Hail, Holy Queen

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HAIL! Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, O most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus. O clement! O loving! O sweet Virgin Mary!
Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
 
Hold on. Earlier in this thread the RC response was: “Jesus is the source of all these things and She is His mother, therefore she is the Mother of all these things as well.”

The prayer calls Mary our hope. Is she? Is your hope in Mary??

-Tim
Let’s not get too excited here. This prayer called the Salve Regina was originally written in Latin and the Latin words were selected for poetic and tonal effect to meet certain musical chant modes and meter cadences. That is, this prayer and original Latin words was composed in part for their melodic effect, phrasing and intonation as much as for the devotional message. It loses quite a bit of that original expressive dimensionality and depth in the modern English translation.

It may be interesting to note that some early sentimental Protestants (Lutherans) were unwilling that it should disappear from Lutheran churches. These reconstructed it “evangelically” (e.g., a version in use at Erfurt in 1525: “Salve Rex aeternae misericordiae”.) to preserve it since early Protestants, being Catholic in origin revered Mary and insisted on keeping with the beloved Catholic Marian chant that was often played in the bell towers all around the Christian world. This continued up till various Protestant mobs, rabid with fear of Catholic influence and incited by the rhetoric of the reformers, take it upon themselves to destroy all Catholic art forms and statues of Mary and the saints. In no time they purge all Catholic saintly devotional prayers from their liturgies and prayer/hymn books and centuries of priceless art-forms are eviscerated from Protestant Churches (which were taken over and annexed from Catholics).

The language in the Salvae Regina is in the “devotional style” and is not dogmatic Catholic teaching. Thus Catholics can place their hope in Mary as intercessor just as much as we can place our hope in each other for their prayers and intentions in our times of need without worry that we are deprecating or subordinating our hope in Jesus as savior. It was Jesus after all who gave His Mother to all Christians at the foot of the cross.

Do you consider it an affront to God to “hope” that Mary will pray for you when you are ill or most in need of prayer and assistance?

I don’t think God would find any reason to be confused by our affections for the mother of Jesus nor let it become a vain hope to presume that the “mother of God” will not gladly join her efficacious prayers to ours in our time of critical need and in particular at our hour of death.

And since when does the Christian virtue of hope become a point of division between Christians??? Such division and fear is not becoming of a child of God nor is it of God.

James
 
Salve Regina in original Latin (aka Hail Holy Queen)
*
Salve, Regina, Mater misericordiae,
vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve.
ad te clamamus
exsules filii Hevae,
ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes
in hac lacrimarum valle.
Eia, ergo, advocata nostra, illos tuos
misericordes oculos ad nos converte;
et Jesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui,
nobis post hoc exsilium ostende.
O clemens, O pia, O dulcis Virgo Maria. *

===

The Divine Office offers the following hymn as an alternative to the Latin and gives more insight into the intention of the original hymn.

Hail, our Queen and Mother blest!
Joy when all was sadness,
Life and hope you gave mankind,
Mother of our gladness!
Children of the sinful Eve,
Sinless Eve, befriend us,
Exiled in this vale of tears:
Strength and comfort send us!

Pray for us, O Patroness,
Be our consolation!
Lead us home to see your Son,
Jesus, our salvation!
Gracious are you, full of grace,
Loving as none other,
Joy of heaven and joy of earth,
Mary, God’s own Mother!

Catholic missals generally list two or three verses similar to the following:

Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail, Mother of mercy and of love, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!

Our life, our sweetness here below, O Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!

And when our last breath leaves us, O Maria!
Show us thy son Christ Jesus, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!

As with many hymns, many more verses exist, but are rarely printed or sung. The Latin text from which these verses are translated is:

Salve Regina coelitum, O Maria!
Sors unica terrigenum, O Maria!
Jubilate, Cherubim,
Exsultate, Seraphim!
Consonante perpetim:
Salve, Salve, Salve Regina.

