Hail, Holy Queen

[qui_est_ce]

I’ve never seen this happen here before. It happens at CF all the time though.

CA seems to be a lot more stable than the other forums.

It’s because you don’t use the /quote ] or the quote= ] Properly. If you used to quote= ] in a row with no /quote ] the first one will appear above the quote will appear as one quote

Notice there is a quote

 

[DD2007]

It’s because you don’t use the /quote ] or the quote= ] Properly. If you used to quote= ] in a row with no /quote ] the first one will appear above the quote will appear as one quote

Notice there is a quote

All I do is press the quote button?

 

[qui_est_ce]

All I do is press the quote button?

Once you get the hang of it, you’ll see. This is how the original message you quoted looked like:

quote=mercygate;4857090 ] quote=dd2007 ] (spaces added for visual) which resulted in looking like this:

DD2007:

Paul – not an eyewitness – received his apostolic commission from the Church at Damascus. Paul refers to the authority he conferred upon Timothy by the laying on of hands. The concept of Apostolic Succession is in Scripture
sage

the [x] alwaywas starts formatting and the /] always ends formatting. They have to pair.

When you “quote” this, you’ll see how they pair up.

 

[adrift]

The gates of Hell has not prevailed against the Church. That is why we have reformed Christianity. Idol worship is not allowed in reformed Christianity. We only worship God.

Therefore the gates of hell has not prevailed against it. The evidence that there have been attempts is evident in the denominations that do justify idol worship.

You still have not provided a definition for idol

 

[Junebug999]

The reason that Fr. Serpa gave such a weak answer is because he doesn’t have any other answers to make up in regards to that prayer. That prayer is indeed worshipful of Mary. To call her your life sweetness and hope is praise that should be reserved to God alone.

I believe that prayer is idolatrous and offends God.

The person who asked the question is right to have reservations and should use such convictions of the Spirit for the good and not commit idolatry.

Your comments I find offensive to God – that is Christ’s mother you are talking about – I would be very careful where you are going with that.

No one requires you to say a prayer you do not like, but you don’t need to blaspheme it. Just go your own way and pray the prayers you think you should.

 

[DD2007]

You still have not provided a definition for idol

An idol is anything you pray to that isn’t God. There is only one God. So if we worship something that isn’t Him it is idolatry.

 

[kobudodave]

I disagree with your definition of an idol.

I then question your definition of prayer.

A prayer, at least in the sense I use it, is the communication of thoughts and wishes to someone who has gone on from this plane, and onto the next, or to one already there ( God ). It is not a form of worship. I am not bowing down before the person. I am merely asking them to pray for me also. These that we pray to are just as alive as we are, through Christ, in whom we all have communion. It would be no different than for me to ask you to pray for me.

 

[DD2007]

I disagree with your definition of an idol.

I then question your definition of prayer.

A prayer, at least in the sense I use it, is the communication of thoughts and wishes to someone who has gone on from this plane, and onto the next, or to one already there ( God ). It is not a form of worship. I am not bowing down before the person. I am merely asking them to pray for me also. These that we pray to are just as alive as we are, through Christ, in whom we all have communion. It would be no different than for me to ask you to pray for me.

Luke 2:37
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

Prayer is a form of worship. It should be directed at God.

Here is how Jesus taught us to pray.

Matthew 6:5-13
[5] "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
[6] But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
[7] "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.
[8] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
[9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread;
[12] And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
[13] And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

 

[kobudodave]

The word used in Luke 2:37 for prayer is deh’-ay-sis, which means to entreat God, make supplication (making humble request). Not necessarily prayer.

The Greek reads literally this: ***and herself, a widow, even at the age of eighty-four, which never refrained from the temple fastings and supplications serving night and day. ***

That verse says nothing about praying as worship.

Also, if you are going to use the argument that the prayer Jesus taught us is the ONLY WAY to pray, then that must be the only prayer we are allowed to say as well. As well, this is only an example of how to pray, not the ONLY WAY to pray.

And, since we are asked to make prayers of intercession and thanksgiving for all people, why can’t we ask our brethren who have passed, and live on through Christ in heaven, who have perfected righteousness, to pray in supplication with us? Just because we ask them to pray in supplication for and with us, does not mean we worship them.

