Hail, Holy Queen

[kaycee]

Simply put: when the books of the Bible were being written, Mary was still alive! She had not yet been assumed to heaven, thus not yet crowned as queen. Being the humble handmaid of the Lord, she probably wasn’t even expecting it, must less run around telling the apostles, hey, I’m going to be queen of heaven some day, so just watch yourself…

Mary must certainly have passed away before John wrote his epistles. I think he would have mentioned it!

As to “the utter lack of any mention of Mary and her role after the Virgin Birth”, or that Mary never went to a desert; well, for someone that relies only on the Bible, shouldn’t you know it just a wee bit better than that?

She is hardly mentioned after John the Baptist, baptizes Jesus. The ancient church knew nothing of the assumption. She was certainly a hero of the Faith, but not a central figure. She was not honored in the Hebrews hall of fame list of faith.

 

[NotWorthy]

Mary must certainly have passed away before John wrote his epistles. I think he would have mentioned it!

But John did mention it - in Revelation chapter 12!!!

She is hardly mentioned after John the Baptist, baptizes Jesus. The ancient church knew nothing of the assumption. She was certainly a hero of the Faith, but not a central figure. She was not honored in the Hebrews hall of fame list of faith.

Neither was John the Baptist, the greatest of the OT prophets.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Mary must certainly have passed away before John wrote his epistles. I think he would have mentioned it!

According to our Eastern Rite Catholics and Orthodox Christians, Mary did died, and when they went to her tomb, they could not find her body. It was a common agreement by the ECF that Mary was taken up by her son into heaven.

“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one…Had she been martyred according to what is written: ‘Thine own soul a sword shall pierce’, then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).

“[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones…” Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).

“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

“You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.” Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

She is hardly mentioned after John the Baptist, baptizes Jesus. The ancient church knew nothing of the assumption. She was certainly a hero of the Faith, but not a central figure. She was not honored in the Hebrews hall of fame list of faith.

She was mentioned (Acts 1:12-26), and mentioned again and addressed as woman clothed with the sun in Revelation 12:1. Mary was also at the foot of the cross.

I just quoted the ECF that Mary assumed.

 

[BigRedpg51]

Mother Mary is our ‘life’ – not in the literal sense, but in the spiritual sense. She is full of grace, and all life-giving grace flows through Her. Every grace that we have…comes from Mother Mary.

Mother Mary is our ‘hope’ because She is always there for us…even when we are in a state of serious or motal sin – and ashamed to face God – She is there guiding us and praying for us, pointing us back to Jesus, Her Son. She is the most powerful intercessor and friend that we have, next to Jesus that is.

 

[thubbell]

I guess its because Catholics kneel before statues of Mary and pray to her. Protestants only pray to and worship God only.

Dulia or Latria are slight semantical twists, but in practice there is basically no difference. Both are praying to God or the saints with requests.

Wow. Another brillo pad who needs a lesson in English. The Oxford Dictionary defines “pray” as to ‘beseech or ask earnestly; to beg or urge or consider’. If I said to you, “Kaycee, pray tell”, am I worshipping you? How about, “Kaycee, will you pray for me that I may heal from this illness?” I’m asking you to pray (to God) for me. This is no different from what believers of Mary do. Keywords here: “believers OF Mary” not IN.

*Semantics or not, you as a protestant see only what you wish to see of us Catholics, and you know not, to be honest, what is in the heart or mind of a person who drops to their knees in prayer in front of a statue or portrait of Our Lady or any other saint. We DO, in fact, know the difference between praying and worshipping. When I PRAY to Mary, I am ASKING her for her prayers. It’s no different than when I ask of my family and friends to pray for me. I will ask anyone to pray for me. Why can’t I ask of Christ’s mother? Will a good child ever refuse their parent? That’s how we see our ‘prayers’ to Mary. Christ so loved his mother that he shares her with us. *

And any child knows that another way to get to the Father is through the Mother. If you never knew of any child who didn’t employ that tactic as a kid, you must have been born an adult. But all aside, as Catholics, we are taught and do know that the Triune God is the one to worship. And we are taught to never forget that. I haven’t and neither have any of the other posters here. To say otherwise is a “bit rude”, don’t you think.

*An interesting aside - the late Queen Mother (of QEII) before her death was not THE Queen, but the mother of. Still she is referred to as the Queen Mother. Perhaps out of RESPECT??? *

 

[Mannyfit75]

Why is it that Non-Catholic Christians seem to think they know the hearts of Catholics when they prayed in front of the statues or icons?

How do you feel if I tell you worship a ceiling or wall, just because you had your hands raised up high? The charge is just as ridicules and makes no sense. I pointed this out in another thread.

 

[kaycee]

Both positions are true. The ECFs were not infallible; therefore, when you quote a Father who may not have fully agreed with a doctrine that the Church has come to embrace, we can forgive his error because he could not be expected to be perfect in all areas of theology. However, as a rule the ECFs were overwhelmingly and solidly orthodox Catholics.

