Hail, Holy Queen

[skeyes]

I say to all protestants, what Jesus said: “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her”. You don’t have to worry, you don’t have to fret, the Church can’t and won’t lead you astray. You are believing people with an agenda. Humility and trust that Jesus meant what He said with no reservations and eternal life beginning today can be yours in His Church, the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church. Quite simple, but wonderfully true and liberating. You just don’t have to come up with a new gospel. Peace!

In His service,
Stan

 

[adrift]

Actually we are supposed to make ourselves separate from Idolatry. The Catholic Church supports prayers like this one that is idolatrous. If one wants to make himself separate from Idolatry and make sure he doesn’t support it in some way he will find it hard to stay in the Catholic Church if he is a regenerate Christian. That is a major part of why we needed a Reformation in the first place to save Christianity from the heresy and false teaching of idolatry.

.

You have ignored both posts of 15 and 65. Just because you say it is idolatrous does not make it so. You than break the commandment of false witness. You have no idea what idolatry is. As I have said in the previous post, if you took the time to define it you would be hard put to make the accusations that you do.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Actually we are supposed to make ourselves separate from Idolatry. The Catholic Church supports prayers like this one that is idolatrous. If one wants to make himself separate from Idolatry and make sure he doesn’t support it in some way he will find it hard to stay in the Catholic Church if he is a regenerate Christian. That is a major part of why we needed a Reformation in the first place to save Christianity from the heresy and false teaching of idolatry.

Frankly, I think you have selective vision and a double standard and see idols only in The Catholic Church. Is the Christian Cross an idol? You are making your own personal opinion into an idol of self worship. Will you follow your own opinion into hell just to escape the illusion of the idols you imagine in everything but yourself? The only one who has a hard time staying in the Catholic Church is one who is a false believer or one who wants to follow his own personal beliefs or the one possessed by evil who can’t stand to be around the holy sacrifice of the Catholic mass.

The New Testament warned about false teachers that would come among you. Many protestants believe this happened in the tradition of the Catholic Church and the errors persist to this day in the form of idolatry.

Indeed. And this is why everyone should run from the false teaching of Protestantism. Protestantism is an entirely new gospel never before taught by any apostle or The Church - EVER. For 1500 years there has been only one mainstream Christian Church - The Catholic Church (and Orthodox who are substantially the same faith but are in schism and will come back some day).

Catholics know that Protestantism’s divisional character is intrinsically demonic in nature. It’s instability proves it. It has the mark of Cain all over its face. We know that this evil will eventually consume itself. We see it already in the 30,000+ Protestant factions and divisions and the constant splintering and infighting among Protestants. We see how it is now rapidly disintegrating as ordination of homosexuals and secularists and liberals (especially secularist females who want to teach that a woman has a God given right to abort their child at any time - sacrificing their child to Satan in exchange for the illusion of personal freedoms). We see the phony “prosperity salvation” preachers (“donate to The Lord through my club so you can be blessed and grow wealthy”) and the loud and obnoxious “in your face” screaming TV evangelicals. The latter seem to be either motivational speakers or ranting foaming at the mouth mad men who always seem to be angry at their congregations and audience.

We see the complete circus of Protestantism in the big revival tents and auditoriums where false healers and entertainers of ever sort push little old ladies off stage or onto the floor on their backs “to slay them in the spirit” and “heal them” (some getting their teeth knocked out “for the Lord”). We see the big commercial franchise mega churches all now trying to take advantage of the chaos among Protestants and get them to all come into one big building that offers one stop shopping of religion, day care, entertainment, cafeterias, schools and social networking (credit cards accepted). Yeah - just bring your bible - but don’t you dare disagree with the preacher or the armed men in the suits will drag you off and shake you down in the parking lot for disrupting the show, er ahem, services. We see rabid and ignorant fundamentalism in the “once saved always saved” club that makes it OK to sin and cheat on one’s spouse since once one believes in the Lord one can do no wrong.