Mater misericordiae, O Maria!
Dulcis parens clementiae, O Maria!
Jubilate, Cherubim,
Exsultate, Seraphim!
Consonante perpetim:
Salve, Salve, Salve Regina

Hear it here: youtube.com/watch?v=OB_7xyx6mhs
and a Gregorian Mode Chant Here: youtube.com/watch?v=d5p_U8J0iRQ&feature=related
and one more version here: youtube.com/watch?v=iF0r70MA680&feature=related

James
 
This is why The Church must be infallable since it is “the foundation and pillar of truth”… there is no standard of objective truth other than “every man with a bible his own pope”.

Having said this let me see if I can now get you to consider that you are clueless about what constitutes worship. Do you think you worship God by prayer and hymn? To Catholics this falls way short of true worship as much as Cain’s fell short of true worship and Abel’s was acceptable. One can not offer up to God blemished sacrifice and also please God. There is only one sacrifice fully acceptable to God and that is the remembrance of the one pure sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. This is true perfect worship that Catholics do every day 24/7 East-to-West before God. This is called “latria” worship - perfect worship. So what you call worship and what Catholics call worship are worlds apart. What honors we bestow to Mary are only a form of worship called hyperdulia - prayer from a sincere heart that is in a state of repentant and sanctifying grace. Compare this to your form worship and you see that you only achieve what we Catholics call mere dulia forms of worship (since without sacramental confession you lack the ability to stay sanctified in high grace)…
you don’t even properly worship God much less have any basis for calling a higher level forms of Catholic worship blasphemous.

You need to get enlightened by the true apostolic faith and recalibrate your sense of spiritual reality before you can make these pithy judgements of yours since they just sound absurd.

Bottom Line Catholics give God true worship in the mass and venerate Mary in prayer. Nothing on this planet can exceed the worship of the Catholic Mass (and Orthodox) since it gives to God the one thing that pleases Him above all others. Non-Catholics lacking the true sacrifice of the mass or a valid apostolic priesthood can only venerate God and to a lesser degree if so inclined could scarcely even honor a saint at the same level Catholics do.

Can there be any reason as to why you have such contempt for Catholic veneration of Mary when it exceeds what you can do for worship of God? Could it be you are just as Jealous as Cain was of Abel? 😉

James
WOW!!! Talk about the anger. I am not saying that as a “protestant” I am on his side but I will say this. I was very appalled by Luis in post #2 (adrift gave the link to his post)
hi, my name is luis and i’m a portuguese catholic. in general i did like what you wrote. yes, we do worship Mary. i do it every single day. i love to consecrate my life to Her. this pleases God. She is the one who’s gonna defeat satan. God gave the Virgin Mary the power to combat the power of darkness, with the great help of our Arcangel Michael. She is the most humble person who walked on earth and so and due to that humility that satan is gonna be defeated. it’s that example of humility that ultimately is gonna humiliate satan and defeat him.

I’m not sure but that seems pretty confusing to me. On one hand Catholics say they don’t worship Mary but this guy is saying that not only does he worship her…he believes that she is the one that will defeat the devil. WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE. Help me out people. Most people say that it is the protestant church that is divided but so are catholics (or at least that is how it seems to me from reading some of the posts). In defense of my protestant brothers and sisters I will point out a program that comes on Univision called La Rosa de Guadalupe (The rose of Mary) anyway as you can imagine the whole point (of these short stories) is how these people pray to Mary (not once do they show prayer to Jesus) and how their prayers get answered. To me an outsider that is above and beyond what I feel is appropriate “veneration”. Don’t get me wrong I don’t think that it is the goal of Catholics to “worship” Mary but sometimes to an outsider that is how it appears.
Something else I want to point out is that just like many Catholics that are Catholics just because that’s how they grew up and they are happy with that, there are protestants that r the same. Before coming to this site i had NO IDEA that it was the Catholic Church that put the Bible together. Nor did i know that the monasteries were the ones that defended the Holy Bible from fires, water, ect… so if you could cut back alittle on the judgements and realize that there is a real opportunity to open eyes.
 
Salve Regina in original Latin (aka Hail Holy Queen)
*
Salve, Regina, Mater misericordiae,
vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve.
ad te clamamus
exsules filii Hevae,
ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes
in hac lacrimarum valle.
Eia, ergo, advocata nostra, illos tuos
misericordes oculos ad nos converte;
et Jesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui,
nobis post hoc exsilium ostende.
O clemens, O pia, O dulcis Virgo Maria. *

===

The Divine Office offers the following hymn as an alternative to the Latin and gives more insight into the intention of the original hymn.

