Hail, Holy Queen

[CentralFLJames]

CentralFLJames;4839182:

Clearly from this empty rhetoric and projection of fallacy we can conclude that DD thinks he speaks for God and feels threatened by the historical facts.

God speaks and operates through His Church.

It would seem that DD believes that mere possession of the bible guarantees salvation. Isn’t that idolatry or fetishism?

God gave us common sense. And after entertaining your comments and reading your words I am convinced you are irrational and you worship your own opinion. That too is idolatry.

Shame on you.

James
DD2007;4838918:

That downstream variation you posted has no grounding in reason. God gave us the bible

. Jesus is the Son of God. He came down to atone for the sins of mankind.

The Catholic Church does not control the decisions of God. They claim his work as their own many times. But the truth is He is God and will get the bible into the hands of who he will and he will save who he will.

God gave us the bible. After reading it I’m convinced that the prayer that is the topic of this thread is indeed worshipful of Mary and is therefore wrong.

Do tell what lead you to this false conclusion…

This post is downright uncharitable.

Sadly DD has maneuvered himself with his own words into a position of judgment and thereby his own judgement and his own words force him to either admit that he can only offer an arbitrary competing personal opinion (in the protestant traditional protest to Catholic practise) or else he must make an attempt to claim infallibility. Opting for the latter will make him a blatant hypocrite and put him out of camp with the Protestant party line on condemnation of the Catholic dogma of Papal infallibility.

The man has painted himself into a corner of hubris and error from which he can not extricate himself without painting himself in the same color of his own judgement as either a hypocrite or worse. It seems to me his only honorable recourse is to admit he is wrong and apologize for slandering Catholics as Marian worshipers (in his sense of the word) or else he must remain in his corner in silence and in clear view of where his words have landed him.

If that is a false conclusion then I submit that your invitation to present the evidence was rhetorical and you are of the same general opinion and find yourself painted into the same corner.

My comments are in direct proportion to the charity that DD imputed to all Catholics in his general implication that Catholics think we control God’s decisions and in his pompous conviction that Catholics give inappropriate worship to Mary in a popular prayer. But note my restraint in restricting my comments to just him rather than extending them to the much larger class of all Protestants as he did in imputing to Catholics.

As it now stands DD should have learned a clear lesson that at best he can do is argue to a draw in offsetting opinions and to get out of the corner he must withdraw his opinionated charges against Catholics which we have demonstrated are poorly formed.

http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn...scartoons/cartoonists/tbr/lowres/tbrn168l.jpg

James

 

[DD2007]

Sadly DD has maneuvered himself with his own words into a position of judgment and thereby his own judgement and his own words force him to either admit that he can only offer an arbitrary competing personal opinion (in the protestant traditional protest to Catholic practise) or else he must make an attempt to claim infallibility. Opting for the latter will make him a blatant hypocrite and put him out of camp with the Protestant party line on condemnation of the Catholic dogma of Papal infallibility.

The man has painted himself into a corner of hubris and error from which he can not extricate himself without painting himself in the same color of his own judgement as either a hypocrite or worse. It seems to me his only honorable recourse is to admit he is wrong and apologize for slandering Catholics as Marian worshipers (in his sense of the word) or else he must remain in his corner in silence and in clear view of where his words have landed him.

If that is a false conclusion then I submit that your invitation to present the evidence was rhetorical and you are of the same general opinion and find yourself painted into the same corner.

My comments are in direct proportion to the charity that DD imputed to all Catholics in his general implication that Catholics think we control God’s decisions and in his pompous conviction that Catholics give inappropriate worship to Mary in a popular prayer. But note my restraint in restricting my comments to just him rather than extending them to the much larger class of all Protestants as he did in imputing to Catholics.

As it now stands DD should have learned a clear lesson that at best he can do is argue to a draw in offsetting opinions and to get out of the corner he must withdraw his opinionated charges against Catholics which we have demonstrated are poorly formed.

http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn...scartoons/cartoonists/tbr/lowres/tbrn168l.jpg

James

You seem to have a clear misunderstanding of basic conversation. All of your claims against me are wrong. You are clearly on the defensive about your wild conclusions. You misrepresent the things I said and falsely accuse me on a personal level.