 

[ShellKell]

The reason that Fr. Serpa gave such a weak answer is because he doesn’t have any other answers to make up in regards to that prayer. That prayer is indeed worshipful of Mary. To call her your life sweetness and hope is praise that should be reserved to God alone.

I believe that prayer is idolatrous and offends God.

I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m sure that if Mary knows what people are doing in her name it is breaking her heart.

 

[broski234]

Luke 2:37
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

Prayer is a form of worship. It should be directed at God.

Here is how Jesus taught us to pray.

Matthew 6:5-13
[5] "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
[6] But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
[7] "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.
[8] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
[9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread;
[12] And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
[13] And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

I’m just curious. What does “Give us this day our daily bread” mean to you?

 

[CentralFLJames]

I couldn’t agree with you more. I’m sure that if Mary knows what people are doing in her name it is breaking her heart.

No, what breaks Mary’s heart is those who have divided themselves, the church and the word of God all against each other to make themselves feel self righteous when in fact they are in severe error and unless they repent of their sins, obey God’s Commandments (which includes being obedient to His appointed leaders) and confess their sins to an apostolic priest and worship God properly in a state of grace and partake of the Eucharist will go to hell.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

I’m just curious. What does “Give us this day our daily bread” mean to you?

It would appear the man takes it to mean ‘offer up the wild yeast of protest daily to Catholics’.

Not much different than bitter wine and gall really…

James

 

[broski234]

It would appear the man takes it to mean ‘offer up the wild yeast of protest daily to Catholics’.

Not much different than bitter wine and gall really…

James

ha ha

 

[ShellKell]

No, what breaks Mary’s heart is those who have divided themselves, the church and the word of God all against each other to make themselves feel self righteous when in fact they are in severe error and unless they repent of their sins, obey God’s Commandments (which includes being obedient to His appointed leaders) and confess their sins to an apostolic priest and worship God properly in a state of grace and partake of the Eucharist will go to hell.

James

Hi James
I have not divided anything. I go to a God fearing, Bible believing church that belongs to Christ. I don’t try to make myself look or feel self righteous, my only goal is to glorify God. I obey Gods commands as best as I can, and am obedient to the leader God appointed to the church I attend, as long as they don’t go against sacred scripture (Acts 17:11). I confess my sins to the one who died for them. I don’t see anywhere in Scripture that says I need to confess to a so call “Apostolic priest”.I also confess to my friends so that they might pray for me (James 5:16). We partake of Communion every week. If there is one person who knows it’s ALL ABOUT JESUS, it is certainly Mary and that is why her heart gets broken every time the focus in on her and not her son.

 

[DD2007]

No, what breaks Mary’s heart is those who have divided themselves, the church and the word of God all against each other to make themselves feel self righteous when in fact they are in severe error and unless they repent of their sins, obey God’s Commandments (which includes being obedient to His appointed leaders) and confess their sins to an apostolic priest and worship God properly in a state of grace and partake of the Eucharist will go to hell.

James

Actually that is man made error indoctrinated in an effort to get people to follow the teachings of an organized denomination within the Church instead of the teachings of the Apostles as recorded in scripture. We must always be vigilant that we are not being decieved into following man made traditions like the Pharisees or the pagans.

Mark 7:5-9
[5] And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with hands defiled?”
[8] You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men."
[9] And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition!

Colosians 2:8
[8] See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

We follow the traditions of the Apostles which are recorded for us in scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Those lucky brethren that got to hear Paul and the other apostles sermons were able to hold those traditions they heard directly from them. For us many generations removed we hold their traditions uncorrupted as we learned them from their writings. Since we are sure that these writing hold the only authentic apostolic direction we conclude that following them is the only honest way to follow the authentic teachings and traditions of the apostles.

So from these inspired Apostolic writings we hear this in regards to the gospel:

John 3:16
[16] For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-9
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
[9] not because of works, lest any man should boast.

However we can discern if we have been given saving faith by grace in that we will now be a new creature and will want to build up the kingdom of God and do things that promote the glory of God. If we don’t want to do these things we can be assured that our faith is dead which means that we might believe in the existance of God but have not been given the grace to have faith in him, to trust him with our souls. So faith without works is dead. So we must not be lazy in our joy but fruitful as the Lord wishes.

James 2:17
[17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

We are to worship in spirit and in truth

John 4:23-24
[23] But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
[24] God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

There is no need to fear if you trust in Jesus.