Hail, our Queen and Mother blest!
Joy when all was sadness,
Life and hope you gave mankind,
Mother of our gladness!
Children of the sinful Eve,
Sinless Eve, befriend us,
Exiled in this vale of tears:
Strength and comfort send us!

Pray for us, O Patroness,
Be our consolation!
Lead us home to see your Son,
Jesus, our salvation!
Gracious are you, full of grace,
Loving as none other,
Joy of heaven and joy of earth,
Mary, God’s own Mother!

Catholic missals generally list two or three verses similar to the following:

Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above, O Maria!
Hail, Mother of mercy and of love, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!

Our life, our sweetness here below, O Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!

And when our last breath leaves us, O Maria!
Show us thy son Christ Jesus, O Maria!
Triumph all ye cherubim!
Sing with us ye seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!

As with many hymns, many more verses exist, but are rarely printed or sung. The Latin text from which these verses are translated is:

Salve Regina coelitum, O Maria!
Sors unica terrigenum, O Maria!
Jubilate, Cherubim,
Exsultate, Seraphim!
Consonante perpetim:
Salve, Salve, Salve Regina.

Mater misericordiae, O Maria!
Dulcis parens clementiae, O Maria!
Jubilate, Cherubim,
Exsultate, Seraphim!
Consonante perpetim:
Salve, Salve, Salve Regina

Hear it here: youtube.com/watch?v=OB_7xyx6mhs
and a Gregorian Mode Chant Here: youtube.com/watch?v=d5p_U8J0iRQ&feature=related
and one more version here: youtube.com/watch?v=iF0r70MA680&feature=related

James
That is great! I know that song. My school choir sang the version from Sister Act! I loved that movie but it never clicked for me that you guys were talking about that song.👍
 
Before coming to this site i had NO IDEA that it was the Catholic Church that put the Bible together. Nor did i know that the monasteries were the ones that defended the Holy Bible from fires, water, ect… so if you could cut back alittle on the judgements and realize that there is a real opportunity to open eyes.
For the record, I disagree that the preservation of the bible is accredited to the Roman Catholic Church. To “open ones eyes” to such error would be counter productive and a gross denial of reality.

I believe that the Holy Spirit preserved the bible. God compelled people as he saw fit to preserve the bible. If such a thing was left up to man then it would have certainly been lost. Remeber no single denomination was used as the sole tool. The Eastern Churches have the bible as well. The Protestant Churches have the bible as well. The protestants recognize that we got the OT from the Jews who God used to preserve it and the New Testament from the Apostles and the Holy Spirit used people in the Church to protect it. So for OT we believe the witness of the Jews for the NT we believe the witness of the Apostles and believe that those are the authentic writings that the Spirit had preserved.

We do not acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church wrote or gave the world the bible. The bible is God’s work and we recieved it by his grace alone.
 
I seen you post a bunch of references to Queens from the bible.
This looks like a Queen to me, She also makes some great claims verse 30. I high lighted some notable points. On the surface She apears to be present to mankind. See verse 4 “ To you, O men, I call, And my voice is to the sons of men.
My questions is how does Mary fit or not fit here.

1 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
4 “ To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 For my mouth will speak truth;
Wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
Nothing crooked or perverse is in them.
9 They are all plain to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver,
And knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 For wisdom is better than rubies,
And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.
12 “ I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles,
All the judges of the earth.[a]
17 I love those who love me,
And those who seek me diligently will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me,
Enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold,
And my revenue than choice silver.
20 I traverse the way of righteousness,
In the midst of the paths of justice,
21 That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth,
That I may fill their treasuries.
22 “ The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 “ Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;
36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.”
 
For the record, I disagree that the preservation of the bible is accredited to the Roman Catholic Church. To “open ones eyes” to such error would be counter productive and a gross denial of reality.

I believe that the Holy Spirit preserved the bible. God compelled people as he saw fit to preserve the bible. If such a thing was left up to man then it would have certainly been lost. Remeber no single denomination was used as the sole tool. The Eastern Churches have the bible as well. The Protestant Churches have the bible as well. The protestants recognize that we got the OT from the Jews who God used to preserve it and the New Testament from the Apostles and the Holy Spirit used people in the Church to protect it. So for OT we believe the witness of the Jews for the NT we believe the witness of the Apostles and believe that those are the authentic writings that the Spirit had preserved.