This thread is about the subject of the OP. The question was about why Fr. Serpa’s answer was so bad. I gave my position that when it’s idoloatry it’s prety hard ot hide…etc.

I have made no judgements upon Catholics. However I have made it quite clear that I believe their leadership is in error and that this prayer is idolatrous.

I really have nothing more to say on this topic. I will leave the floor to anyone else who would like to chime in. I’ve said my part.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

My comments are in direct proportion to the charity that DD imputed to all Catholics in his general implication that Catholics think we control God’s decisions and in his pompous conviction that Catholics give inappropriate worship to Mary in a popular prayer.

I saw him stating observationally…NOT imputing to ALL Catholics, that the worship catholics attach to Mary is unbiblical…I tend to agree, not surprisingly.

 

[DD2007]

I saw him stating observationally…NOT imputing to ALL Catholics, that the worship catholics attach to Mary is unbiblical…I tend to agree, not surprisingly.

Thanks. I don’t understand the violent reaction. I spoke plainly. I didn’t even use hyperbole.

 

[adrift]

This thread is about the subject of the OP. The question was about why Fr. Serpa’s answer was so bad. I gave my position that when it’s idoloatry it’s prety hard ot hide…etc.

I think you need to reread the OP it is NOT about Fr. Serpa

But the answer provided didn’t fully resolve the issue for me.

His answer was not bad at all just that it didn’t resolve all of the OP’s issues

I have made no judgements upon Catholics. However I have made it quite clear that I believe their leadership is in error and that this prayer is idolatrous.

I wonder what you consider a judgement? You need to define idolatry.
You never answered my previous post and I understand why because if you really started to define you would find that your judgement is wrong.
Idolatry

1 : the worship of a physical object as a god

So when you say the prayer is Idolatrous you are saying that it is a worship of a god. You cannot show that Catholics believe Mary is a god therefore you fail in your unfounded opinion.

 

[broski234]

the Holy Spirit used people in the Church to protect it. We do not acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church wrote or gave the world the bible. The bible is God’s work and we recieved it by his grace alone.

Which Church did the Holy Spirit use to protect it? It most definitely was the Catholic Church who preserved the bible over the last 2000 years. Who do you think canonized it? What sources are you getting your information from to say that the Catholic Church didn’t “give it to the world?”

 

[broski234]

This syndrome is familar.

Many people deny that God chose to produce the New Testament and to promulgate the canon of Scripture through the Church, despite the historical facts, just so they don’t have to acknowledge the role of the Church in the propagation of the faith.

You’re right about that!

 

[CentralFLJames]

I saw him stating observationally…NOT imputing to ALL Catholics, that the worship catholics attach to Mary is unbiblical…I tend to agree, not surprisingly.

Thanks. I don’t understand the violent reaction. I spoke plainly. I didn’t even use hyperbole.

Listen guys. I am not really interested in getting into a “he-said she-said” bickering scenario here. If we start bantering back and forth on this the thread will be shut down for getting off topic or degrading into uncharitable dialog. That would be a shame since apart from this spat here there is some good information presented.

The OP is not looking for personal judgements of Catholics or in making condemnations but for Catholic insights. So the judgements such as DD’s are not useful to dialog and only serve to make himself feel self righteous and end up derailing the dialog. If someone is not comfortable with the prayer let him judge his own comfort levels rather than judge Catholics as wrong. Let such a person say “I am not comfortable with the Marian prayers since to me they are getting into the realm of worship” and let him state his reasons. That is a valid personal opinion that is not imputing a judgement on all Catholics.

But the following is an example of judging Catholics and what will cause a lot of resentment by Catholics and turn this OP into a contest of wits and rhetoric if any want to continue down this path.

1. The Catholic Church does not control the decisions of God.
2. I’m convinced that the prayer that is the topic of this thread is indeed worshipful of Mary and is therefore wrong.

#1 Is a clear biased and unsubstantiated judgement that Catholics imagine they control God.

#2 Is a clear judgement that does not substantiate “the objective why” that any Catholics who use this prayer must therefor worship Mary. It does not address the OP and only makes the opinion maker feel self righteous at someone else’s’ expense. And in light of the widespread use of this prayer it is essentially stating that quite a substantial number of Catholics worship Mary but he does not give any rationale at all behind the judgement and no way to rebutt the charge. It is just a naked charge with no substance behind it.