Cut us Catholics a break with this idolatry nonsence. You have nothing to stand on.

Wake up and look around. What we see now is a mass migration of Protestant preachers into the Catholic Church as they start to realize that Protestantism is all a “house of cards” and they are worried that they just might be accountable to God for preaching their patently self contradictory nonsence.

I fully expect that the majority of mainline Protestantism will be disintegrated within 30-40 more years (if we have that much remaining time) and the clear error of “Buffet Christianity” will be banned as junk food; if not have a wooden stake driven through its heart to put it out of its misery before then.

Catholics no longer worry about the Protestant heresy - it will take care of itself. We see the bigger evil as an escalation of secularism and secular messianism. This is clearly the sign of anti-Christ at work and its time for true believers to prepare for the showdown.

Bottom Line - get into the Catholic Church while you still have time.

James

 

[mmplps7783]

Okay let me point out that Jesus himself called the cornerstone of the CHRISTIAN (because then it was not known as catholic) Church satan (Matthew 16:23) so to say that it is impossible for corruption in the church is not an accurate statement. Just because the church and Jesus are one does not mean that the leaders and jesus are always one. To think that is naive.
Also to make the comparrson of the protestant cross and the catholic statues of the saints is also a far stretch from reality.Protestants don’t sing to the cross or bow down to it or pary to it. Yes it is a symbol,a reminder but nothing more. The prayer, in the way that it is worded and spoken in all honesty can be construed as being worshipful of Mary. Just like you would have me open my mind to the truth try to see it from my point of view as well. I know that she is considered my mother as well and that I should honor her but not to the extent that some Catholics do.
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
To thee do we cry, poor banished
children of Eve, to thee do we send
up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley, of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us; and
after this our exile show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God

That we may be made worthy of the
promises of Christ.

Just take the words at face value without reading into it any of your explanations if I were to say that part is in the prayer that we say to peter…

 

[CentralFLJames]

Okay let me point out that Jesus himself called the cornerstone of the CHRISTIAN (because then it was not known as catholic) Church satan (Matthew 16:23) so to say that it is impossible for corruption in the church is not an accurate statement.
…

Just take the words at face value without reading into it any of your explanations if I were to say that part is in the prayer that we say to peter…

Those who make the charge that Catholics worship Mary do so only by constructing a false context to support the preposition that they WANT to see. To call this prayer idolatry or worship of Mary one must want to find it offensive and one must want to call it worship. If one asks a Catholic “hey - are you worshiping Mary” we will say “no - we are honoring the mother of the Lord”. But then to come back and say “no - I still think you worship Mary because my preacher told me you Catholics are all idol and Marian worshipers and I see you are” is to make yourself into false judges and to idolize the anti-Catholic stereotypes that empower your protestant high priest’s of opinion. You worship mere doctrines and opinions of men - judgementalism. You make Protest (that is Protestantism) into a thing of worship itself. You receive into your consciousness false teaching and other people’s opinions as if it was God Own judgement and make that a focus of contempt. That itself is idolatry. I say you all have no objective context or framework to see that you hold personal opinion as sacrosanct. You hold private opinion above truth and above what those you condemn say is not their intention.

Can Catholics undertand why some Protestants may be like this? Yes we can. We understand that the world is full of ignorance and bigots and those with easily manipulated minds who let other men control them through demagoguery and prejudice and who help give them the identities of those who put these ideas into their heads. Yes, Catholics certainly know too well why Protestants have these views and come to these conclusions - because some Protestants are possessed and controlled by the evil and narrow mindedness that other men have infected them with. Exorcism is one solution and another is getting empathetic and actually listening to what those who you are trying to condemn are telling you (which is “no”).

Let the exorcism begin - you will be better for it and thank me once we break the control and influence that ignorant and spiteful men have put over you with shackles of judgmentalism.

CONTEXT PEOPLE - YOU MUST LOOK AT CONTEXT.