We do not acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church wrote or gave the world the bible. The bible is God’s work and we recieved it by his grace alone.
God gave the Church the charge of teaching, through the apostles, and their successors, by giving them the Holy Spirit, and the gifts their of to discern God’s will and the love of Christ to the masses. Do you think everything they taught is in the Bible? That is an impossibility. And to discredit the apostles own disciples, their students, of whom were given the deposit of faith to do the same as the apostles, to teach and discern through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in them, is absurd.

Christ never said to “write” my teachings. It was always given orally, and told to be given orally. Now, that is not to say that what we have isn’t inspired scripture. It is. But that inspired scripture, written for instruction to a distant place that couldn’t be dealt with in person, surely isn’t the only thing there was in that day concerning faith and Christ’s message. It would take an infinite number of pages to contain the fullness of the teachings of Christ. And since we only have a couple thousand or so (OT & NT), we have to assume there is more. We have to look at the traditional teaching that we know comes from the apostles, through their students. In the first and second centuries, we have writings, letters, from the students of the apostles, the successors, who wrote to churches as well, like Clement I. He wrote some 20 odd letters or so to the church at Corinth. And they used THOSE as scripture as well. Why? Because they KNEW that he was entrusted with that deposit of faith. The same goes for Timothy. He was entrusted the same way. He was a student. Who was given authority to discern the will of God through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Holy Spirit preserved the Bible. No question. But it was through the Church. They were the keepers of the faith, entrusted with that deposit, to be kept pure by the Holy Spirit. No one is saying the the RC gave or wrote the Bible to the world. Not in the sense you are claiming that we are.
 
For the record, I disagree that the preservation of the bible is accredited to the Roman Catholic Church. To “open ones eyes” to such error would be counter productive and a gross denial of reality.

I believe that the Holy Spirit preserved the bible. God compelled people as he saw fit to preserve the bible. If such a thing was left up to man then it would have certainly been lost. Remeber no single denomination was used as the sole tool. The Eastern Churches have the bible as well. The Protestant Churches have the bible as well. The protestants recognize that we got the OT from the Jews who God used to preserve it and the New Testament from the Apostles and the Holy Spirit used people in the Church to protect it. So for OT we believe the witness of the Jews for the NT we believe the witness of the Apostles and believe that those are the authentic writings that the Spirit had preserved.

We do not acknowledge that the Roman Catholic Church wrote or gave the world the bible. The bible is God’s work and we recieved it by his grace alone.
This syndrome is familar.

Many people deny that God chose to produce the New Testament and to promulgate the canon of Scripture through the Church, despite the historical facts, just so they don’t have to acknowledge the role of the Church in the propagation of the faith.

This is a downstream variation of the idea that God doesn’t need to become Man in order to save the world, therefore Jesus is not the Son of God.
 