Let’s get back to stating objective reasons why someone might think the prayer is worship and addressing the substantial rebuttals Catholics have made.

James

 

[TommyWommy]

The OP is not looking for personal judgements of Catholics or in making condemnations but for Catholic insights.

And Fr. Serpa’s answer wasn’t bad. It was more of an appetizer for me (the OP).

 

[mmplps7783]

For the record, I disagree that the preservation of the bible is accredited to the Roman Catholic Church. To “open ones eyes” to such error would be counter productive and a gross denial of reality.

I believe that the Holy Spirit preserved the bible. God compelled people as he saw fit to preserve the bible. If such a thing was left up to man then it would have certainly been lost. Remeber no single denomination was used as the sole tool. The Eastern Churches have the bible as well. The Protestant Churches have the bible as well. The protestants recognize that we got the OT from the Jews who God used to preserve it and the New Testament from the Apostles and the Holy Spirit used people in the Church to protect it. So for OT we believe the witness of the Jews for the NT we believe the witness of the Apostles and believe that those are the authentic writings that the Spirit had preserved.

We do not acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church wrote or gave the world the bible. The bible is God’s work and we recieved it by his grace alone.

First of all if you are going to reply to a post that I made please be sure to quote me correctly. I did NOT say that the Catholics wrote the bible I said they PUT IT TOGETHER! Their version came out before the King James Version. So how about it if you get your facts straight first thank you very much.
Secondly, I agree that the spirit led people to protect the writings but if you could just answer one question 1)during that era (i think it’s like 400 AD, I might be wrong) how many "denominations were there?

 

[broski234]

And Fr. Serpa’s answer wasn’t bad. It was more of an appetizer for me (the OP).

Can I get a 2nd

 

[DD2007]

The bottom line is that this prayer is regarded by most protestants as a heretical and idolatrous prayer. One main reason there is a separation in the Church is because the protestants fear God and don’t want to participate in idolatry.

So, the safer bet is to not participate in idolatry or support the spread of it. As a person who is a protestant in large part due to the desire to escape idolatry I would be lying to you if I held any other position.

That’s why I think that Fr. Serpas answer was obviously a tap dance, because ther isn’t any good answers to support idolatry in light of scripture.

Rev 19:10
[10] Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Gal 1:6-10
[6] I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel --[7] not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
[8] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
[9] As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
[10] Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ.

1 John 5:21
[21] Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

 

[kobudodave]

DD, I can understand your position, actually. There is a fine line between Marian worship, and Marian honor. The same goes for the Saints. As Catholics, those of us who are, we must take extra precaution to not let it cross that line. With that said, there is history that you have to take into account.

The question was, is praying the Hail, Holy Queen prayer heretical? Not in and of itself. In order to make something idolatrous, there has to be intent given to take the honor away from God, or to place such honor ABOVE God. In the Decalogue, God says “You shall have no strange gods before me.” the key word here is BEFORE. If I draw a line in the sand, and I place God in the center of that line, the left side being before God, and the right side being after God, I place all things under God to be AFTER God on the right side of that line. Now, the commandment that I mentioned contains God’s dislike in idols, or things of worship that either take God’s place, or that you hold higher than God. If you place any of those equally or BEFORE God, you are failing to uphold God’s command.

Worship, in the Hebrew, is shehhah, which doesn’t mean what we use it for today. Shehhah means to prostrate oneself before another in respect. It is the equivalent of saluting your commander in chief in the military, or shaking the hand of the worlds most renowned scientist. Shehhah is the act of getting on your knees and putting your face down to the ground before someone worthy of respect. And certainly we do this to God. But Moses, setting a prescident for us, in Exodus 18:7 bowed down before his father-in-law with shehhah. This doesn’t mean that his father-in-law was being placed above and before God, however, he was being given the respect he deserved.

Mary, likewise, is deserving of respect. She is the Mother of our Lord and Master, and through out history, the Mother of the King is seen as everything BUT a normal person. She is shown respect, for she is the first influence of the King. From birth to being let go on their own, the Mother has been there, nurturing the growth of that person, both mentally and physically. Jesus loved Mary so much, he honored her request at the wedding at Canna. He loved her so much that he gave her to one of his most trusted and beloved disciples, John.