Examine the simple lexical structure of the prayer in question.
The opening line “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy” is simultaneously emulating the Angel Gabriel’s lead in “Hail full of Grace” by acknowledging Mary in a SUBORDINATE role as Queen and Mother. The very fact that she is titled “Queen” states that she is under the King. The very fact that she is addressed as “Mother” acknowledges that she was subordinate to the Father who made her a mother by implanting His seed into her (traditionally a position that required the woman to be submissive and cooperative with Her husband). The term “Mother of Mercy” taken together as it is in upper case conveys a honorary title and “Mercy” is clearly her offspring that is highly valued - Jesus as Merciful God (which is also factual). Clearly it is the fact that Mary births the object of “Mercy” that she is revered - not that she is Mercy. The focus is on her accomplishment worked through her cooperative trust in God rather than on her personally. It will become apparent at the end of the prayer that a greater thing came out of a lessor thing. That is not worship of the lessor that is simply empathizing with the profoundness that each of us can produce a greater thing and be likewise honored and blessed if we emulate Mary’s example.

That is an analysis of the lead-in opening and salutation. Now look at the middle of the prayer.

“Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us;”

Clearly the role here is ADVOCATE. This term GUARANTEES a subordinate relationship to a higher authority since that is the role of an advocate - it is an arbitor to a Judge - who is clearly God.
Those who say this prayer thus far have acknowledged that there is a Judge (God) who is feared and respected for His absolute authority over them. Clearly, the fear and awe is there or they would not be petitioning and advocate for her influence. The expression “eyes of mercy” conveys the belief that a mother who can birth “Mercy” also has the attributes of mercy that her offspring (that is Jesus as Mercy) has. The prayer is thus acknowledging that mother and offspring share in common an attribute of mercy since a child will have the eyes of its parents - and the parents certainly saw eye to eye in order to have a licit union that resulted in pregnancy to start with.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from above]

As an additional comment let me also say here that this prayer has a lot of focus on the “eyes” (e.g tears, weeping, sorrow) since these were seen as the gateway to the soul and still are. The entire context is one of repentant tears of regret - things essential for a Christian to achieve salvation and rebirth. So there is also a recursive nature to the prayer of rebirth. Again - the greater Father is implicit. Breaking one’s water in tears is reminiscent of rebirth.

Now jump to the phrase “after this our exile show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;”. Again see that the prayer acknowledges the greater thing - “the fruit of thy womb Jesus”. Can there be any doubt who is revered highest? The prayer while implicating Mary as “blessed” actually withholds this biblical title and instead assigns it to Jesus and let’s mother become blessed indirectly through Jesus.

And now the grand finale and the Coup de grâce ('blow of Mercy" to put this beat topic to rest) - jump to the end phrase:

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

A simple request for her prayers no different than any of us does with each other. Here we see that the promises of Christ are what we hope and pray for - that we will be rescued from our tearful suffering and returned from our banishment to friendship with God.

**Now review the full entire structure of the prayer - it is completely encapsulated within a SUBORDINATE Mary (just like an arc or mother that holds the greater Jesus within her womb). A greater God is honored by worshiping the Jesus that is both within Mary (as a baby is in the womb) and also outside of Mary as the baby that is in the arms of its mother. **

Protestants simply can not fully embrace the profoundness of Emanuel - “God With Us” nor the full degree of trust that God has placed in frail humans to carry Him into the physical world. So, what Protestants really object to is the notion that God could be so meek and trusting as to be contained within a very blessed woman - but this is an unassailable fact. Nor do Protestant’s really like or acept the idea that God was in fact carried externally as a child by a mother in her arms and MARY WILL NOT put down the child Jesus in His cradle every time you want to enter into her household to worship Him. You don’t want to acknowledge her honored role or share any honor with Mary - you want a personal relationship with Jesus while ignoring Jesus’ family and closest loves. You don’t want to accept the possibility that Jesus could love somone more than you. In a word - you all are “jealous” of Mary and would rather put Jesus on the cross than give any possible veneration to Mary when you venerate Jesus (true worship is impossible without The Mass). But then of course you would fail to see that Mary is the one standing at the foot of the cross right there with Jesus.