WOW!!! Talk about the anger. I am not saying that as a “protestant” I am on his side but I will say this. I was very appalled by Luis in post #2 (adrift gave the link to his post)
Anger? No - not even a single exclamation mark or all caps. Annoyed at the ignorance and calumny I am hearing on this topic by fundamental Protestants? Very much so. Worried too that those who are propagating many of these negative views of Catholics are really setting themselves up for calamity since evil always goes out and returns full circle with greater harm to its source/originator in an endless progression until somone breaks that chain with the goodness of God.
I’m not sure but that seems pretty confusing to me. On one hand Catholics say they don’t worship Mary but this guy is saying that not only does he worship her…he believes that she is the one that will defeat the devil. WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE. Help me out people. Most people say that it is the protestant church that is divided but so are catholics (or at least that is how it seems to me from reading some of the posts). In defense of my protestant brothers and sisters I will point out a program that comes on Univision called La Rosa de Guadalupe (The rose of Mary) anyway as you can imagine the whole point (of these short stories) is how these people pray to Mary (not once do they show prayer to Jesus) and how their prayers get answered. To me an outsider that is above and beyond what I feel is appropriate “veneration”. Don’t get me wrong I don’t think that it is the goal of Catholics to “worship” Mary but sometimes to an outsider that is how it appears.
Some of this is a word or semantic issue. Protestants only know one thing called “worship”. But in Catholicism, we have 3 levels of “worship”. Simple honor is called “dulia”. Higher forms of veneration like we give to Mary is called hyperdulia. But true worship, offering up to God the perfect sacrifice of the mass and the thing most pleasing to God, Jesus in the Eucharist, we call Latria. Nothing on the planet is true unblemished “worship” (latria) except for the kind of worship Catholic get in offering Jesus up to God in the “remembrance” of the one true sacrifice on the cross in the Catholic Mass. Our Orthodox brethren also can do this since they have a valid apostolic priesthood like Catholics do that goes all the way back to St. Peter and Jesus in the upper room. This authority is only given to those who have a physical laying on hands from an original apostle that has been passed down continuously from bishop to new bishop over 20 centuries ago. No Protestant has this apostolic succession (though some Anglicans claim they still do - but this is not truthful since they lost theirs when King Henry VIII and his son King Edward took over their churches and instituted a new non-apostolic secular priesthood with new secular priestly ordination rites.

This is why I say that Protestants don’t offer even true worship as Catholics do since you don’t have a mass nor a divinely recognized apostolic priesthood.

So we are talking past each other when we use the word “worship” since it means different things to each of us.

So this person Luis you mention above when he says he is worshiping Mary is being honest but its not the same kind of worship that we give to God - it is a lower form of worship that is entirely appropriate and subordinate to God. Since this person is going to mass I presume every Sunday he is ALSO worshiping God properly in the mass. Since the mass worship is the highest form of worship it is impossible for this person to worship Mary at the same level he worships God. God is above all for ALL Catholics and true full worship is only offered to God.

There is absolutely NO divisions in the Catholic Church over worship as you imagine. If somone wants to worship Mary as higher or equal to God it is automatic excommunication and they are in mortal sin and will go to hell unless they repent and confess that sin.

As for Lous’ comments on Mary defeating Satan - this is a biblical expression in that the woman’s offspring in Genesis will crush Satan’s head. The original vulgate bible translation had elected to translate the genderless Greek text in the femine form to put the emphasis on the new Eve (Mary). But some bible put it on the new Adam (Jesus). The correct answer is that God working through cooperation with humanity (Mary represents humanity as the new Eve) brings forth His divine-human son, Jesus, to crush Satan. Mary is an absolutely vital part of that plan and this does not take anything away from Jesus or God. So Louis is correct that God uses Mary to crush Satan by her cooperating with God to birth Jesus. Many Catholics believe that it will Mary too that will crush all neo-Christian heresies - including Protestantism. 😉

*Genesis 3:15 (USCCB)
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

Genesis 3:15 ( Vulgagte-English)
"I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Note: She shall crush… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.*

Comprehende?

[continued]

James
 
[continued from above]
Something else I want to point out is that just like many Catholics that are Catholics just because that’s how they grew up and they are happy with that, there are protestants that r the same. Before coming to this site i had NO IDEA that it was the Catholic Church that put the Bible together. Nor did i know that the monasteries were the ones that defended the Holy Bible from fires, water, ect… so if you could cut back alittle on the judgements and realize that there is a real opportunity to open eyes.
OK - thanks for that tidbit of information. It is true that the Catholics have defended the bible against every imaginable form of heresy. Marcion (85-160 AD) was one of the worst and if not for the Catholic Church we would have no bible today. Marcion was one of the worst dangers to Christianity since he tried to write his own bible before the Catholic Church had collected all the original works of the gospel writers. He was destroying all Old Testament references to remove all Jewish influences and was modifying Pauline texts to strike all references to the OT and to sanitize Christianity from all Jewish influences. At this time the Catholic Church (the only true Christian Church ever in existence) relied on oral tradition for all its teachings and mass celebrations/worship. But when Marcion started revising Christ’s and the apostles teachings the Catholic Church was forced to publish its cannon and the first bible soon was published as a counter to his heresy. So, not only did Catholics preserve the original writings but being the only true Church we assembled the bible and saved Christianity from being hijacked by complete early impostors.