John 14:27
[27] Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.

Hebrews 13:6
[6] Hence we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper,
I will not be afraid;
what can man do to me?”

Revelation 7:17
[17] For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

 

[kobudodave]

Colosians 2:8
[8] See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

We follow the traditions of the Apostles which are recorded for us in scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Those lucky brethren that got to hear Paul and the other apostles sermons were able to hold those traditions they heard directly from them. For us many generations removed we hold their traditions uncorrupted as we learned them from their writings. Since we are sure that these writing hold the only authentic apostolic direction we conclude that following them is the only honest way to follow the authentic teachings and traditions of the apostles.

DD, your assumption is that the NT scriptures are the full recording of the traditions of the Apostles. I disagree. Paul says clearly in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 "the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

You also are not seeing that there were other letters written by Paul and Peter, possibly by others as well, that were lost in the course of time following their delivery to the Church in various areas. Paul mentions twice about earlier letters that we don’t see in the NT. What if those contained more of the traditions that the Apostles taught?

Not only that, but you are disregarding the fact that MULTIPLE people were subject to the traditions that Jesus and the Apostles taught. Thousands upon thousands. Now, with that many people holding to the SAME oral tradition, and carrying it on through the centuries, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and the Bible, you have a very effective system. Where as, with the Protestant faiths, you have MULTIPLE ways of seeing the scripture, with out any point of reference, other THAN the scripture. And at that point, everybody is interpreting it the way they see fit. Tradition held by so many is a very effective way of keeping interpretation straight forward from the very beginning. This is why Paul tells them to hold fast to the traditions they were taught by the apostles, whether by word of mouth, or by letter. The Catholic Church has both.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hi James
I have not divided anything. I go to a God fearing, Bible believing church that belongs to Christ. I don’t try to make myself look or feel self righteous, my only goal is to glorify God. I obey Gods commands as best as I can, and am obedient to the leader God appointed to the church I attend, as long as they don’t go against sacred scripture (Acts 17:11). I confess my sins to the one who died for them. I don’t see anywhere in Scripture that says I need to confess to a so call “Apostolic priest”.I also confess to my friends so that they might pray for me (James 5:16). We partake of Communion every week. If there is one person who knows it’s ALL ABOUT JESUS, it is certainly Mary and that is why her heart gets broken every time the focus in on her and not her son.

I am sorry to say Shellkell that you are living in an illusion of belief. If you went to a God fearing, bible believing church you would be in the Catholic Church.

Since you have identified yourself as a Protestant then you are not in The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Therefore you attend a secular ecclesial community with a congregation who have similar beliefs (but lack the fullness of God’s truth) and obey the teachings of a self-appointed man who took it upon himself to call himself a “man of God” or a “preacher”. But no one can be a priest of God without: 1: Being divinely called by God to be a Priest and 2: Being accepted, trained, proved and ordained into the priesthood by someone who himself already has the divine authority to ordain a priest. Only an apostolic bishop that can trace his apostolic priesthood succession all the way back to the apostle Peter can convey this spiritual authority on a new bishop or priest through a special apostolic blessing and ordination rite. Only then does a man become spiritually endowed with the spiritual authority and the powers to perform the priestly duties and roles of the ecclesial office (teaching with authority, effecting the sacraments and the sacrifice of the mass etc.).

There is only one Holy Priesthood established by Jesus Himself as High Priest. This is the Catholic Priesthood under the Order of Melchizedek (the highest priestly order in the universe - even higher than the Aaronic priesthood). “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchezdek”
Pslams 110:

A psalm of David. The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” 2 The scepter of your sovereign might the LORD will extend from Zion. The LORD says: “Rule over your enemies!
3 Yours is princely power from the day of your birth. In holy splendor before the daystar, like the dew I begot you.” 4 The LORD has sworn and will not waver: “Like Melchizedek you are a priest forever.” 5 At your right hand is the Lord, who crushes kings on the day of wrath, 6 Who, robed in splendor, judges nations, crushes heads across the wide earth, 7 Who drinks from the brook by the wayside and thus holds high the head.

