successors would speak for him in the serious business of gathering in and sanctifying his people and leading them toward the salvation he offers. Jesus intended that the fullness of his grace should come to his people in a Church that, from the beginning, was what the creed still calls it today: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

More Here: Four Marks Of The Church

How ironic that the Catholic Church is the ONLY church on the planet that actually calls itself "The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church and no one else challenges this title!

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Here is Peter claiming that the writings of Paul are scripture.

2 Peter 3:15-16
[15] And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
[16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures

He is actually warning people not to twist the scriptures! So this verse is a certain illustration that the New Testament Church used known scriptures and Peter is addressing problems that have already occurred.

Here we hear that all scripture is inspired by God and profitable to make man COMPLETE.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

So you see, if scripture shows man how to be complete and equipped for every good work then we quickly notice that there are no prayers in scripture to anyone other than God! However, scripture does give us instruction on prayer. It tells us to pray to God. It also tells us to stay away from idolatry. So if we are to be complete we will learn that prayer is to God and idolatry is wicked.

So it is best to follow the scriptures as the Apostles intended, the way Christ did, the way God has found best to record His Word in our manner of speaking.

When the apostles speak of scripture they are speaking of Old Testament scripture. Paul was revered among the early Christians as a scholar in OT scripture and when Peter is talking about his letters he is talking about his exposition of OT in the context of Christ’s teaching. Paul’s works are not yet recognized as formal NT scripture in this sense but rather “his” exegesis of OT scripture taken integratively with Christ’s teachings. His letters are just that - letters. If Peter thought Paul’s letters were scripture he would have addressed them consistently as scripture and not by the word “letters” in the same sentence. Peter is upset at the heresies ongoing that are twisting OT scriptures that relate to Christ’s message.

If Paul’s letters were considered scripture by The Church at the time of Paul then that would mean that God let us lose a good part of that scripture since Paul references some of his own letters in his epistles that are never seen again in the NT. They were lost in antiquity. Paul had no clear vision that his letters were to eventually become important works of what The Church now calls the New Testament.

Peter is mostly warning not to twist the oral gospel (good news) teaching that they are delivering and it was clear that there were early heresies in the fledgling church that were quite troubling and why Paul wanted to curse anyone preaching something different than was TAUGHT (not read) by the apostles.

Timothy is talking about Old Testament and in fact goes on to tell Christians to hold to traditions and teachings - a clear indication that Christ’s word is conveyed through authoritative teaching and through oral traditions.

James

 

[Little_Dove]

If the Bible alone was the way Christ intended for His church to continue after the death of the apostles, why does He never command them to “Go out and write down everything I told you to write?” If Christ had meant the bible to be the only authority, why didn’t He say so? Maybe He, Himself could have at least written the introduction. And, if say Christ gave this directive (to write) to His apostles in private (not recorded in scripture) why did half of them not obey? Now here, I am talking about the canon of scripture. Thomas, Nathaniel, Simon the Zealot, Andrew, Phillip, and after the resurrection, Matthias, who replaced Judas, none of these wrote anything that made it into the Canon of Scripture!
Does that mean that they didn’t do what Christ commanded them to do?
No! Because Christ’s directive to them was,
Matt 28:17-20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. Baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you. And know that I am with you always, until the end of the world.”

The mandate the apostles had from Christ was to teach. One inerrant way to teach is through Sacred Scripture properly interpreted by the successors of Peter and the bishops in union with him! Another inerrant way to teach is through the oral teaching of the Church- the Sacred Tradition! A mandate the Catholic Church has been fulfilling for more than two thousand years!

I’d like to say, to James and the other Catholic apologists, wow! I’ve learned a lot just by reading your postings! I’m just one person! Just so you know that what you have written has edified many of your Catholic brothers and sisters!

Thank you!
To Jesus, Through Mary

 

[CentralFLJames]

AD 251 and AD 428 are far beyond the Apostolic age. For all we know the Church could have been in total heresy by then all except for in a few local areas. We know that at the time of Augstine that exact scenario was the case with the widespread embrace of the Arian heresy. The ECF writings past the 1st century and the earlist part of the 2nd are only good for historical records and thouhtful spiritual examination.

They in no way should be thought to convey the authoritative teachings of the Apostles.

Here are some words about the Shepherd and one Mediator from scripture.