Ironically the bible stays intact for 1400 more years until the Protestant Revolution when Luther then attacks the bible again and tries to strip the epistle of James from the NT and as well strips out 7 important books from the OT. Protestants do not have the full written word of God to this day and this is why the Protestant heresy is resulting in 30,000+ new denominations all calling themselves Christian while teaching different things.

James
 
This syndrome is familar.

Many people deny that God chose to produce the New Testament and to promulgate the canon of Scripture through the Church, despite the historical facts, just so they don’t have to acknowledge the role of the Church in the propagation of the faith.

This is a downstream variation of the idea that God doesn’t need to become Man in order to save the world, therefore Jesus is not the Son of God.
Well… I try to remember to be patient with this mindset, as I once had it too:o

I believed, sincerely… That we have the Holy Bible, and that we know it is God’s Word. Any attempt to question “how” we got the Bible would be taking the focus somehow “off” of God, and onto the “men” He used as a means of giving it to us. I believed that He used fallible men to write His infallible scriptures, and that He did what He needed to make sure His Bible would be compiled and preserved…

But praise God, I learned that the answers for such questions do NOT take the focus away from God our savior. The “means” He used for giving us the Bible, were just as much…well…GIVEN by God as the Scriptures:) One huge step in this was the realization that the Church was making pronouncements on the TRUTH before we even had the canon of the NT… (Theotokos, for example…)
 
Well… I try to remember to be patient with this mindset, as I once had it too:o

I believed, sincerely… That we have the Holy Bible, and that we know it is God’s Word. Any attempt to question “how” we got the Bible would be taking the focus somehow “off” of God, and onto the “men” He used as a means of giving it to us. I believed that He used fallible men to write His infallible scriptures, and that He did what He needed to make sure His Bible would be compiled and preserved…

But praise God, I learned that the answers for such questions do NOT take the focus away from God our savior. The “means” He used for giving us the Bible, were just as much…well…GIVEN by God as the Scriptures:) One huge step in this was the realization that the Church was making pronouncements on the TRUTH before we even had the canon of the NT… (Theotokos, for example…)
I hear you. And I was pretty close to believing the Bible descended intact from Heaven: King James translation, Morocco leather cover, gilt edged India paper . . . When it finally dawned on me that the New Testament was, in fact, entirely a product of the Church (rather than the CAUSE of the Church) and that even the OT came to us via the Church – well, that was a real turning point in my Christian development.

For Protestants who want to hear about canonicity from a responsible Protestant, I recommend R. C. Sproul’s excellent treatment of the topic.
 
I seen you post a bunch of references to Queens from the bible.
This looks like a Queen to me, She also makes some great claims verse 30. I high lighted some notable points. On the surface She apears to be present to mankind. See verse 4 “ To you, O men, I call, And my voice is to the sons of men.
My questions is how does Mary fit or not fit here.

1 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet…”
This is Proverbs 8. God’s wisdom if often seen and heard in the feminine form and to Marian devotees we see Mary as the face of God’s wisdom in putting her complete trust in The Lord. We hear Mary’s voice in any of the wisdom literature and OT writings that relate to wisdom. God expresses himself both in the masculine and in the feminine and thus did He create humankind in His image as Adam and Eve and new Adam and new Eve - Jesus and Mary.

This is also why Catholics think of ourselves as a Holy Nation, a people set apart for God - a royal priesthood who are anointed in Christ as priest, prophets and royalty. We are children of the Divine Kingdom and our King is Jesus and our Queen is Mary - Queen Mother. The princes of The Church and The Kingdom are the great angels and saints - Michael, chief protector of The Kingdom, St. Joseph a prince of the heavenly court. All bishops are princes of the perpetual priesthood under the High Priest and King Jesus (in the order of Melchezdek). And so God’s Children are all royal members of that same royal household - which is God’s Church.

Wise is the person who can hear the voice of wisdom in scripture and discern her as their mother.

James
 
This syndrome is familar.

Many people deny that God chose to produce the New Testament and to promulgate the canon of Scripture through the Church, despite the historical facts, just so they don’t have to acknowledge the role of the Church in the propagation of the faith.