Protestants are just not comfortable that that when they pray to Jesus He is simultaneously child, man, king and Son of God. As the Christ Child Mary gets to smile as she holds the child Jesus in her arms and so can’t escape being also honored anytime someone worships Jesus. And as a crucified man and messiah Mary again holds her Son in her arms taken off the cross for burial - but this time weeping through tears we all share in his vale of tears. Empathy people - empathy with our humanity. Protestants don’t quite consciously perceive it but you also subconsciously resent that the gifts that the magi brought to Jesus in worship (gold, frankincense and myrth) are entrusted to Jesus’ mother for safe keeping until He comes into manhood and Kingship. Meditate on where those gifts went and how they were used and then you might understand.

Protestants a simple question - “By what poison of man do you all come to resent Jesus’ mother?”

A just chastisement:
The problem is in the tradition for Protestant literalist interpretations. Catholics are much deeper and multi-dimensional in their thinking and spirituality than fundamentalist Protestants are. This reflects our deep spirituality and the fact that we are spiritually ambidextrous and speak, think simultaneously on many levels when we pray and worship. There is deep spiritual meaning and history and an integrative scriptural context behind our words of prayer. I am sorry if this sounds elitist - but you guys are in really in the minor league and are not worthy to judge Catholics. A student is not worthy to teach its teacher. This greater depth of worship that Catholics have extends directly from the spiritual gifts we receive through The Eucharist. Christ’s divinity draws us into a deeper relationship with God and weens us off the the spiritual mike and cookies that other deficient faiths are stuck on.

Get some context and get some understanding - start worshiping Jesus as you should and start getting to know the real Jesus and comming into Communion with Him through Eucharist. Stop judging and looking for things that are not there.

James

 

[mercygate]

What’s the point of this thread? It’s just a four-line conversation:

P: Catholics are idolatrous Mary-worshipers.

C: No. We do not worship her; we worship only God. We venerate Mary.

P: Same thing.

C: Not!

P: Is too!

C: No. It is not.

P: Your mother wears combat boots.

C: You bet she does!

 

[CentralFLJames]

What’s the point of this thread? It’s just a four-line conversation:

P: Catholics are idolatrous Mary-worshipers.

C: No. We do not worship her; we worship only God. We venerate Mary.

P: Same thing.

C: Not!

P: Is too!

C: No. It is not.

P: Your mother wears combat boots.

C: You bet she does!

I consider this a cry room that really does serve a constructive purpose. Where adult reason can not operate exhaustion will eventually prevail and quiet the place.

This discussion gives Protestants a forum for practising their faith through their only principal expressive means - Protest. Eventually Protestants will tire and come to realize that endless repetitious protest is not a biblical form of prayer. Eventually they will discover they don’t really have a prayer and therefor not a chance in changing anything and will go silent. At that point we prove the futility of protest and show that it is an ineffective form of prayer. The logical progression from there is stumbling into the virtue of silence and trust in God and in rediscovering our Catholic contemplative prayer form - where God does the talking in the quiet of one’s soul.

Once Protestantism loses its angry voice and goes into silent introspection it then loses its reason for existence. Thus, in the end, one by one, Mary will do just what Catholics have been saying God was working through Mary all along - that is crushing and silencing all heresies.