In the book of Revelation, in chapter 12, you have Mary, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of stars on her head. Now, why would God give John this envisioning of her, if she was not full of the honor that we Catholics give her? And why would God give her special treatment, a place in the desert to hide, obviously in his solace? She was given wings. As well, the book of Revelation tells us that we, as Christians are her offspring.

You see, we venerate Mary as we would our own mothers. She gave us our Hope. She gave us our sweetness. She gave us our Lord. Our Lord, Jesus Christ IS all of those things. And if you are looking at that prayer, with the intent of calling Mary those things outside of the grace that God instilled into her, as our mother, our new Eve, the one through whom those things were given, need to take a step back and look at what they are doing. Because, as I said, there is a fine line between Marian honor and Marian worship, or deifying her. I am sorry to say that there are Catholics who do this. Perhaps it is because they don’t know better. Perhaps they do. But that isn’t a teaching of the Church itself, to worship Mary. But we SHOULD Shehhah her. Not so much physically, but spiritually, we should recognize her for her role. We just need to be careful to not deify her.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The bottom line is that this prayer is regarded by most protestants as a heretical and idolatrous prayer. One main reason there is a separation in the Church is because the protestants fear God and don’t want to participate in idolatry.

So, the safer bet is to not participate in idolatry or support the spread of it. As a person who is a protestant in large part due to the desire to escape idolatry I would be lying to you if I held any other position.

…

Well Catholics of course regard every Protestant as either a direct heretic or as one participating in a heretical movement through ignorance. This is why no orthodox Catholic who knows his Catechism will ever worship with a Protestant since it gives an improper impression that Catholics consider Protestant worship licit or else risks giving the false impression that Protestants are in communion with The Church. From the Catholic perspective its an outrage to say it mildly for a heretic to ever call Catholics idol worshipers since we see you as heretics who are all in a gravely deficient faith that puts you at severe risk of being judged as enemies of God for promoting disunity and spreading calumny.

The safer bet is to become Catholic and if that prayer makes you uncomfortable - don’t say it. You are looking at the small stuff and missing the bigger thing. You don’t obey Christ in the least by separating yourself from The Church and rejecting ecclesial authority and not confessing your sins, repenting and receiving Eucharist.

James

 

[kobudodave]

Well Catholics of course regard every Protestant as either a direct heretic or as one participating in a heretical movement through ignorance. This is why no orthodox Catholic who knows his Catechism will ever worship with a Protestant since it gives an improper impression that Catholics consider Protestant worship licit or else risks giving the false impression that Protestants are in communion with The Church. From the Catholic perspective its an outrage to say it mildly for a heretic to ever call Catholics idol worshipers since we see you as heretics who are all in a gravely deficient faith that puts you at severe risk of being judged as enemies of God for promoting disunity and spreading calumny.

The safer bet is to become Catholic and if that prayer makes you uncomfortable - don’t say it. You are looking at the small stuff and missing the bigger thing. You don’t obey Christ in the least by separating yourself from The Church and rejecting ecclesial authority and not confessing your sins, repenting and receiving Eucharist.

James

Well put.

 

[Little_Dove]

DD2007,
What is your understanding of the Commandment, “Honor thy Father and thy Mother?”

God Bless!
To Jesus, Through Mary

 

[broski234]

Well Catholics of course regard every Protestant as either a direct heretic or as one participating in a heretical movement through ignorance. This is why no orthodox Catholic who knows his Catechism will ever worship with a Protestant since it gives an improper impression that Catholics consider Protestant worship licit or else risks giving the false impression that Protestants are in communion with The Church. From the Catholic perspective its an outrage to say it mildly for a heretic to ever call Catholics idol worshipers since we see you as heretics who are all in a gravely deficient faith that puts you at severe risk of being judged as enemies of God for promoting disunity and spreading calumny.

The safer bet is to become Catholic and if that prayer makes you uncomfortable - don’t say it. You are looking at the small stuff and missing the bigger thing. You don’t obey Christ in the least by separating yourself from The Church and rejecting ecclesial authority and not confessing your sins, repenting and receiving Eucharist.

James

Yes, well put indeed!