Any easy assertion, much harder to back up in reality. Catholic yes, Roman Catholic, hmmmm

Kaycee, this is a hard fact you’ll have to accept: I can quote the Fathers as often as I want to support my positions because the majority of the Fathers held solidly Catholic positions. I can also ignore those small few that were “off the reservation” theologically precisely because they were ultimately overruled by the majority.

There’s not one thing you can do to change this fact.

Praise God we have their writings There were more than a few that are in line with protestant theology.

And there’s not one thing you can do to change that fact.

Actually, all you have is your own misinterpretation of scripture which causes you to misunderstand or misjudge infallible Church teaching.

Are you infallibly sure about that?

Thankfully, WE have an infallible God-breathed Church which interprets that God-Breathed scripture correctly.

Infallible God-breathed Church? Must be one of them non scriptural infallible teachings.

 

[kaycee]

But John did mention it - in Revelation chapter 12!!!

Rev chapt 12 is the Assumption???

 

[Mannyfit75]

nfallible God-breathed Church? Must be one of them non scriptural infallible teachings.

Randy will answer all the rest, but this I just had to reply. Yes, the God breathed on the Church. He in fact breathed on the Apostles.

John 20:22

When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained

The Apostles are member of the Church and yes, God, the infallible Creator breathed upon the Church.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Rev chapt 12 is the Assumption???

Yes it is. Let me quote:

And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars

Rev 12:1

How did this woman get there? She assumed. This woman is Mary because this woman gave birth to a male child who will rule all nations with an iron rod.

Let us take a look:
Rev 12:5:

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her **son was taken **up to God, and to his throne.

This passage refers to the Ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ because now the Son of God is at the Right Hand of God, his throne.

 

[kaycee]

“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one…Had she been martyred according to what is written: ‘Thine own soul a sword shall pierce’, then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).

Also from Epiphanius. The first mention of Mary and her death, 350 years after the fact and only conjecture!

"But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent [on the end of Mary] … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left [this matter] uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’ (Epiphanius, Panarion)

Quoting ECF’s 400 years after the time is hardly proof.

Popes Gelasius and Hormisdas condemns the spurious Gnostic document that talks about the assumption. The pope says that their authors and teachings and all who adhere to them are condemned and placed under eternal anathema which is indissoluble.

 

[NotWorthy]

Rev chapt 12 is the Assumption???

The Assumption, the Ark of the New Covenant, The Queen of Heaven, The New Eve, The Mother of all Christians - all roled up into one!!!

 

[promethius95945]

Popes Gelasius and Hormisdas condemns the spurious Gnostic document that talks about the assumption. The pope says that their authors and teachings and all who adhere to them are condemned and placed under eternal anathema which is indissoluble.

you really should learn about becoming anathema based on heretical teachings before you make a statement on it. If the heretical writers taught that the sky is blue, that doesn’t mean that everyone who believes the sky is blue is anathema… when a teaching is declared heretical, only that part which denies truth in favor of error must be avoided.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Also from Epiphanius. The first mention of Mary and her death, 350 years after the fact and only conjecture!

"But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent [on the end of Mary] … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left [this matter] uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’ (Epiphanius, Panarion)

Quoting ECF’s 400 years after the time is hardly proof.

Popes Gelasius and Hormisdas condemns the spurious Gnostic document that talks about the assumption. The pope says that their authors and teachings and all who adhere to them are condemned and placed under eternal anathema which is indissoluble.

Epiphanius made no condemnation of the assumption of Mary or her being taken up into heaven. He only stated that “her end no one knows.”

Pope Gelasius did condemned those Gnostic Gospels but not the Assumption of Mary or her falling asleep. If that where so, then Christians then would not have celebrated the feast day. Yet, we see in both Western Christians (Catholic and Orthodox celebrate Mary’s feast day (Assumption for Catholics and Dormition for Orthodox). Those Gnostic Gospels are not even in the Catholic Canon of Scripture so it bears nothing at all.

The Feast of the Dormition or Falling Asleep of the Theotokos commemorates the death, resurrection, and glorification of Christ’s mother. To help us in our preparation of the feast, it is preceded by a two week fast. As with the Nativity of the Virgin (September 8/21) and the feast of her Entrance to the Temple (November 21/December 4), the Feast of the Dormition also comes from the Tradition of the Church.

There we learn that Mary died as all people die because she had a mortal human nature affected by the corruption of this world. The Church proclaims that Mary needed to be saved by Christ just as all of us are saved from trials, sufferings, and death of this world. Having truly died, she was raised by her Son as the “Mother of Life” and already participates in the eternal life of paradise which is prepared and promised to all who “hear the word of God and keep it.” (Luke 11:27-28) Finally, we celebrate the fact that what happens to Mary happens to all who imitate her holy life of humility, obedience and love.

It is important to remember that there are no relics of the Theotokos. Their existence has never been mentioned throughout history. At one time in Constantinople there was a center of pilgrimage where the belt and veil of the Virgin were venerated.