So in effect you are being taught by a self appointed man who is not teaching with the authority of an apostle and who is not giving you the full apostolic gospel teaching and who has no blessings or divine authority to guide you on your walk to salvation. The bible has NO authority onto itself. Nor is it self teaching since this is proved by the widely different beliefs among Protestants. Clearly the Holy Spirit is NOT teaching Protestants since if He was, being the Spirit of Truth there would only be One Teaching and Just One Church. Ergo - you follow a teaching of man or else your own private scripture interpretation errors and can not properly worship God (just like Cain could not adequately worship God without knowing how and without having the proper interior state of grace and intent).

If your goal is to glorify God then you need to start bringing glory to God. To bring Glory to God you must call to mind the sacrifice of Christ in the memorial of the Mass and offer to God the ONLY pleasing thing to Him - His Dear Son.

I am sorry to say but Protestant “communion” is nothing more than a form of mere fellowship and the only miracle going on is that you all can come together with wildly different beliefs and all claim that is the “symbolic body of Christ” without also seeing that you are doing “symbolic worship” - not authentic worship.

Read here if you want to learn about the Apostolic Priesthood and where this authority is in dozens of scriptures:

APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION

and more: The Biblical Church

James

 

[kobudodave]

I would also like to point out, that the epistles did not hold much tradition with them. They were corrections to those congregations that were falling away from the traditions already taught. The epistles didn’t even cover every issue, only the things that the Apostles heard about.

To say that the Bible holds all the tradition we need, or even all the teachings we need is silly. There is no way that so few pages could hold the fullness of the teachings of Christ. Yes, they can be a reminder to us, they can be a teacher to us, they can be a way for us to obtain wisdom, but that doesn’t mean they are the ONLY rule of faith. And no where in the NT does it allude to that, or even suggest the it will all be written and that will be the end of it. There is nothing in scripture that says there is even an apostolic age. It would seem to disagree with that when it says God has appointed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then those who perform miracles, those who have gifts of healing, etc… It says nowhere that these will end either. Neither the apostles, or the prophets, or the miracles, or the gifts of healing.

Now, back to the point of this thread, the Hail Holy Queen prayer. Try not to think of it like a prayer. Because the word prayer has far to many other words in Latin and Greek that it can come from, each having a different meaning. The English language seems to simplify and put all of these words into one, such as prayer. Even the word love has had this done to it. When I say I love Ice Cream, it doesn’t mean I have emotional feelings for it. Likewise, when we pray to Mary, we do not worship her through prayer, we simply communicate our wish for her to intercede for us, just as we intercede for our brothers, just as Paul in 2 Timothy would have us do.

 

[DD2007]

DD, your assumption is that the NT scriptures are the full recording of the traditions of the Apostles. I disagree. Paul says clearly in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 "the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

You also are not seeing that there were other letters written by Paul and Peter, possibly by others as well, that were lost in the course of time following their delivery to the Church in various areas. Paul mentions twice about earlier letters that we don’t see in the NT. What if those contained more of the traditions that the Apostles taught?

Not only that, but you are disregarding the fact that MULTIPLE people were subject to the traditions that Jesus and the Apostles taught. Thousands upon thousands. Now, with that many people holding to the SAME oral tradition, and carrying it on through the centuries, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and the Bible, you have a very effective system. Where as, with the Protestant faiths, you have MULTIPLE ways of seeing the scripture, with out any point of reference, other THAN the scripture. And at that point, everybody is interpreting it the way they see fit. Tradition held by so many is a very effective way of keeping interpretation straight forward from the very beginning. This is why Paul tells them to hold fast to the traditions they were taught by the apostles, whether by word of mouth, or by letter. The Catholic Church has both.

Paul and the apostles preached sermons to people who heard them. They were able to be taught by word of mouth.

After the apostles deaths the only way anyone can receive apostolic teaching is by hearing or reading their writings. The apostles are no longer around to teach us anythign by word of mouth.

Paul was simply stating that what the apostles said was authoritative regardless if they wrote it or they said it.

This verse in no way means to take a sermon of the apostles and pass it on by word of mouth as tradition. Is anyone aware of any tradition that is binding on christians by apostolic authority that isn’t written down? No. All we have of the Apostles teachings is the New Testament. The RCC nor any other denomination has not any apostolic writings or directives besides the New Testament. It is the testament of the Apostles and is filled with the teachings entrusted to them by Christ and inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is the entire reason the Church is apostolic.