All we Catholics need to do is put up more Marian statues, more often pray aloud the Marian prayers in and around Protestants and then just patiently wait out the protests as Mary does her work of lullabying them all to peaceful sleep in Christ. We might take a few small bruises here and there (’… and his offspring shall bruise your’s heal’) - but really, such a trifle of a price to pay. I say victory - if not by skull crushing reason then most certainly by gentle rocking and motherly love…

Protestants - don’t mess with mom…

James

 

[DD2007]

All we Catholics need to do is put up more Marian statues, more often pray aloud the Marian prayers in and around Protestants and then just patiently wait out the protests as Mary does her work of lullabying them all to peaceful sleep in Christ. We might take a few small bruises here and there (’… and his offspring shall bruise your’s heal’) - but really, such a trifle of a price to pay. I say victory - if not by skull crushing reason then most certainly by gentle rocking and motherly love…

Protestants - don’t mess with mom…

James

All of Christianity will not degrade back into Marian heresies no matter how many idols you build or how many false teachings you preach telling people to pray to creatures instead of God.

Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. The Reformation is a strong example of the truth of that prophecy in that the very existance of Reformed Christianity shows that idolatry cannot prevail over the pure worship of God in spirit and truth in the Church.

So we will continue to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. We will charitably adminish sin when we see it, especially idolatry and false teachings. We will worship God alone and give all glory to Him.

John 14:6
[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

The commandments are clear aginst idolatry. It must be avoided.

Exodus 20:3-6
[3] "You shall have no other gods before me.
[4] "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
[5] you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
[6] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Proverbs 28:9
[9] If one turns away his ear from hearing the law,
even his prayer is an abomination.

 

[vee8]

Hail Holy Queen Mother Of Mercy… well who is Mercy? not Mary it is Jesus, so Hail Holy Queen Mother of Jesus and who is Jesus but our life our sweetness and our hope. We are asking her to help us by praying alongside us to be found worthy of heaven.

 

[CentralFLJames]

All of Christianity will not degrade back into Marian heresies no matter how many idols you build or how many false teachings you preach telling people to pray to creatures instead of God.

Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. The Reformation is a strong example of the truth of that prophecy in that the very existance of Reformed Christianity shows that idolatry cannot prevail over the pure worship of God in spirit and truth in the Church.

You are delusional if you think Jesus was talking to you or to a future rebellion against His Church. Jesus was speaking to St. Peter - the head of The Catholic Church and to the ecclesial office of the apostolic succession. Protestantism is not a church - it it scarcely an ecclesial community with 30,000 different and disjointed like minded protesters with nothing in common save baptism (though that is being phased out progressively by your sects) and common contempt for ecclesial authority. And the prophesy has proven to be true as Catholics have seperated the evil and rebellion of Protestantism from within her.

You are correct on one point The Catholic Church has put down the only known early Marian heresies that existed - but that was way back in the 370 AD time frame. Reference Epiphanius’ Panarion (Medicine Box [374-377]). He wrote against the the two extreme and diametrically opposed Marian heresies of his day, Collyridianism (which overly exalted Mary to Diety) and Antidicomarianitism, an Arabian movement that debased Mary’s status and virtues, to the point of claiming “that holy Mary had intercourse with a man, that is to say, Joseph, after the birth of Christ” (Panarion 78:1).

But Collyridianism, an ancient feminist movement stood alone as a heresy that sought to deify the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is explicitly condemned by the One True Church. But note that this was not Protestants or any other Christian cult that put these heresies down - it was solely Catholics. There was NO other group so bold to call itself Christians outside of the Catholic Church until Orthodoxy split off. As well, this is actually clear proof that the early Catholic Church, as the true Christians did in fact have an orthodox standard of reverence for Mary and never tolerated worship that elevated her to the level of worship equal to God.

It is only after Protestantism comes along and waters down all Christian worship by inventing new secular priesthoods or entirely dismissing the liturgies of the Christian worship in favor of singing and praying and simple oration of the Protestant salvation book (the Catholic Bible with a tithe tore out of it) that we get anyone so bold as to make unsubstantiated claims that Catholics worship Mary.

So yes, The Reformation is a strong example of the truth of that prophecy - but is on the wrong side of that prophesy and it has failed to pervert true Christianity with its neo-Christian philosophies and false gospel message.