Adapted from The Orthodox Church, Volume II: Worship, by Fr. Thomas Hopko.

theologic.com/oflweb/feasts/08-15.htm

In the Western Rite, we called it Assumption of Mary.

 

[kaycee]

Wow. Another brillo pad who needs a lesson in English. The Oxford Dictionary defines “pray” as to ‘beseech or ask earnestly; to beg or urge or consider’. If I said to you, “Kaycee, pray tell”, am I worshipping you? How about, “Kaycee, will you pray for me that I may heal from this illness?” I’m asking you to pray (to God) for me. This is no different from what believers of Mary do. Keywords here: “believers OF Mary” not IN.

I think its a bit more than that, dont you?

“O mother of Perpetual help, thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God grants to us miserable sinners, Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee, In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do i entrust my soul.” :bigyikes:

*Semantics or not, you as a protestant see only what you wish to see of us Catholics, and you know not, to be honest, what is in the heart or mind of a person who drops to their knees in prayer in front of a statue or portrait of Our Lady or any other saint. We DO, in fact, know the difference between praying and worshipping. When I PRAY to Mary, I am ASKING her for her prayers. It’s no different than when I ask of my family and friends to pray for me. I will ask anyone to pray for me. Why can’t I ask of Christ’s mother? Will a good child ever refuse their parent? That’s how we see our ‘prayers’ to Mary. Christ so loved his mother that he shares her with us. *

Christ so loved the World! “Who can separate us from the Love of God?” Our only mediator to God IS Jesus. Applying human characteristics to Jesus, Mary and God in heaven based on human parental affection is not a basis for doctrine.

And any child knows that another way to get to the Father is through the Mother. If you never knew of any child who didn’t employ that tactic as a kid, you must have been born an adult. But all aside, as Catholics, we are taught and do know that the Triune God is the one to worship. And we are taught to never forget that. I haven’t and neither have any of the other posters here. To say otherwise is a “bit rude”, don’t you think.

Watching little sinners try to get away with murder by playing on moms feelings is not a good basis for theology, is it?

 

[LilyM]

Watching little sinners try to get away with murder by playing on moms feelings is not a good basis for theology, is it?

And watching sons get angry and jealous when their mothers or siblings are paid attention isn’t either.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think its a bit more than that, dont you?

“O mother of Perpetual help, thou art the dispenser of all the goods which God grants to us miserable sinners, Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee. Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself to thee, In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do i entrust my soul.”

Is common for you to use our prayers against us? What kind of Christian charity is that?

The prayer itself doesn’t negate God. It merely ask Mary to offer oneself to her to be petition to her son. Much like Jewish Queen of OT who petition to the king 1 Kings 2:17, 20, 1 Kings 2:18, 1 Kings 2:19, 1 Kings 15:13, 2 Chron. 22:10, & Neh. 2:6.

Since Jesus inherited the kingdom given to him from his Father David, he inherited a kingdom where he is King and His Mother as queen. The queen is the powerful intercessor, this is seen in Neh 2:6. The King does not refuse his mother as stated in 1 Kings 2:17, 20.

The Catholic Church veneration to Mary is her relationship with Jesus Christ. We do not veneration without her son.

kaycee, you seen to have a problem with Mary. I think you should at least try to understand it not condemned our veneration. You can disagree but at least try to understand.

Christ so loved the World! “Who can separate us from the Love of God?” Our only mediator to God IS Jesus. Applying human characteristics to Jesus, Mary and God in heaven based on human parental affection is not a basis for doctrine.
Watching little sinners try to get away with murder by playing on moms feelings is not a good basis for theology, is it?

The Catholic Church acknowledges that Jesus is our one mediator.

CCC

480 Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Mary must certainly have passed away before John wrote his epistles. I think he would have mentioned it!

She is hardly mentioned after John the Baptist, baptizes Jesus. The ancient church knew nothing of the assumption. She was certainly a hero of the Faith, but not a central figure. She was not honored in the Hebrews hall of fame list of faith.

Perhaps you will name for us a single NT-era person who is included in that list? Or concede that Paul didn’t include anyone of his own contemporaries (Mary included) in that list. Don’t play cheap parlor tricks with us, Kaycee. :tsktsk:

However, imagine the Apostles sitting around in the upper room waiting for the Holy Spirit to overshadow them all as Jesus promised…Mary was the only one there who had been overshadowed once before.

I bet she had a thing or two to tell the boys…

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[TarlsQtr]

How many times do some people need explanations regarding Catholics and the veneration (not worship) of Mary? Why isn’t it apparently “soaking in”?

Because admitting we are right means admitting they are wrong.

It is much easier to debate the false propaganda spread about Catholics than it is to debate their actual theology.

No need to worry though. The earliest Catholics were accused of being cannibals, so this is nothing in comparison.

 

[TarlsQtr]

Kaycee,

Care to tell us yet how your comment about Jesus being rude to Mary was not borderline blasphemy in light of the 5th Commandment? (post 35)

Care to explain why Jesus would be “rude” to Mary the very minute he was asking John to care for her after his death?

Just curious why you failed to answer these relevant questions.

God Bless,

Jeff