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broski234
Guest
When Catholics honor Mary, we are imitating Jesus. Please read the following article:
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9405fea2sb.asp
It should shed some light on Marian Devotion. Hope this helps!
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catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9405fea2sb.asp
It should shed some light on Marian Devotion. Hope this helps!
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
your example almost makes sense, if you said Jesus was the chef and Mary is the handmaid who serves the food. Jesus, the New Adam, and Mary, the New Eve, work together; this is Christ’s will.
I like how one saint said:
Is it not fitting that grace should return to its Author by the same channel that conveyed it to us?
~ S†. Bernard
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kobudodave
Guest
Mothers are often honored for raising a child that did something amazing.
Your bit about “If I am the the source of a good meal would you call my mother a chef?”, NO. I wouldn’t. We don’t call Mary God because she mothered him, now do we?! That would be ridiculous.
If you were the source of a really good meal, we might give you praise by telling your mother what a great child she raised, and how well you can cook. She then shares in your praise. The honor is also hers to receive because she raised you and taught you.
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DD2007
Guest
I used to say that prayer every morning on the way to work. I’ve covered the terminology.
I believe it is an idolatrous prayer. I have left those practices.
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davidv
Guest
Just because you make it so for yourself, does not make it so for anyone else.
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DD2007
Guest
I’m not a relativist. Your statement is a relativist statement. You may disagree with me. But the truth is that one of us is wrong.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Ahh, now you are getting into the deeper aspects of Mariology here by referencing the OT. There is a lot of prefiguring of the proper role of Mary here.Hmm. I wonder what King Solomon would have said about this attitude towards HIS Queen Mother, Bathsheba?
She seemed to have pretty much praise and power.
To wit:
Psalm 45:9 - the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God’s kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.
1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.
1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.
1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.
1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.
2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.
Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.
It gets more intense if you want to go deeper. I have participated in a recent thread where I gave quite a bit of this insight. For now contemplate Mary as Daughter Zion and see if Lamentations does not fit perfectly with Mary in the wake of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. Put Lamentations through Mary’s eyes and tell me you can’t see her here…
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
The truth is you must admit you are fallible and therefor can not escape making yourself a hypocrite by denying others their own private interpretations of scripture and practise now can you? This is why The Church must be infallable since it is “the foundation and pillar of truth”. And by associating yourself with a plurality of faiths (Protestantism) you are in fact a relativist since again you can not as a Protestant deny anyone else their own right to their own truth and their own private interpretation. This is by definition pluralism and it is by definition “relative” since there is no standard of objective truth other than “every man with a bible his own pope”.
Frankly, you have also proven yourself fallible and error prone by leaving the Church since at one time you apparently did have access to the one homogeneous true faith but have rejected it in favor of the forked tounge of plurality. That is sad and many have taken the same path…
As for your opinion that the HHQ Marian prayer is blasphemous worship it is sufficient to say all that matters here is what is God’s opinion since yours is irrelevant in a pluralistic belief system. I bet you would have found the magi to be blasphemous for presenting gifts to the trust of Mary for Her son and for bowing to Christ with mother (The Christ Child in her arms).
Having said this let me see if I can now get you to consider that you are clueless about what constitutes worship. Do you think you worship God by prayer and hymn? To Catholics this falls way short of true worship as much as Cain’s fell short of true worship and Abel’s was acceptable. One can not offer up to God blemished sacrifice and also please God. There is only one sacrifice fully acceptable to God and that is the remembrance of the one pure sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. This is true perfect worship that Catholics do every day 24/7 East-to-West before God. This is called “latria” worship - perfect worship. So what you call worship and what Catholics call worship are worlds apart. What honors we bestow to Mary are only a form of worship called hyperdulia - prayer from a sincere heart that is in a state of repentant and sanctifying grace. Compare this to your form worship and you see that you only achieve what we Catholics call mere dulia forms of worship (since without sacramental confession you lack the ability to stay sanctified in high grace).
So there you go. You are being a relativist again since you don’t even properly worship God much less have any basis for calling a higher level forms of Catholic worship blasphemous.
You need to get enlightened by the true apostolic faith and recalibrate your sense of spiritual reality before you can make these pithy judgements of yours since they just sound absurd.
Bottom Line Catholics give God true worship in the mass and venerate Mary in prayer. Nothing on this planet can exceed the worship of the Catholic Mass (and Orthodox) since it gives to God the one thing that pleases Him above all others. Non-Catholics lacking the true sacrifice of the mass or a valid apostolic priesthood can only venerate God and to a lesser degree if so inclined could scarcely even honor a saint at the same level Catholics do.
Can there be any reason as to why you have such contempt for Catholic veneration of Mary when it exceeds what you can do for worship of God? Could it be you are just as Jealous as Cain was of Abel?