 

[DD2007]

Well Catholics of course regard every Protestant as either a direct heretic or as one participating in a heretical movement through ignorance. This is why no orthodox Catholic who knows his Catechism will ever worship with a Protestant since it gives an improper impression that Catholics consider Protestant worship licit or else risks giving the false impression that Protestants are in communion with The Church. From the Catholic perspective its an outrage to say it mildly for a heretic to ever call Catholics idol worshipers since we see you as heretics who are all in a gravely deficient faith that puts you at severe risk of being judged as enemies of God for promoting disunity and spreading calumny.

The safer bet is to become Catholic and if that prayer makes you uncomfortable - don’t say it. You are looking at the small stuff and missing the bigger thing. You don’t obey Christ in the least by separating yourself from The Church and rejecting ecclesial authority and not confessing your sins, repenting and receiving Eucharist.

James

Actually we are supposed to make ourselves separate from Idolatry. The Catholic Church supports prayers like this one that is idolatrous. If one wants to make himself separate from Idolatry and make sure he doesn’t support it in some way he will find it hard to stay in the Catholic Church if he is a regenerate Christian. That is a major part of why we needed a Reformation in the first place to save Christianity from the heresy and false teaching of idolatry.

2 Corinthians 6:16-18
[16] What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will live in them and move among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
[17] Therefore come out from them,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch nothing unclean;
then I will welcome you,
[18] and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”

The New Testament warned about false teachers that would come among you. Many protestants believe this happened in the tradition of the Catholic Church and the errors persist to this day in the form of idolatry.

2 Peter 2:1-4
[1] But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
[2] And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
[3] And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.
[4] For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;

The commandments are clear aginst idolatry. It must be avoided.

Exodus 20:3-6
[3] "You shall have no other gods before me.
[4] "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
[5] you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
[6] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Prayer is a form of worship

Luke 2:37
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

We are to worship only God. God has commanded against idolatry many times. It is all over the bible. If one has ever read the bible at all he will get the message to stay away from idols and all forms of idolatry.

 

[kobudodave]

Actually we are supposed to make ourselves separate from Idolatry. The Catholic Church supports prayers like this one that is idolatrous. If one wants to make himself separate from Idolatry and make sure he doesn’t support it in some way he will find it hard to stay in the Catholic Church if he is a regenerate Christian. That is a major part of why we needed a Reformation in the first place to save Christianity from the heresy and false teaching of idolatry.

2 Corinthians 6:16-18
[16] What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will live in them and move among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
[17] Therefore come out from them,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch nothing unclean;
then I will welcome you,
[18] and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”

The New Testament warned about false teachers that would come among you. Many protestants believe this happened in the tradition of the Catholic Church and the errors persist to this day in the form of idolatry.

2 Peter 2:1-4
[1] But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
[2] And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
[3] And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.
[4] For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;

The commandments are clear aginst idolatry. It must be avoided.

Exodus 20:3-6
[3] "You shall have no other gods before me.
[4] "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
[5] you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
[6] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Prayer is a form of worship

Luke 2:37
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

We are to worship only God. God has commanded against idolatry many times. It is all over the bible. If one has ever read the bible at all he will get the message to stay away from idols and all forms of idolatry.

2 Corinthians 6:16-18 is saying that God doesn’t dwell in idols, not that we should get rid of everything that is a reminder of to us of these things. Obviously, if God had intended us to get rid of all images and reminders through statues and the like, he would NOT have had Moses and Arron fashion a serpent staff for the Hebrews too look at when they got bitten by snakes, for it to heal them. So why does he say this, AFTER telling us the Commandment “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”?

Your argument here has nothing to do with this prayer. You obviously don’t understand the prayer, and you obviously don’t understand Mary’s role in our lives. Rev 12 tells us her role. It gives her an honorable image that we are to hold her with. Can you not see that?

 

[roselily]

Luck 1:46-55

Mary’s Song of Praise

"And Mary said,
‘My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God
my Saviour,
for he has looked with favour on
the lowliness of his servant.
Surely, from now on all
generations will call
me blessed;
for the Mighty One has done
great things for me,
and holy is his name.
His mercy is for those who fear
him
from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with
his arm;
he has scattered the proud in
the thoughts of their hearts.
He has brought down the
powerful from their thrones,
and lifted the lowly;
he has filled the hungry with
good things,
and sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
according to the promise he
made to our ancestors,
to Abraham and to his
descendants for ever.’ "
Luck 1:46-55

Praise the Lord!
The Hail! Holy Queen