So we will continue to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. We will charitably adminish sin when we see it, especially idolatry and false teachings. We will worship God alone and give all glory to Him.
…

And if you continue to preach the Protestant gospel you will fall under the apostolic curse for elevating mere human precepts as it they are divine and preaching a gospel that no one handed down to you. What Protestants teach was handed down to them by the reformers - NOT the apostolic succession priesthood.

Galatians 1:9
“As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!”

Can there be any wonder why Protestantism continued to fracture into 10s of thousands of denominations?

Protestantism - no history - no sense of reality - no authentic gospel - still saved? Highly dubious and only through ignorance not by faith…

James

 

[DD2007]

Protestantism - no history - no sense of reality - no authentic gospel - still saved? Highly dubious and only through ignorance not by faith…

James

There is only one Universal Christian Church. It includes baptized members of all the Christian denominations.

The Roman Catholic Church is nothing but another denomination within the Universal Church. The Vatican has no more authority than any denomination. It is obvious that it is not even an Orthodox denomination in the proof that it justifies idolatry which is a sin against God, and a direct disregard of the commandments.

Jesus said to enter by the narrow gate, beware of false prophets and we would know them by their fruits.

Idolatry is sour grapes.

Matthew:713-27
[13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
[15] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[16] You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
[17] So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.
[18] A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[20] Thus you will know them by their fruits.
[21] "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
[24] “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;
[25] and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
[26] And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand;
[27] and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.”

 

[broski234]

There is only one Universal Christian Church. It includes baptized members of all the Christian denominations.

And this church is the Catholic Church. This church is not an invisible church. It is a visible one: one body of Christ, one shepherd , one flock!

 

[DD2007]

And this church is the Catholic Church. This church is not an invisible church. It is a visible one: one body of Christ, one shepherd , one flock!

The Shepard is Christ. The flock is Christians.

 

[kobudodave]

There is only one Universal Christian Church. It includes baptized members of all the Christian denominations.

The Roman Catholic Church is nothing but another denomination within the Universal Church. The Vatican has no more authority than any denomination. It is obvious that it is not even an Orthodox denomination in the proof that it justifies idolatry which is a sin against God, and a direct disregard of the commandments.

Jesus said to enter by the narrow gate, beware of false prophets and we would know them by their fruits.

Idolatry is sour grapes.

Matthew:713-27
[13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
[15] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[16] You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
[17] So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.
[18] A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[20] Thus you will know them by their fruits.
[21] "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
[24] “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;
[25] and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
[26] And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand;
[27] and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.”

The problem here is, that you are defining things as idolatry, when in fact they are not. An idol is something that you worship. We do NOT worship Mary, nor do we worship the saints. Just because we ask them to pray for us, doesn’t mean we worship them. And just because we use a prayer to Mary asking for intercession, does NOT mean we worship her. You are misunderstanding the prayer. You misunderstand the words.

We have given you ample reason WHY it is not worship, and we have given you AMPLE explanation of the prayer itself. Mary is not mercy herself. Mary is not sweetness herself. Mary is not our life. She is the Mother of he who is those things. If she wasn’t a queen, would she wear a crown of stars? Why would she wear a crown if not a queen? We ARE her offspring. She IS our mother. And she IS our queen.

An analogy:
Just as the first born in a family would receive all the blessings of the father, so did Christ. Jesus is like our big brother. He was the first born. He, in place of the father, controls this family. But we do not forget the Mother of this family. She still holds a high place of honor, below the Father, and yet still now below the Son, but she still has an influence in the family. If your mother asked you to spare your brother, someone under your care, would you heed her request? Obviously you would. Most would.