James
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DD2007
Guest
I’ve already given my 2 cents. People can try to rationalize idolatry all they want. However, spiritual things are discerned by the spirit. I am happy to leave this prayer in the books.
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mercygate
Guest
Today on the radio, Fundamentalist Evangelical J Vernon McGee whose program, “Through the Bible,” still airs 20 years after his death, talked about the word “worship.” He explained it in the context of English etymology as meaning “respect based on worth.” Certainly that applies to Mary.
One need not be Catholic to see Our Lady as the Mother of mercy, life, sweetness, and hope.
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hosemonkey
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broski234
Guest
Please tell me, what makes your interpretations correct, and mine not? Are you infallible? If you are not, then could you be wrong in your interpretation here? Is it possible?
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kobudodave
Guest
God is not dumb to our needs. This is why we have been given the institution of the Church, the Holy Catholic Church, so that we are not thrown about by every wind of doctrine. Their interpretation, if you want to call it that (I prefer understanding), is the only interpretation that matters. The Holy Spirit guides the Church, just as it says in the NT, through the Pope and the Bishops and the Priests, even the Deacons. It was the same way in the Old Testament and is the same way today. God doesn’t change. He may change things, but He Himself does not change. God has always presented Himself to us in the same fashions, through prophecy and through His Church. And as the Church lends it’s members to God as a Holy Temple, IE, we are now the temple of God, there is still a hierarchy.
Now, if that hierarchy has always proclaimed Mary with honor and prestige, then it MUST be accurate, in as much as we can discern. The Bible DOES proclaim that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth, so if the Church says that Mary is to be honored (which God proclaimed through Gabriel, his messenger, to Mary), then who are we to argue with the truth?
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DD2007
Guest
I am convicted of the necessity of the reformation in sheding light on the errors of the RCC. I agree with reformed theology. I believe that God used the reformation to show us that scripture needs to be followed.
You’re interpretations are those that the reformation came about to reform because they were are in error and need reformed.
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broski234
Guest
I agree!
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broski234
Guest
Says who? Someone who came 1500 years after the fact? Someone by the name of Martin Luther? Please! The only thing that came out of the “deformations” were more schisms. Schisms that opened Pandoras Box. Once you let the cat out, it’s hard to get her back in! The reformation caused extreme divisions in the body of Christ DD. Those divisions are ever more apparent today and our protestant brothers and sisters are dividing like math each week. Or I should say multiplying creating further divisions! Brother, tell me exactly how the Catholic Church doesn’t follow scripture and how the Church views scripture. I will save you the time. She wrote it! There is nothing in scripture that contradicts the Catholic Faith my friend, just fallible interpretations by fallible men (i.e. Martin Luther, John Calvin,etc)
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CentralFLJames
Guest
But there is absolutely no precedence in heaven or on earth for God EVER tolerating a rebellion against His authority or against His Church.
Look what happened to Lucifer!
Look what happened to Korah when he tried to usurp Moses!
Korah was swallowed whole into hell and his 200 followers were incinerated by holy fire from heaven into a heap of charred and smoldering remains - only their incense censures consecrated to God survived and were hammered into a altar plate.
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Jude 1:11
“These men revile things they do not understand, and things which they know by instinct. woe to them, for they have gone the way of Cain and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam and perished in the rebellion of Korah”.*
The Protestant pattern of error and rebellion is given in scripture by the men Cain (insincere/unacceptable sacrifice to God), Balaam (who tried to profit from prophesy and force God’s own words against Himself to force His wrath on His own people), and by Korah (who attempted to usurp Moses’ divinely given authority). All the lessons of these three infamous biblical men are seen in Protestants (e.g. self assigned authority, rebellion against the divine office, false worship with invalid priestly orders, simony and preaching for hire). That’s a complete strike out.
I am sorry - but I have to speak frankly because I really think that the situation is very grave for Protestants.
I don’t want to imagine what became of Luther and the other reformers on their day of judgement.
James
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kobudodave
Guest
If you are to believe in the Reformation, then you disagree with the Bible. In Matthew 16 at verse 18, it says the gates of Hades will never overcome the Church. If the Reformation needed to correct the so called lies and bring the Church back to the truth, that would mean that the gates of Hades had overcome the Church until Martin Luther decided that he wanted to do things differently.
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roselily
Guest
May Lord Jesus and Holy Mother Mary bless all who trust in Jesus Christ!
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you.
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you.
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Timmy_Z
Guest
Hold on. Earlier in this thread the RC response was: “Jesus is the source of all these things and She is His mother, therefore she is the Mother of all these things as well.”
The prayer calls Mary our hope. Is she? Is your hope in Mary??
-Tim
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