1 Timothy 2:5
[5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

John 10:14
[14] I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me,

Hebrews 13:20
[20] Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,

1 Peter 2:22-25
[22] He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
[23] When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.
[24] He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
[25] For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

1 Peter 5:1-4
[1] So I exhort the elders among you, **as a fellow elder **and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed.
[2] Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly,
[3] not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock.
[4] **And when the chief Shepherd **is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory.

Revelation 7:17 Edit Notice: I placed the above verse in the OP. I have edited and placed the correct one here.

[17] For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

But notice the consistent pattern of The Church constantly putting down every heresy and God using heresies as a means to prove who is the True Church and to rapidly develop her Dogma?

If you want to be worried and paranoid about an early take over of Christianity by impostors then you do not believe that God would not let the gates of hell prevail against His Church nor can you accept the bible you have in your hands as inspired becuase it was the Catholic Church that brought it forward and defended it all through history. It is entirely not plausible that God would protect The Catholic Church for 1500 years under a priestly ecclesial system only to let it be replaced by a neo-Christian teaching under secular leaders controlled by state governments. The Protestant denominations and model has all the earmarks of secularism and is a clear spring board for secular Messiahism - anti-Christ to exploit gullible people into serving him under an appearance of religion.

James

 

[mercygate]

broski234;4854229:

I own Jurgens Faith of the Early Fathers as well as Jesus Peter and the Keys. I have seen no evidence for any authority given to Peter passed to another from the earliest times 1st century. I don’t see anything really stating this until the 3rd century.

Jesus used Peter as an instrument to build up the Church and to pen some scripture. There is no evidence that any of that power was tranferrable to another. The mandate was for Peter, not any others who would minister to the Church after Peter was gone. Christ did not say to any of the Apostles that they could transfer their apostolic powers to others who had not been eyewitnessses.

1. Peter was an eyewitness apostle.
2. By grace God revealed who Christ was to Peter.
3. There are no apostles left after the ones that saw Christ died.
4. The New Testament writings were left for us as Apostolic Authoritative scripture.

Paul – not an eyewitness – received his apostolic commission from the Church at Damascus. Paul refers to the authority he conferred upon Timothy by the laying on of hands. The concept of Apostolic Succession is in Scripture.

 

[mercygate]

Thank you Brock… I was just about to do the same thing.

DD, not ALL powers were passed from the apostles to their successors. Obviously, there were some powers that were only intended to show as a sign to those around that they came from God. Since there were enough witnesses to those acts, it would seem that it is no longer needed. However, there are powers still needed, and afforded to the ordinaries of the Church, such as binding and loosing, absolving in the name of Christ, giving blessings, etc… These are through the Holy Spirit, so that the work of the Lord might continue to spread to the world.

Exactly. The powers of healing and raising the dead are not essential to salvation – and in fact, would contribute to great confusion if they were widespread.

The power to forgive sins and to restore the doomed to eternal life is THE essential message of the Gospel. And that the church has.

 

[DD2007]

DD2007;4854352:

Paul – not an eyewitness – received his apostolic commission from the Church at Damascus. Paul refers to the authority he conferred upon Timothy by the laying on of hands. The concept of Apostolic Succession is in Scripture.

Here is what made Paul a witness. He was given a direct commission by Christ:

Acts 9:1-6

[1] But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest
[2] and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
[3] Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him.
[4] And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
[5] And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting;
[6] but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”

1 Timothy is a letter from Paul who has appointed Timothy charge of a Church. So Timpthy is a Bishop he is not an apostle. Ordination of ministers is a need of the Church. Timothy was a minister.

 

[broski234]

DD2007;4854352:

Paul – not an eyewitness – received his apostolic commission from the Church at Damascus. Paul refers to the authority he conferred upon Timothy by the laying on of hands. The concept of Apostolic Succession is in Scripture.

I agree. I think there was a mess up. I was replying to a quote from dd

 

[DD2007]

mercygate;4857090:

I agree. I think there was a mess up. I was replying to a quote from dd

You have the quote above as from me but I didn’t write that.

Edit: What’s going on with the quoting? This quote isn’t the person I was quoting either. There seems to be a software bug.

 

[broski234]

broski234;4857731:

You have the quote above as from me but I didn’t write that.

Edit: What’s going on with the quoting? This quote isn’t the person I was quoting either. There seems to be a software bug.

I know, this happened yesterday too

 

[DD2007]

DD2007;4857925:

I know, this happened yesterday too

I’ve never seen this happen here before. It happens at CF all the time though.

CA seems to be a lot more stable than the other forums.