Do you not understand intercessory prayer DD? I am curious. Is praying for your brother wrong? Definitely not. Is not our deceased brethren still alive in Christ? Of course! Now aren’t we all still in full communion with Christ through the blood which flows forwards and backwards through out time? Even after we die? YES! So why then, if our past brethren are still alive in Christ, can we not ask them to pray for us? We ask the saints to pray for us. And we ask Mary to pray for us. We do this by “praying” to them. But our praying is but merely asking for their help in intercessory prayer for us. It is not the same as praying to God.

 

[kobudodave]

The Shepard is Christ. The flock is Christians.

And our bishops (the pope is just the head bishop) speak for Christ, just as the apostles did, and just as the disciples of the apostles did. Christ gave the apostles the ability to bind and loose on earth, and have it enforceable in heaven.

 

[Seeking12]

You are delusional if you think Jesus was talking to you or to a future rebellion against His Church. Jesus was speaking to St. Peter - the head of The Catholic Church and to the ecclesial office of the apostolic succession. Protestantism is not a church - it it scarcely an ecclesial community with 30,000 different and disjointed like minded protesters with nothing in common save baptism (though that is being phased out progressively by your sects) and common contempt for ecclesial authority. And the prophesy has proven to be true as Catholics have seperated the evil and rebellion of Protestantism from within her.

You are correct on one point The Catholic Church has put down the only known early Marian heresies that existed - but that was way back in the 370 AD time frame. Reference Epiphanius’ Panarion (Medicine Box [374-377]). He wrote against the the two extreme and diametrically opposed Marian heresies of his day, Collyridianism (which overly exalted Mary to Diety) and Antidicomarianitism, an Arabian movement that debased Mary’s status and virtues, to the point of claiming “that holy Mary had intercourse with a man, that is to say, Joseph, after the birth of Christ” (Panarion 78:1).

But Collyridianism, an ancient feminist movement stood alone as a heresy that sought to deify the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is explicitly condemned by the One True Church. But note that this was not Protestants or any other Christian cult that put these heresies down - it was solely Catholics. There was NO other group so bold to call itself Christians outside of the Catholic Church until Orthodoxy split off. As well, this is actually clear proof that the early Catholic Church, as the true Christians did in fact have an orthodox standard of reverence for Mary and never tolerated worship that elevated her to the level of worship equal to God.

It is only after Protestantism comes along and waters down all Christian worship by inventing new secular priesthoods or entirely dismissing the liturgies of the Christian worship in favor of singing and praying and simple oration of the Protestant salvation book (the Catholic Bible with a tithe tore out of it) that we get anyone so bold as to make unsubstantiated claims that Catholics worship Mary.

So yes, The Reformation is a strong example of the truth of that prophecy - but is on the wrong side of that prophesy and it has failed to pervert true Christianity with its neo-Christian philosophies and false gospel message.

And if you continue to preach the Protestant gospel you will fall under the apostolic curse for elevating mere human precepts as it they are divine and preaching a gospel that no one handed down to you. What Protestants teach was handed down to them by the reformers - NOT the apostolic succession priesthood.

Galatians 1:9
“As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!”

Can there be any wonder why Protestantism continued to fracture into 10s of thousands of denominations?

Protestantism - no history - no sense of reality - no authentic gospel - still saved? Highly dubious and only through ignorance not by faith…

James

That problem, or apparent problem, is easily resolved; God works one heart at a time…hopefully yours will be next.

 

[broski234]

The Shepard is Christ. The flock is Christians.

And Jesus, as the Good Shepherd, left the keys with Peter. Christ left a visible head of His earthly church and that head is Peter, or the Pope.

 

[laverita]

2 Corinthians 6:16-18 is saying that God doesn’t dwell in idols, not that we should get rid of everything that is a reminder of to us of these things. Obviously, if God had intended us to get rid of all images and reminders through statues and the like, he would NOT have had Moses and Arron fashion a serpent staff for the Hebrews too look at when they got bitten by snakes, for it to heal them. So why does he say this, AFTER telling us the Commandment “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”?