This is a downstream variation of the idea that God doesn’t need to become Man in order to save the world, therefore Jesus is not the Son of God.
That downstream variation you posted has no grounding in reason. God gave us the bible. Jesus is the Son of God. He came down to atone for the sins of mankind.

The Catholic Church does not control the decisions of God. They claim his work as their own many times. But the truth is He is God and will get the bible into the hands of who he will and he will save who he will.

God gave us the bible. After reading it I’m convinced that the prayer that is the topic of this thread is indeed worshipful of Mary and is therefore wrong.
 
That downstream variation you posted has no grounding in reason. God gave us the bible. Jesus is the Son of God. He came down to atone for the sins of mankind.

The Catholic Church does not control the decisions of God. They claim his work as their own many times. But the truth is He is God and will get the bible into the hands of who he will and he will save who he will.

God gave us the bible. After reading it I’m convinced that the prayer that is the topic of this thread is indeed worshipful of Mary and is therefore wrong.
Proverbs 3:5-6.

The Catholic Church has never claimed to “control the decisions of God” or “claim His work as their own.” How dare you slander us so! :eek:

God CHOSE to work through His Church. I don’t understand why this is such a threat to you or why you think this takes away from His glory. Was it a threat to God’s glory when He CHOSE to work through Abraham or Noah or the Levites or the nation of Israel or Paul or Peter? Of course not. Help me understand where you see a difference.

DD2007, I don’t know why you felt compelled to join CA, if your main goal is to insinuate that we’re heathens and refuse to accept any explanation we give you. 😦

May God bless you on your journey.

❤️ Love is Patient
 
That downstream variation you posted has no grounding in reason. God gave us the bible. Jesus is the Son of God. He came down to atone for the sins of mankind.

The Catholic Church does not control the decisions of God. They claim his work as their own many times. But the truth is He is God and will get the bible into the hands of who he will and he will save who he will.

God gave us the bible. After reading it I’m convinced that the prayer that is the topic of this thread is indeed worshipful of Mary and is therefore wrong.
Clearly from this empty rhetoric and projection of fallacy we can conclude that DD thinks he speaks for God and feels threatened by the historical facts.

God speaks and operates through His Church.

It would seem that DD believes that mere possession of the bible guarantees salvation. Isn’t that idolatry or fetishism?

God gave us common sense. And after entertaining your comments and reading your words I am convinced you are irrational and you worship your own opinion. That too is idolatry.

Shame on you.

James
 
Clearly from this empty rhetoric and projection of fallacy we can conclude that DD thinks he speaks for God and feels threatened by the historical facts.

God speaks and operates through His Church.

It would seem that DD believes that mere possession of the bible guarantees salvation. Isn’t that idolatry or fetishism?

God gave us common sense. And after entertaining your comments and reading your words I am convinced you are irrational and you worship your own opinion. That too is idolatry.

Shame on you.

James
You are completely wrong about what I believe. Also I have not attacked any individuals. You have attacked me.

I worship God alone and believe that he is revealed clearly in the Bible. I believe the bible teaches against idolatry. I believe Jesus taught us to pray to God.

I have clearly stated my position. I have nothing more to say about it.
 
You are completely wrong about what I believe. Also I have not attacked any individuals. You have atacked me.

I worship God alone and believe that he is revealed clearly in the Bible. I believe the bible teaches against idolatry. I believe Jesus taught us to pray to God.

I have clearly stated my position. I have nothing more to say about it.
DD, you have stated your position. We know what you believe. It is what it is. We’re not going to convince you to alter your convictions. (At least not right now 😉 ) So, I will simply leave you with a thought of mine. If you and I have both been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then we share a brotherhood with Christ. Since He is our Brother, we share the same Father and Mother. May she embrace us all in her loving arms, as she embraced Jesus, and bring peace and unity to the Body of Christ. 🙂
 
It would seem that DD believes that mere possession of the bible guarantees salvation. Isn’t that idolatry or fetishism?
Do tell what lead you to this false conclusion…
God gave us common sense. And after entertaining your comments and reading your words I am convinced you are irrational and you worship your own opinion. That too is idolatry.

Shame on you.

James
This post is downright uncharitable.
 
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