Your argument here has nothing to do with this prayer. You obviously don’t understand the prayer, and you obviously don’t understand Mary’s role in our lives. Rev 12 tells us her role. It gives her an honorable image that we are to hold her with. Can you not see that?

The serpent is the look we have at Jesus being risen up, as you stated the people only had to look upon it to be healed “saved”. They did not pray, nor bow, but when he looked he lived. Why did the serpents come? Because the people spoke against God and Moses. Then they cried to Moses, We have sinned and Spoken against the LORD and you. Now notice that everyone who is bitten, when he looks is healed. It was for the fallen ones not all the people, just the ones bitten and dieing.

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” Num 21:8

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. Joh 3:14-15

In Revelation I see a picture and the history of the true bride, church of Christ. It gives us a brief review of its history and it does not fit the founding of the Catholic Church. I can understand your view that this is Mary that gave birth to Jesus. But if that is true she must have been before and after eternal like God, to much time is involved.

Revelation 12
The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

You see the point between verse 5 and 6 “And her Child was caught up to God and His throne”. This is the resurrection of Jesus.
What do we see next? The woman (church) fled into the wilderness. It does not indicate that she went to Rome and established herself, and in doing so all the pagan faiths were made illegal by the penalty of death. You use the same day for a year to determine the time as you also use other prophesy. 1260 days is 1260 years she went into the desert. This place is prepared for her and she was feed. I have trouble seeing Rome as being prepared and feeding Christians, a desert it is not, it is the center of the civilized world.

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Verse 12
Look Out Earth "For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Again we see the same in greater detail. 1260 years. From the presents of the dragon.
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time,(1260 years) from the presence of the serpent.
What was going on after the cross do we see the dragon after the church in history? The only fit is the Roman persecution, the destruction of Jerusalem both the Christians and the Jews suffered. The woman the church went into the desert (underground) this is also supported by Jesus when He said.

next post:

 

[laverita]

continued from above:

Mat 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Just before this in Matthew 23:38 we see Jesus leaving the temple desolate. It will be of no value any more the covenant made by Him is about to come and He will be cut off “Jesus” in the midst of this week (the 70th) by going to the cross. The end of the week is marked by Stephen “behold I see the Son of man STANDING at the right hand of God” no longer seated, but standing marking a change. The word now goes to the Gentiles the work of God in the Hebrews is complete.

Dan 9:24 “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of** sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy. **

Mat 23:38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

  Even until the consummation, which is determined,
  Is poured out on the desolate.”

Above we see the verse that Jesus was speaking of (see below) He was about to bring an end to sacrifice and offering. In the middle of His last week for the Jews. He was cut off “the cross” He confirmed the HIS NEW covenant with many for one week; after his resurrection. He shone Himself to Stephen marking the end of 70th week. The week that began at His baptism by John. He declared the temple desolate Matthew 23:38. The destruction the wrath and persecution of the woman in Rev 12 was about to start. When she will flee to the wilderness “desert”. And Jesus says when you see this, flee to the mountains. I see this mirrored in Rev 12. The dragon is pissed after the cross, looking to destroy the woman.
In Dan 9:26 And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
Rome destroy the city and the sanctuary. The people of the prince who is to come, nether did the Jews or Christians destroy the temple so the prince of these people is not Holy. The prince, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

Mat 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

So when did the 1260 years end, and the woman “church” came out of the desert? Noting but the fall of Rome and the dark ages after the cross. A very dark time for men. We do have the “Universal” Catholic Church. But the time is not quite right. Rome went from embracing all religions and killing Christians, destroying Jerusalem. To killing pagans and supporting the Catholic Church. I wonder If the integration of all those pagan faiths into the Universal Church gave rise to tradition?

Temples that survived were converted into Christian churches: the Pantheon is the most notable example, having once been a temple to all the gods and later becoming a church in honor of all the saints. Many of the buildings in the Roman Forum were similarly converted, preserving the structures if not their original intent.